That's where I was going wrong, here I thought they were just useless and the main character did all the damage. If I had but known.

You know what would have made it simpler, if instead of controlling one character and doing tiny amounts of damage until you get to do something significant, after a short time, you just could do like an attack or magic without mashing square but for all characters instead.

Abilities didn't need MP, prayer didn't need MP. Braver was not even a limit. All free damage and healing. And I can't speak about Zelda or RE but GoW wasn't a stagger like FF. In FF you wail on the enemy until you can do actual damage, this is for basic enemies too, not just bosses. GoW has a meter that means you can execute an enemy but you can still just hit them 4 o4 5 times and they die, not 100 times before you can do 500 3 times.

Isn't what you're suggesting basically the battle system of FF11 and FF12?

I don't think they could have charged MP for abilities for balance reasons (also the possibility of being essentially soft-locked out of a stagger if you ran out of MP).

GoW can be a lot like FF7R in the higher difficulties. You basically need the stun meter/stun grabs to do significant damage to bosses and even some elite mooks. Not that it makes it much fun, mind.

Does the game not have a 'classic' mode which gives you the option of doing just that.

You were saying your faviourite system was FF10-2? which was a continuation of the ATB from previous games. That was essentially turn based combat. The problem with turn based combat in this modern era of consoles is that it involves the player holding the controller and waiting for the combat engine to load the next turns. This was one of FF12's biggest problems; it requires a lot of customisation and micromanagment of 'gambits' but the player could be sitting there watching the game play itself.

These gameplay systems were left behind when FF15 and transitioned the gameplay into real time action combat. Personally I don't think Square Enix could get the combat right since FF10 on PS2.

FF7 Remake changed things dramatically because instead of holding your controller and waiting for the ATB to load you have to create your turns by attacking, blocking and evading in real time. The player is never disengaged by the fight. The combat is also designed so you can't have the same character use something like Knights of Round indefintely. Its designed so you have to customise and plan you loadouts appropriately, exploiting enemy weaknesses into pressuring them.

Its a lot more tacitcal than previous games because in older Final Fantasy's you could use the same attack over and over to defeat an enemy, you will struggle to do that here unless you read the enemy's weaknesses and exploit the enemy's movement patterns. Its a combination of real time and turn based combat.

Combat wise I would love to see a hybrid of XII, XIII and VII R.

XIII- Broad Team wide tactics/paradigms (not every input being selected) and have combat keeping an eye on all team members unlike VII's and XVI's tendency for people to go off and have their own combat with little input from the player.

XII- Ability to have very specific influence on individual character behaviour (gambits) but unlike XII's gambits having a more simplified real time implementation of this and not everything being done before battle.

VII- Controlling character placement/positioning playing a role, being able to jump to any character on the fly, key skills being selected through slow motion, some reflexive input for lead character.

Yeah, now you are getting it. 

So imagine stagger now with basic enemies that are just there for the grind. Enemies that used to take a few hits or a couple of lightning casts.

Classic mode on FF7Remake is not the classic ATB. Not only was it set to "easy" by default, it's playing itself. LITERALLY. The game was designed and balanced around the idea you are controlling the character and mashing square, when in classic it's the computer doing that, it still has to do all the tiny amounts of damage to build up the turn meters but now at the slow pace. All you do is do the big moves, you don't tell it to attack or when to block or dodge like you would in actual ATB Final Fantasy, it does that. 

X-2's ATB was very suited for how it works with it's magic system and arenas. Characters were not fixed to a spot, doing attacks were quicker and could be chained for increased damage but abilities took longer and needed charging but did better damage, it wasn't 'essentially' a turn based, it was the ATB. 

And holding the controller and pressing square over and over is any better? How bored are you with gaming that you need constant satisfaction of minuscules amounts of damage to make it worth while? When playing FF games, you don't just stare into space for 2 minutes between turns. Timers continue, while one character is doing an action, the enemy is planning theirs and you can chose the action of your next character, from a menu by the time you've done that, guess what? Another characters action is available.

A lot more tactical is beating the final boss by maxing out Tifa attack gloves, spamming 1 move of hers (that seemed to give her invul frames) and having Barret spam Prayer? I guess. 

Being able to beat enemies with Knights of the Round (ignoring the fact it costs 250MP so you can't spam it) was a reward for end game grinding. 

Just to chime in on the battle system. Final Fantasy has had the same problem with its battle system since 13; That problem is the Stagger mechanic. I don't understand why the development team continues to carry on this mechanic. Instead of doing minimal damage until you stagger the enemy and then doing normal damage, they should have normal damage and if you manage to stagger the enemy (make staggers a little difficult to do) then super big damage. That would satisfy both groups and it would make the system much more satisfying. I also think that every enemy should have multiple ways to stagger it and do away with overly specific stagger requirements (only can be pressured when the clock is at has a 7 in its digits). I'm sick Final Fantasy wanting EVERY fight to be some epic battle. I miss being rewarded with curb stomps because I got Beta before It was intended to or raga magic, ext.

To add something here here, in the original FF7 you had HP-MP switching materia so you could have 9999MP if you wanted. Then theres Mime materia, then on top of that theres only 2 enemies in the game that could withstand Knights of Round. So there were a lot of exploits avaliable to allow you to spam Knights of Round indefintely. Knights of Round is also a very long animation, so I'm not sure why you would want to watch this over and over again...

I'm not sure about 'classic' mode because I haven't played it, I've only played the game on normal and dynamic. I have finished FF7 Remake on hard mode. I can tell you there is no pressing sqaure over and over again. The gameplay dosen't work like that. The combat takes places in a 3D space including air combat. So theres a lot of mobility to the movement of the character. You can and should dodge out of the way of the enemies attacks. Theres also blocking the enemy, which works as a parry if you do it at the right moment. This is almost essential if you want to build certain character guages. Then theres the synergy skills, three of which aren't mapped on the square button. All of these real time actions are required to build the ATB. So I'm not sure where this idea has come from that you press sqaure continuously during combat...

"...while one character is doing an action, the enemy is planning theirs and you can chose the action of your next character, from a menu by the time you've done that, guess what? Another characters action is available"

Thats right, but what your doing is selecting an action from a menu, you the player can't perform that action in real time, additionally when the enemy performs their action you have to watch the animation. There isn't anyway to block or evade the enemy's action in real time.

I can't fathom how anyone can play FF7R and not end up at least "respecting" the incredibly player-involving and dynamic combat system. It was already great in Remake, but Rebirth took it closer to perfection.

I get not "preferring" it. It can get really chaotic and I tend to dislike chaotic combat myself. I'm also conflicted about the stagger mechanic. I like that it's another thing that you have in the back of your mind as you manage your ATB/Limit etc. I don't like the "all out attack" that follows for max damage, just too chaotic and ugly. Furthermore, I'm allergic to characters talking and screaming nonstop. I wish we were given the option to lower the frequency of talking, and another option to omit damage numbers for the characters I'm not directly controlling (it's sometimes hard to make out the damage numbers of my own attacks). Camera/targeting system could see some improvements as well, but it's generally good enough.

Yeah there are some exploits and cheese that will make the game easier or less enjoyable than intended, but this kinda goes for all games (Hell I finished FF6, my RPG GOAT, with self imposed handicaps. No leveling up, no magic, no Runic etc). And Rebirth did address a lot of the flaws found in Remake.

I played all mainline FF games except 11, 13 and 15 (not counting demos). And to me, Rebirth's combat is the best in the series, and the hardest excluding perhaps 14 on harder difficulties. Granted old school ATB has its own charm and can't be directly compared with 14's or Remake/Rebirth's systems. I still have my gripes especially regarding direction/plot, but I think what Square accomplished with Rebirth is nothing less than incredible. Sometimes I genuinely can't believe this game is real.

Yeah, I've mentioned stagger before and people seem to defend it because "other games have it". It's just a bad mechanic and it hides the fact they can't balance damage. 

Yes. Because it's an action game. This isn't the fact the action game is bad, it's the fact it's an action (real time) game at all. Why is there a dodge roll in Final Fantasy? 

I have said before that the gameplay is good and that if it wasn't called FF7 and was just a new game with new characters and story, I might have been well into it as a stand alone game. I say to friends that the issue for me isn't these games are bad quality, you'd be an idiot to argue that. To me FF13, 15, FF7R, they aren't bad games, they are just bad Final Fantasy games.

That comes across as you just don't liking action RPGs to the point of one of them having Final Fantasy in the name irrationally ruins the experience for you.

Sorry, but this ship has long since sailed, and the combat system of the Remake trilogy is the most consensually acclaimed by critics and players alike since FF9, so it'll probably stick around.

I would have recommended Octopath Traveler in that case but that game has a stagger-like mechanic too...