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Forums - Sales Discussion - Global Hardware July 4-10 - PS5 Sales Top 10 Million

curl-6 said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:

Agree that graphics ar e scalable and CPU is just a little downclocked, the critically crippled part is RAM size, 10GB instead of 16GB is a >30% shrink, and in the mid and long term, with 16GB already cheaper enough per GB than 8GB to make a 16GB PC just a few euros more expensive than a 8GB one and so becoming the norm, multiplats will become less and less comfortable with less than 16GB RAM. Yes, you could cut a couple GB considering consoles lightweight OS and less services and additional SW running than on PC, you could cut another two GB limiting max RAM used by the less powerful GPU, but in a 16GB+ PC world, 12GB becomes the bare minimum for modern consoles, cutting another two GB wasn't a brilliant move, for a really puny cost reduction MS took a great risk of making devs start having problems too soon. And potential buyers could already be predicting the problem now.

You don't need as much RAM once you dial down the graphics settings. In a 1080p game you don't really need 4K textures for example, so you can save a bunch of memory there.

Once devs start considering 16GB the norm, they also start making less efforts to fit games in lower RAM size. Sure, scaling down graphics you save a lot of memory, and initially 10GB won't be a problem, actually for cross-gen games that must run on old gen too, with its 8GB, they will never be a problem, but they could become later for current gen-only games and even worse for current and next gen cross-gen games. 12GB is 50% larger than last gen RAM, but 10GB is just 25% larger. With better CPU and GPU even just those additional 2GB can make us feel the generation leap at the beginning of this gen, and graphics scalability will keep problems away from graphics on top end models too until the end of this gen life, but later it could arrive the moment when having to run in the base model's 10GB will force to underuse the CPU, as CPU usage scales down much less downscaling graphics, particularly levels size and its logic, not graphic detail, so game world management related to it, and gameplay don't scale down at all, neither do physics, except particle systems, that are managed by the GPU, anyway, as the CPU isn't parallel enough to do it efficiently and fast.
Anyhow, large game worlds with lots of details not limited to graphics, but also regarding items interactivity, will eventually become the worst enemy of systems with smaller main RAM, and most probably only exclusives will manage to keep the problem away for the whole gen.

@DonFerrari This is also at least a partial answer to your point, I totally agree that scalability will keep graphics out of troubles, the problem will be the RAM needed by the CPU for all the things that can't be scaled down.

Last edited by Alby_da_Wolf - on 31 July 2021

Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


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Alby_da_Wolf said:
curl-6 said:

You don't need as much RAM once you dial down the graphics settings. In a 1080p game you don't really need 4K textures for example, so you can save a bunch of memory there.

Once devs start considering 16GB the norm, they also start making less efforts to fit games in lower RAM size. Sure, scaling down graphics you save a lot of memory, and initially 10GB won't be a problem, actually for cross-gen games that must run on old gen too, with its 8GB, they will never be a problem, but they could become later for current gen-only games and even worse for current and next gen cross-gen games. 12GB is 50% larger than last gen RAM, but 10GB is just 25% larger. With better CPU and GPU even just those additional 2GB can make us feel the generation leap at the beginning of this gen, and graphics scalability will keep problems away from graphics on top end models too until the end of this gen life, but later it could arrive the moment when having to run in the base model's 10GB will force to underuse the CPU, as CPU usage scales down much less downscaling graphics, particularly levels size and its logic, not graphic detail, so game world management related to it, and gameplay don't scale down at all, neither do physics, except particle systems, that are managed by the GPU, anyway, as the CPU isn't parallel enough to do it efficiently and fast.
Anyhow, large game worlds with lots of details not limited to graphics, but also regarding items interactivity, will eventually become the worst enemy of systems with smaller main RAM, and most probably only exclusives will manage to keep the problem away for the whole gen.

This isn't the first gen where consoles had different amounts of RAM, or just significantly different specs in general.

In the 6th gen Xbox had 64MB while Gamecube had 40MB and PS2 just 32MB. 

In the second half of the 8th gen games had to scale all the way from Xbox One X and PS4 Pro down to the base Xbox One.



Bet with Liquidlaser: I say PS5 and Xbox Series will sell more than 56 million combined by the end of 2023. (And over 130 million lifetime)

Don't forget my boy Dreamcast with 16 MB in the 6th Gen. Yeah, extremely broad landscape for specs back then.



And that's the only thing I need is *this*. I don't need this or this. Just this PS4... And this gaming PC. - The PS4 and the Gaming PC and that's all I need... And this Xbox 360. - The PS4, the Gaming PC, and the Xbox 360, and that's all I need... And these PS3's. - The PS4, and these PS3's, and the Gaming PC, and the Xbox 360... And this Nintendo DS. - The PS4, this Xbox 360, and the Gaming PC, and the PS3's, and that's all *I* need. And that's *all* I need too. I don't need one other thing, not one... I need this. - The Gaming PC and PS4, and Xbox 360, and thePS3's . Well what are you looking at? What do you think I'm some kind of a jerk or something! - And this. That's all I need.

Obligatory dick measuring Gaming Laptop Specs: Sager NP8270-GTX: 17.3" FULL HD (1920X1080) LED Matte LC, nVIDIA GeForce GTX 780M, Intel Core i7-4700MQ, 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3, 750GB SATA II 3GB/s 7,200 RPM Hard Drive

Alby_da_Wolf said:
curl-6 said:

You don't need as much RAM once you dial down the graphics settings. In a 1080p game you don't really need 4K textures for example, so you can save a bunch of memory there.

Once devs start considering 16GB the norm, they also start making less efforts to fit games in lower RAM size. Sure, scaling down graphics you save a lot of memory, and initially 10GB won't be a problem, actually for cross-gen games that must run on old gen too, with its 8GB, they will never be a problem, but they could become later for current gen-only games and even worse for current and next gen cross-gen games. 12GB is 50% larger than last gen RAM, but 10GB is just 25% larger. With better CPU and GPU even just those additional 2GB can make us feel the generation leap at the beginning of this gen, and graphics scalability will keep problems away from graphics on top end models too until the end of this gen life, but later it could arrive the moment when having to run in the base model's 10GB will force to underuse the CPU, as CPU usage scales down much less downscaling graphics, particularly levels size and its logic, not graphic detail, so game world management related to it, and gameplay don't scale down at all, neither do physics, except particle systems, that are managed by the GPU, anyway, as the CPU isn't parallel enough to do it efficiently and fast.
Anyhow, large game worlds with lots of details not limited to graphics, but also regarding items interactivity, will eventually become the worst enemy of systems with smaller main RAM, and most probably only exclusives will manage to keep the problem away for the whole gen.

@DonFerrari This is also at least a partial answer to your point, I totally agree that scalability will keep graphics out of troubles, the problem will be the RAM needed by the CPU for all the things that can't be scaled down.

Just to add one point, the system on Series takes less RAM than on X1 from what I saw so the available ram is more than 25% increase. But yes it is possible that the 10GB will impact every system by the end of the generation and hold out what is possible to do. If we save enough RAM on the graphics theoretically the CPU wouldn't be the biggest problem, at least that is what is expected on the drop on resolution and texture... But well if instead of near 4K for Series X we have a 1080p then it will be very hard to cut enough to Series S so that it doesn't impact everything else.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

curl-6 said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:

Once devs start considering 16GB the norm, they also start making less efforts to fit games in lower RAM size. Sure, scaling down graphics you save a lot of memory, and initially 10GB won't be a problem, actually for cross-gen games that must run on old gen too, with its 8GB, they will never be a problem, but they could become later for current gen-only games and even worse for current and next gen cross-gen games. 12GB is 50% larger than last gen RAM, but 10GB is just 25% larger. With better CPU and GPU even just those additional 2GB can make us feel the generation leap at the beginning of this gen, and graphics scalability will keep problems away from graphics on top end models too until the end of this gen life, but later it could arrive the moment when having to run in the base model's 10GB will force to underuse the CPU, as CPU usage scales down much less downscaling graphics, particularly levels size and its logic, not graphic detail, so game world management related to it, and gameplay don't scale down at all, neither do physics, except particle systems, that are managed by the GPU, anyway, as the CPU isn't parallel enough to do it efficiently and fast.
Anyhow, large game worlds with lots of details not limited to graphics, but also regarding items interactivity, will eventually become the worst enemy of systems with smaller main RAM, and most probably only exclusives will manage to keep the problem away for the whole gen.

This isn't the first gen where consoles had different amounts of RAM, or just significantly different specs in general.

In the 6th gen Xbox had 64MB while Gamecube had 40MB and PS2 just 32MB. 

In the second half of the 8th gen games had to scale all the way from Xbox One X and PS4 Pro down to the base Xbox One.

What you say is true, but this gen there is one thing that changed: until 8th gen even base models had a huge RAM size increase compared to previous gen.
But this gen full specced models offer a big, not huge increase, and XS base model offers an increase quite small, smaller than the typical mid-life RAM upgrade anyone would do to their PC. And PC-console multiplats are more than in the past, and since PC gaming dropped DOS, with PC development comes the developers attitude to put less work than in the past on RAM usage optimisation.



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


Around the Network
Alby_da_Wolf said:
curl-6 said:

This isn't the first gen where consoles had different amounts of RAM, or just significantly different specs in general.

In the 6th gen Xbox had 64MB while Gamecube had 40MB and PS2 just 32MB. 

In the second half of the 8th gen games had to scale all the way from Xbox One X and PS4 Pro down to the base Xbox One.

What you say is true, but this gen there is one thing that changed: until 8th gen even base models had a huge RAM size increase compared to previous gen.
But this gen full specced models offer a big, not huge increase, and XS base model offers an increase quite small, smaller than the typical mid-life RAM upgrade anyone would do to their PC. And PC-console multiplats are more than in the past, and since PC gaming dropped DOS, with PC development comes the developers attitude to put less work than in the past on RAM usage optimisation.

The amount of RAM is less crucial on 9th gen consoles due to the SSDs being able to accommodate a lot of the stuff that used to be done in RAM on older hardware, and since XSS has the same SSD as the X, it still shouldn't really hold back the X or PS5, especially when things like textures and resolution can be easily lowered to save memory.



Bet with Liquidlaser: I say PS5 and Xbox Series will sell more than 56 million combined by the end of 2023. (And over 130 million lifetime)

curl-6 said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:

What you say is true, but this gen there is one thing that changed: until 8th gen even base models had a huge RAM size increase compared to previous gen.
But this gen full specced models offer a big, not huge increase, and XS base model offers an increase quite small, smaller than the typical mid-life RAM upgrade anyone would do to their PC. And PC-console multiplats are more than in the past, and since PC gaming dropped DOS, with PC development comes the developers attitude to put less work than in the past on RAM usage optimisation.

The amount of RAM is less crucial on 9th gen consoles due to the SSDs being able to accommodate a lot of the stuff that used to be done in RAM on older hardware, and since XSS has the same SSD as the X, it still shouldn't really hold back the X or PS5, especially when things like textures and resolution can be easily lowered to save memory.

Don't believe SSD is a replacement for RAM, SSD is great because it's a great speed and latency improvement compared to HDD. Yes, precisely thanks to these features an advantage offered by SSD is being able to load in RAM a lot of stuff "last minute" as smoothly or even more than loading larger portions in advance from HDD, so keeping a lot more RAM available on average, but when you need the speed and latency of RAM, SSD won't be a replacement.
Also, in single player games with free roaming in large worlds managed in real time also outside of draw distance, the game engine will need to keep loaded all the non graphic world infos needed for the task (well, for this particular issue we're talking about a very small minority of very ambitious titles, but even if they are in small number, surely both Sony and MS will want them on their latest consoles).
I took into accont graphics scalability, but I'm also willing to take into account that even the entry level GPU is more powerful, and some years newer, so it offers more and more advanced functions, even limiting it to 1080p it will still require more RAM than last gen, I fear 10GB is just a couple of GB too stingy, 12GB would have made devs life easier. BTW 12GB was precisely one of the most agreed upon guesses about entry level  RAM size before PS5 and XS were fully revealed.
Anyway, I don't predict doom and gloom, I just predict that eventually the compromises required by entry level XS will force devs to not fully use XSX, and PS too in multiplats, CPU power and their larger RAM will mostly be used only for better graphics.
Anyhow, it could also happen that XSS limits become a good excuse for devs to pause the race to ever more demanding games and prevent dev costs from skyrocketing.



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


Alby_da_Wolf said:
curl-6 said:

The amount of RAM is less crucial on 9th gen consoles due to the SSDs being able to accommodate a lot of the stuff that used to be done in RAM on older hardware, and since XSS has the same SSD as the X, it still shouldn't really hold back the X or PS5, especially when things like textures and resolution can be easily lowered to save memory.

Don't believe SSD is a replacement for RAM, SSD is great because it's a great speed and latency improvement compared to HDD. Yes, precisely thanks to these features an advantage offered by SSD is being able to load in RAM a lot of stuff "last minute" as smoothly or even more than loading larger portions in advance from HDD, so keeping a lot more RAM available on average, but when you need the speed and latency of RAM, SSD won't be a replacement.
Also, in single player games with free roaming in large worlds managed in real time also outside of draw distance, the game engine will need to keep loaded all the non graphic world infos needed for the task (well, for this particular issue we're talking about a very small minority of very ambitious titles, but even if they are in small number, surely both Sony and MS will want them on their latest consoles).
I took into accont graphics scalability, but I'm also willing to take into account that even the entry level GPU is more powerful, and some years newer, so it offers more and more advanced functions, even limiting it to 1080p it will still require more RAM than last gen, I fear 10GB is just a couple of GB too stingy, 12GB would have made devs life easier. BTW 12GB was precisely one of the most agreed upon guesses about entry level  RAM size before PS5 and XS were fully revealed.
Anyway, I don't predict doom and gloom, I just predict that eventually the compromises required by entry level XS will force devs to not fully use XSX, and PS too in multiplats, CPU power and their larger RAM will mostly be used only for better graphics.
Anyhow, it could also happen that XSS limits become a good excuse for devs to pause the race to ever more demanding games and prevent dev costs from skyrocketing.

From Sony reveal of PS5 their explanations of the SSD and how fast it was allowing a lot of space that previously needed to be on the RAM because it needed to be recalled fast now wasn`t an issue. So we will really need to wait to be sure how much the 10Gb will affect the games. But yes in general terms I do agree that to some point Series S will hold back multiplats, even more because most third parties don`t put much on optmizing and love to cut costs and corners.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Alby_da_Wolf said:
curl-6 said:

The amount of RAM is less crucial on 9th gen consoles due to the SSDs being able to accommodate a lot of the stuff that used to be done in RAM on older hardware, and since XSS has the same SSD as the X, it still shouldn't really hold back the X or PS5, especially when things like textures and resolution can be easily lowered to save memory.

Don't believe SSD is a replacement for RAM, SSD is great because it's a great speed and latency improvement compared to HDD. Yes, precisely thanks to these features an advantage offered by SSD is being able to load in RAM a lot of stuff "last minute" as smoothly or even more than loading larger portions in advance from HDD, so keeping a lot more RAM available on average, but when you need the speed and latency of RAM, SSD won't be a replacement.
Also, in single player games with free roaming in large worlds managed in real time also outside of draw distance, the game engine will need to keep loaded all the non graphic world infos needed for the task (well, for this particular issue we're talking about a very small minority of very ambitious titles, but even if they are in small number, surely both Sony and MS will want them on their latest consoles).
I took into accont graphics scalability, but I'm also willing to take into account that even the entry level GPU is more powerful, and some years newer, so it offers more and more advanced functions, even limiting it to 1080p it will still require more RAM than last gen, I fear 10GB is just a couple of GB too stingy, 12GB would have made devs life easier. BTW 12GB was precisely one of the most agreed upon guesses about entry level  RAM size before PS5 and XS were fully revealed.
Anyway, I don't predict doom and gloom, I just predict that eventually the compromises required by entry level XS will force devs to not fully use XSX, and PS too in multiplats, CPU power and their larger RAM will mostly be used only for better graphics.
Anyhow, it could also happen that XSS limits become a good excuse for devs to pause the race to ever more demanding games and prevent dev costs from skyrocketing.

SSD can't replace everything RAM is used for, but there's a reason even Series X and PS5 have only double as much RAM as the circa 2013 PS4 and Xbone yet are still a big leap over them. 

Devs have been targeting different specs with their games for decades, I really don't think 10GB will be a big problem. The S versions of games may suffer a bit but if PS4 games can run on Switch, PS5 games can run on the Series S.



Bet with Liquidlaser: I say PS5 and Xbox Series will sell more than 56 million combined by the end of 2023. (And over 130 million lifetime)

curl-6 said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:

Don't believe SSD is a replacement for RAM, SSD is great because it's a great speed and latency improvement compared to HDD. Yes, precisely thanks to these features an advantage offered by SSD is being able to load in RAM a lot of stuff "last minute" as smoothly or even more than loading larger portions in advance from HDD, so keeping a lot more RAM available on average, but when you need the speed and latency of RAM, SSD won't be a replacement.
Also, in single player games with free roaming in large worlds managed in real time also outside of draw distance, the game engine will need to keep loaded all the non graphic world infos needed for the task (well, for this particular issue we're talking about a very small minority of very ambitious titles, but even if they are in small number, surely both Sony and MS will want them on their latest consoles).
I took into accont graphics scalability, but I'm also willing to take into account that even the entry level GPU is more powerful, and some years newer, so it offers more and more advanced functions, even limiting it to 1080p it will still require more RAM than last gen, I fear 10GB is just a couple of GB too stingy, 12GB would have made devs life easier. BTW 12GB was precisely one of the most agreed upon guesses about entry level  RAM size before PS5 and XS were fully revealed.
Anyway, I don't predict doom and gloom, I just predict that eventually the compromises required by entry level XS will force devs to not fully use XSX, and PS too in multiplats, CPU power and their larger RAM will mostly be used only for better graphics.
Anyhow, it could also happen that XSS limits become a good excuse for devs to pause the race to ever more demanding games and prevent dev costs from skyrocketing.

SSD can't replace everything RAM is used for, but there's a reason even Series X and PS5 have only double as much RAM as the circa 2013 PS4 and Xbone yet are still a big leap over them. 

Devs have been targeting different specs with their games for decades, I really don't think 10GB will be a big problem. The S versions of games may suffer a bit but if PS4 games can run on Switch, PS5 games can run on the Series S.

About your bet, it is likely that PS5 alone will be very near that 56M by the end of 2023.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."