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Forums - Politics Discussion - Russia and Ukraine flashpoint

Jaicee on 26 February 2022

The most recent American poll since Russia's invasion of Ukraine addressing the subject at all finds that 64% of registered voters said Biden is "too lenient" with Russia, while 31% said he handles Russia "just right". Just 5% said he's "too tough". Not a lot of ambiguity there.

Just wanted to clarify what the view from here actually is because I feel like one might've gotten confused by all the praise that's been heaped on my president's ostensibly stellar leadership skills throughout this crisis here on this thread. My sentiments expressed back on this thread's first page, in other words, are hardly outside the mainstream of public opinion here in the U.S. And this survey was concluded one day BEFORE the Kremlin expanded its invasion of Ukraine to encompass the entire country at that.

A separate survey conducted around the same time frame finds that Americans' opinions of Russia have now returned to Cold War levels of skepticism, with 80% viewing it as an "unfriendly" or "enemy" state.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 26 February 2022

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Qwark on 26 February 2022

Putin already attacked Moldavia too, a naval ship but still. Well not that anyone is stopping him. The EU has a military so weak except for France and UK that Russia, could conquer whole Western and Eastern Europe before their US saviours would be here. Perhaps we should have paid the 2 percent tax.



Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar

barneystinson69 on 26 February 2022
Jaicee said:

The most recent American poll since Russia's invasion of Ukraine addressing the subject at all finds that 64% of registered voters said Biden is "too lenient" with Russia, while 31% said he handles Russia "just right". Just 5% said he's "too tough". Not a lot of ambiguity there.

Just wanted to clarify what the view from here actually is because I feel like one might've gotten confused by all the praise that's been heaped on my president's ostensibly stellar leadership skills throughout this crisis here on this thread. My sentiments expressed back on this thread's first page, in other words, are hardly outside the mainstream of public opinion here in the U.S. And this survey was concluded one day BEFORE the Kremlin expanded its invasion of Ukraine to encompass the entire country at that.

A separate survey conducted around the same time frame finds that Americans' opinions of Russia have now returned to Cold War levels of skepticism, with 80% viewing it as an "unfriendly" or "enemy" state.

Let me ask if you have skepticism towards Biden; what more is he supposed to do? I can envision the answer, but I'm curious what you have to say. Boots on the ground is out of the question.



Made a bet with LipeJJ and HylianYoshi that the XB1 will reach 30 million before Wii U reaches 15 million. Loser has to get avatar picked by winner for 6 months (or if I lose, either 6 months avatar control for both Lipe and Hylian, or my patrick avatar comes back forever).

HoangNhatAnh on 26 February 2022
EpicRandy said:
forest-spirit said:

Putin most likely didn't expect the Ukrainians to fight back this hard. Even if Ukraine falls (which, unfortunately is likely to happen) it won't be the glorious victory he had been hoping for.

Yep, this is also what I think. I would add that Ukraine falling does not necessarily mean victory for Russia. The way I see it is every tanks, helicopter, plane they lost and every casualties they endure comes at a great cost which reduce their ability to occupy the land afterward. This compounded with the fact that their ability to finance themselves are greatly crippled make's it only a matter of time before Ukraine slip from Russian grasp once more. 

In all scenario that I can think of, Russia only end up loosing in the end as even with total capitulation from Ukraine the cost would still vastly outweighs benefits and eventually Ukraine will rise again independent weather it's in a year or 10 years or more. Once that happens nothing else other than casualties and socio-economics impacts will be left for Russia. 

Ryuu96 said:
HoangNhatAnh said:

Maybe no to you, but yes to us. We - Vietnamese - know how dangerous US are since their invasion in the past.

And Nato was created to deal with Russia and their allies.

What went on in Vietnam is frankly irrelevant to what is going on now, yes, the Vietnam War was wrong but it is an entirely different scenario, it is ridiculous to compare Vietnam to Russia, to compare invading a country like Vietnam to invading frigging Russia, an absolute massive army, a nuclear capable country that has the potential to nuke most of the West, it's a ridiculous comparison, I'll repeat again to be extra clear that nobody wants a war with a nuclear capable country.

You're right and now there's 30 members in NATO...With even more being convinced into joining thanks to Russian aggression, maybe we aren't the problem here? I know America did wrong to Vietnam but you are letting that anger blind you and going as far to defend Russia of all countries, a country which is INVADING a sovereign country, they have the right to choose who they want to ally themselves with.

How would you feel if Russia invaded Vietnam, killed thousands of your people, destroyed your cities, to 'protect' you from America? C'mon dude, you should know better than anyone. Your country was invaded and of course that upsets you so why are you defending the invader in this scenario?!

Putin warned them many times, but they ignored it. Now he has no choice but does what is necessary for his country before Nato/US have any chance to threat Moscow.

Barozi said:
HoangNhatAnh said:

Maybe no to you, but yes to us. We - Vietnamese - know how dangerous US are since their invasion in the past.

And Nato was created to deal with Russia and their allies.

Your double standards are hilarious.

Russia is invading another country right now!

I bet you would care if that country was Vietnam and not Ukraine.

Vietnam isn't an ungrateful like Ukraine. Lenin to Ukraine is Ho Chi Minh to Vietnam. 

What you said reminded me of US, when they suddenly attacked Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and Lybia.

Pemalite said:
HoangNhatAnh said:

Ukraine shares the border with Russia, when they join Nato, US will have the right to put their army at Ukraine, it's very near Moscow - a big threat to Russia. As a leader, Putin must act to protect Russia.

No closer than Belarus. - Still 800kilometers/500 miles.

Russia want's Ukraine for it's resources to be self sufficient.

Either way, NATO is and will always be on Russias doorstep, it's just a political excuse to justify certain actions to placate people.

In Vietnam, people hate war, but many people also understand the reason why Putin attacked Ukraine, so we don't side with either. We feel sory for innocent people in Ukraine, but they also made a big mistake for voting a comic actress as their leader. That's what Vietnamese have been said in many forums. When it come to politic, the safety and the benefit of one country can't be taken lightly.

Also, Belarus is Russia's ally, quite different.

~Thread Banned - Ryuu96

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 26 February 2022

Branko2166 on 26 February 2022
Ryuu96 said:
KratosLives said:

The usa and allies are at fault here. Biden especially rushed in with talks of sanctions, talking of this and that, calling russia names. Then borris did the same. Instead of calming the situation, they hurried and made it happen.

E veryone tried to act all defiant, instead of any respect or concern .They should have taken putin seriously and ukraine president should have tried to make a compromise atleast to prevent war. Now they failed, all for what? Stubborness and defiance.

Ukraine should have kept as a strong ally to russia, if not neutral but leaning closer to russia. Getting themselves closer to usa and nato was never going to go well for them.

Lmao.

I'm not sure why I'm bothering entertaining these posts, it's absolutely ridiculous that we still have folk rushing in to take a bullet for Putin, I would bet these same defences would be used in regards to Nazi Germany too if y'all lived back then, a certain group of people are so desperate to criticise either the West or a certain Political faction for anything that you literally post nonsensical deflections like this which completely miss the point in an indirect defence of a dictator who is invading another country and I've seen this on both the Left and Right, you're all looking ridiculous.

It's complete horseshit, Russia's aggressive actions leading up to the invasion were plain to see for anyone, everything the US said would happen, happened, they were very clearly the aggressors but we can't talk of possible sanctions? Sanctions which we only applied once they invaded! We have to say "Please stop doing that Mr Putin" as if that would accomplish anything to someone like Putin, we have asked him nicely before. Oh no! Biden called Putin a bad name! The horror! I honestly think Biden and Boris handled the lead up to this mostly fine and I f*cking hate Boris, the only one who was escalating this situation was Russia by using the threat of invasion as a bargaining chip.

Our concern is for Ukraine, a country which is being invaded right now by a disgusting Hitler wannabe and we have taken Putin more seriously lately by enacting harsh sanctions on him, Ukraine's President shouldn't have to feel like he should make any compromises when all the compromises were bullshit which essentially threw away Ukraine's independence, right to govern themselves and choose their own path.

Ukraine has not failed, they stood up to a dictator, their bravery will be remembered, they are fighting for their country, they have my respect, if we applied this nonsense logic to WW2 then we would have a world where Nazi Germany was now in control of half the globe but thankfully back then we stood up to evil and Ukraine is standing up to evil now.

The only one who was pushing Ukraine away from Russia was Russia with their constant threats. There is only one bad guy in this situation, the only one at fault is the country which is invading another country, I don't know how many times I have to point that out, I don't know how anyone can sanely look at this situation of a country brutally invading another and blame the West, it's beyond belief.

Russia is clearly the aggressor in terms of international law. However we must be mindful that actions taken by all nations do not exist in a vacuum. While it is perfectly fine and accurate for the West to criticise Russia and to enact whatever sanctions and countermeasures they deem fit, many western states are guilty of the same crimes on more than one occasion. Consistently, powerful states have sidestepped international law when it was convenient to do so in order to promote their interests. Examples include Iraq, Libya and Syria amongst others. 

In a perfect world sovereignty would be sacrosanct and the right of self-determination respected. However, it is at best foolish and at worst disingenuous to argue that most states can choose what they want without regard to the great powers. This is realpolitik, and the political outrage expressed by politicians is mostly theatre used to boost opinion polls. No matter what we may feel morally or emotionally, powerful states will continue to assert their interests over weaker states in order to bring about the desired outcome. Let there be no doubt, this is simply a contest between two powerful military blocs, and Ukraine is being sacrificed on the altar of said geopolitical battle. To illustrate the limits of the Western reaction, at least for now, none of the sanctions are limiting the key resources that Russia exports i.e. oil, gas and agricultural goods.    

On another important note, the one that stands to benefit the most from this is China. The West's primary focus will shift at least for some time to Russia, while China integrates Russia's economy under its overall umbrella. Many of the manufactured items that Russia will now be unable to procure from the West will now have to be sourced elsewhere. The most likely outcome will be an increase of Chinese exports into the Russian market. Meanwhile on the strategic level, the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation and in particular the bilateral relationship of China and Russia may begin to evolve into one that contains many characteristics of an informal military alliance. All of this while China continues its breakneck military build up. So in a sense, Ukraine is just the tip of the iceberg.

 



 

 

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dark_gh0st_b0y on 26 February 2022

God, I always try to respect other people's opinions but on this matter I just can't accept any justification or even neutrality on Putin's actions

Ukraine is a independent country by international law - the days of the USSR are over, it is also a democracy, and therefore they have the right to join anything they want, including NATO and the EU, they have the right to move towards what seems best for their future

if Russia feels NATO is getting too close, they can reinforce defence from within their borders



don't mind my username, that was more than 10 years ago, I'm a different person now, amazing how people change ^_^

SecondWar on 26 February 2022
INCITATUSBR said:

Chinese and Indians must be ashamed of their countries' abstention in UN resolution.

China absenting is almost the equivalent of them voting in favour in context - given that them voting no would cause the vote to fail as they have a veto. I say almost as they knew full well that Russia, who also had a veto, would vote against it.

But the outcome of the vote show the broken system in the UN, given how Russia vetoed action against themselves.



Barozi on 26 February 2022
dark_gh0st_b0y said:

God, I always try to respect other people's opinions but on this matter I just can't accept any justification or even neutrality on Putin's actions

Ukraine is a independent country by international law - the days of the USSR are over, it is also a democracy, and therefore they have the right to join anything they want, including NATO and the EU, they have the right to move towards what seems best for their future

if Russia feels NATO is getting too close, they can reinforce defence from within their borders

or you know... move their capital closer inland like so many other nations have already done it (for various reasons).

Some of them include: Brazil, Nigeria, Pakistan and uh.. Russia

https://www.prlib.ru/en/history/619089



SanAndreasX on 26 February 2022
Barozi said:
dark_gh0st_b0y said:

God, I always try to respect other people's opinions but on this matter I just can't accept any justification or even neutrality on Putin's actions

Ukraine is a independent country by international law - the days of the USSR are over, it is also a democracy, and therefore they have the right to join anything they want, including NATO and the EU, they have the right to move towards what seems best for their future

if Russia feels NATO is getting too close, they can reinforce defence from within their borders

or you know... move their capital closer inland like so many other nations have already done it (for various reasons).

Some of them include: Brazil, Nigeria, Pakistan and uh.. Russia

https://www.prlib.ru/en/history/619089

Yep. St Petersburg was the capital of the Russian Empire. Moscow was the capital of the Soviet Union. They can always move the capital further inland to Yekaterinberg or Novosbirsk.

Or... and hear me out, I know it sounds crazy... Russia's government could stop acting in such a way that its neighbors won't feel the need to protect themselves by joining alliances like NATO. 

@Ryuu96: I guess it's early still, but it's starting to look like Putin seriously fucked up on this one. His troops are already starving and cold, and it's becoming more clear that at least some of them didn't understand what they were getting into. They clearly weren't expecting the Ukrainians to be so tenacious, especially President Zelensky himself. Hungry soldiers tend to not be loyal soldiers. 

A good ending to this war would be Vladimir Putin either swinging from a gallows or blindfolded in front of a firing squad. 



Dulfite on 26 February 2022
SanAndreasX said:
Barozi said:

or you know... move their capital closer inland like so many other nations have already done it (for various reasons).

Some of them include: Brazil, Nigeria, Pakistan and uh.. Russia

https://www.prlib.ru/en/history/619089

Yep. St Petersburg was the capital of the Russian Empire. Moscow was the capital of the Soviet Union. They can always move the capital further inland to Yekaterinberg or Novosbirsk.

Or... and hear me out, I know it sounds crazy... Russia's government could stop acting in such a way that its neighbors won't feel the need to protect themselves by joining alliances like NATO. 

@Ryuu96: I guess it's early still, but it's starting to look like Putin seriously fucked up on this one. His troops are already starving and cold, and it's becoming more clear that at least some of them didn't understand what they were getting into. They clearly weren't expecting the Ukrainians to be so tenacious, especially President Zelensky himself. Hungry soldiers tend to not be loyal soldiers. 

A good ending to this war would be Vladimir Putin either swinging from a gallows or blindfolded in front of a firing squad. 

Even if Russia was peaceful, nations would still want to be part of NATO because of threats like China, North Korea, Iran, Cuba. Especially with the development of hypersonic missiles, ocean distance means very little now days. But a defensive pact that tells the world if you attack one of us you attack all of us still holds a lot of weight. 

Finland and Sweden better join NATO quick. They are much more under threat of invasion by Russia in the "considering" phase than they would be if in NATO. Russia's war inexperience is showing in Ukraine, whereas NATO nations have been fighting in the middle east and Afghanistan very recently and for many years and become very experienced. Fresh armies usually have tons of casualties.