By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - $5,000 anti-racist dinner parties

Flilix said:
sundin13 said:

Is it really so far-fetched that White Supremacy would be at the root of Black-on-Asian violence?

Let's break things down real quick. When we hear "white supremacy" we largely think of individuals who hold the belief that whites are inherently better and that they should have the power in society, but that isn't what we are talking about here. In this context, White Supremacy refers to the system of values in our society which places traits commonly associated with whiteness above traits associated with non-white groups. This can be something as simply as valuing light skin tones over darker skin tones, or something more cultural such as valuing a nuclear family set-up over other types of family structures. It also speaks to the series of beliefs and ideas which have largely been created and perpetuated by white individuals in power (more on this below).

(...)

Because these values and beliefs emerge from power, it is often a pretty safe assumption that these broad, culture-wide sentiments can be attributed to White supremacy to at least some degree.

Now, what about Anti-Asian racism in the era of covid? I feel like you would pose little objection to the belief that this largely emerged from whites in power, be they White Republicans in politics, or white talking heads on Fox News, but I'll provide a source anyways: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01419870.2020.1839114

So, when a black person commits anti-Asian violence because of the beliefs they hold about the victim's role in the coronavirus, what stands at the root of this? Largely, racist sentiments perpetuated by whites in power and internalized by other communities. And the history of Black-Asian tensions have been going on for much longer than Covid. It is largely through white racism that a sense of competition between minority groups emerged (similar to the tension with Mexican immigrants described above). This article breaks down some of the history of Black-Asian tensions pretty well, but you can also look into the "model minority myth" if you want to do further reading: https://www.vox.com/22321234/black-asian-american-tensions-solidarity-history

Now, does this mean that you are to blame, or that any of this is a criticism of you personally? Of course not. This type of defensive attitude is something I see all too often and it is altogether misplaced. I work in the sciences. One of the most important things that we learn is about cognitive biases. It doesn't make me evil or bad or stupid for these biases to exist within my head. It is simply a part of human nature. However, it is through learning and understanding in which I am able to ensure that I don't act upon these biases. The same thing applies for racial biases. It doesn't make you a bad person to have biases in your head. Everyone does. That is the power of white supremacy. However, learning and understanding can help immensely in not just ensuring you aren't perpetuating White supremacy, but in dismantling it. 

I don't really get the connection you're making between everything you're saying and your omnipresent 'white supremacy'.

You're making a perfect link between racial supremacy and xenophobia, which I find very questionable. If a virus originates in one country and then causes other countries to go through a disastrous year, isn't it logical then that quite a few people will develop a hatred against that one country, even if they do not believe in racial superiority at all? For instance, there was a lot of anti-German sentiment in Europe after World War II, but no one believed that they were racially superior to the Germans.

Couldn't the anti-Asian sentiment of the 'whites in power' simply be mostly a result of this logical xenophobia, rather than a major cause? Just like the anti-Asian sentiment of a lot of black Americans is. Or just like the anti-Asian sentiment of a lot of African people is, despite not watching Fox News or being directly part of 'a system of white supremacy'.

The fact that anti-Asian sentiments are more common among white people can simply be explained by the fact that black people are generally more used to discrimination, and thus tend to be more considerate when judging people by their ethnicity.

Edit: just to be clear - when I say that xenophobia is 'logical', I do of course not mean that it's also reasonable or justified.

I often see a lot of people making distinctions between "xenophobia" and "racism". I've never quite understood why it matters. Both are means of discrimination against groups who have been othered. The only difference is whether you want to other people based on the somewhat arbitrary social boundaries of race, or the somewhat arbitrary social boundaries of borders. Further, I feel I've already made clear that when speaking about "white supremacy", I am not talking about people outwardly believing that whites are better than other races. See the first paragraph in the post you quoted. It is about societal values, which we may often see as entirely distinct from "racism" (or xenophobia), yet are not.

I also find the comparison between a virus originating country and the Nazis somewhat bizarre. I will simply say that, no, it is not particularly logical to hate Asians because a virus originated in China, but further I feel it is indisputable that some degree of anti-Asian sentiment has come from powerful white people. This was demonstrated through the source that I posted, which indicates where a large amount of this anti-Asian sentiment is coming from. Would there be some anti-Asian sentiment without white supremacy? Possibly to some degree, but it would almost certainly be a lesser degree (and in the absence of white supremacy, we would also subtract some of the other causes of historical tension which I previously discussed). 

Additionally, I don't believe the assertion that African Americans are not a part of the system of white supremacy is accurate. Of course they are part of the system. You can't live in this country without being part of the system (except for maybe the Amish? I don't fully understand how that works). As previously stated, a black person isn't immune from the idea that a Mexican immigrant is stealing their job just because they are black, or don't watch Fox news. 



Around the Network
sundin13 said:
KLAMarine said:

"Is it really so far-fetched that White Supremacy would be at the root of Black-on-Asian violence?"

>I'd be more prepared to blame black supremacy for black-on-Asian violence.

I like to hold people accountable for their own actions as well as beliefs.

Did you happen to read my post? 

If so, feel free to actually make an argument. If not, why are you responding to me?

Yes, I read your post hence I'm responding.

The idea that white supremacy lies at the root of black on Asian violence ignores the fact that white supremacy has also made acts of violence highly illegal and regularly punishes it in every day life.

All people have ultimate say on what they do with their fists so let's not try to shift culpability by pointing to some nebulous concept. It's okay to hold people, black or white, accountable for their own actions.



KLAMarine said:
sundin13 said:

Did you happen to read my post? 

If so, feel free to actually make an argument. If not, why are you responding to me?

Yes, I read your post hence I'm responding.

The idea that white supremacy lies at the root of black on Asian violence ignores the fact that white supremacy has also made acts of violence highly illegal and regularly punishes it in every day life.

All people have ultimate say on what they do with their fists so let's not try to shift culpability by pointing to some nebulous concept. It's okay to hold people, black or white, accountable for their own actions.

Yes, hold individuals accountable. 

That however is not an argument that systems don't exist.



sundin13 said:

Is it really so far-fetched that White Supremacy would be at the root of Black-on-Asian violence? 

Let's break things down real quick. When we hear "white supremacy" we largely think of individuals who hold the belief that whites are inherently better and that they should have the power in society, but that isn't what we are talking about here. In this context, White Supremacy refers to the system of values in our society which places traits commonly associated with whiteness above traits associated with non-white groups. This can be something as simply as valuing light skin tones over darker skin tones, or something more cultural such as valuing a nuclear family set-up over other types of family structures. It also speaks to the series of beliefs and ideas which have largely been created and perpetuated by white individuals in power (more on this below).

This series of beliefs and values is passed down throughout the culture, regardless of race. Let's look at an example real quick:

It is largely through the power of white supremacy that the anti-Mexican sentiment that "the immigrants are taking our jobs" arose. Is it really that far-fetched to assume that a black individual who is unemployed, or under-employed may internalize this idea and develope animosity towards the Mexican population? And if they did, what would be the root cause? I would argue that the root cause is two fold: The structures that caused the individual to be unemployed or underemployed (often White Supremacy) and the structures which created this messaging (often White Supremacy). 

Because these values and beliefs emerge from power, it is often a pretty safe assumption that these broad, culture-wide sentiments can be attributed to White supremacy to at least some degree.

Now, what about Anti-Asian racism in the era of covid? I feel like you would pose little objection to the belief that this largely emerged from whites in power, be they White Republicans in politics, or white talking heads on Fox News, but I'll provide a source anyways: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01419870.2020.1839114

So, when a black person commits anti-Asian violence because of the beliefs they hold about the victim's role in the coronavirus, what stands at the root of this? Largely, racist sentiments perpetuated by whites in power and internalized by other communities. And the history of Black-Asian tensions have been going on for much longer than Covid. It is largely through white racism that a sense of competition between minority groups emerged (similar to the tension with Mexican immigrants described above). This article breaks down some of the history of Black-Asian tensions pretty well, but you can also look into the "model minority myth" if you want to do further reading: https://www.vox.com/22321234/black-asian-american-tensions-solidarity-history

Now, does this mean that you are to blame, or that any of this is a criticism of you personally? Of course not. This type of defensive attitude is something I see all too often and it is altogether misplaced. I work in the sciences. One of the most important things that we learn is about cognitive biases. It doesn't make me evil or bad or stupid for these biases to exist within my head. It is simply a part of human nature. However, it is through learning and understanding in which I am able to ensure that I don't act upon these biases. The same thing applies for racial biases. It doesn't make you a bad person to have biases in your head. Everyone does. That is the power of white supremacy. However, learning and understanding can help immensely in not just ensuring you aren't perpetuating White supremacy, but in dismantling it. 

As for your final point, I'll just say quickly that it should be telling that seemingly your best sources to back up your claims that the "Defund the Police" movement is causally linked to increases in violent crime is how some people feel and Tucker Carlson... I've said before that some people have demonstrated that they do not value truth and as such they are not worth listening to. Tucker is at the top of that list. If you wish to prove this point, you'll have to produce a better source than that. And this post is getting long, but I'll provide a quick source on why I don't believe this claim is particularly well supported: Crime has risen even in cities that didn't decrease funding for police. In Democratic-led cities, the homicide rate increased 36.2%, while in Republican-led cities, the homicide rate increased 35.6%. Further, while this has been a particularly loud issue, few cities have actually decreased their police budgets, and many of the ones that have didn't go into effect immediately. https://www.salon.com/2021/02/01/did-defund-the-police-lead-to-an-increase-in-murder-almost-certainly-not/

I don't want to say it, but it certainly seems like the power of white supremacy may be leading people to make improper assumptions about the effect of decreasing police funding, in order to keep funding up for one of the most powerful perpetuators of systemic racism...

Concerning your case about white supremacy, I am basically familiar with what the concept refers to in critical race theory, but find many of the resultant conclusions adherents draw obscenely simplistic and disingenuous. For example, you argue that a black person who blames immigrants for unemployment or under-employment does so because of white people in positions of power were the original nativists. This begs the question of how it's possible that other countries wherein white people are a minority -- sometimes only a fringe minority without any political power to speak of, like in the case of say Japan, for example -- one also often finds exceedingly restrictive immigration policies and bigoted, hostile attitudes toward migrant workers? You see what I'm saying? Once you get outside of a U.S.-centric worldview and mindset, the entire argument you're making here about "whiteness" being responsible for nativist attitudes falls apart.

Something similar can be said of the racialized association people often make between ethnically Chinese people and Covid-19. Donald Trump personally and specifically bears more responsibility for the popularization of that narrative than anyone else on Earth and that can be statistically demonstrated. However, Donald Trump's opinions are not exactly reflective of those of most white people in positions of power even in this country, are they? Is the matter then, in fact, systemic, or more like the disproportionate influence of a particular narcissistic, xenophobic asshole who was the worst president we've had in my lifetime and only served one term because of it? What I'm proposing here is that perhaps indeed Asian hate is exactly that: Asian hate and not "whiteness". It might be part of Donald Trump's idea of whiteness, but I really doubt that the black person who attacks an Asian-American over Covid-19 does so because they view themself as inferior to white people.

Anyway, fair enough on the city-by-city breakdown of the crime rates. But I still feel that Carlson has a valid point when he highlights the fact that crime rates have, by contrast, fallen most everywhere else in the world since the onset of Covid-19 and that as much frankly makes sense when you consider the nature of stay-at-home orders and social distancing policies. We seem to be the exception to this rule here. I've seen the argument made that the explanation lies in our recent record-breaking surge in gun sales. That too is a fair enough point, but guns don't just sell themselves. People buy them for reasons. Namely and most often because they feel unsafe. The question then becomes one of why so many Americans specifically suddenly feel that much less safe than a year ago. There's little question that, frankly, the main reason that this sudden surge began right around late May and early June of last year and has persisted since, running parallel to jumps in violent crime in this country, obviously has to do with 1) the murder of George Floyd and increased fear of police violence going along with that, 2) corresponding social de-legitimization of the police by Black Lives Matter resulting in less active police forces broadly, cutbacks in funding for police departments on a smaller scale, lack of prosecution for many crimes in various cities, etc., and 3) violence in the streets itself; it becomes a self-perpetuating problem that continually creates more fear in more people, resulting in turn in increased gun purchases and more concurrent social violence. That would be my personal assessment.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 31 May 2021

sundin13 said:
Flilix said:

I don't really get the connection you're making between everything you're saying and your omnipresent 'white supremacy'.

You're making a perfect link between racial supremacy and xenophobia, which I find very questionable. If a virus originates in one country and then causes other countries to go through a disastrous year, isn't it logical then that quite a few people will develop a hatred against that one country, even if they do not believe in racial superiority at all? For instance, there was a lot of anti-German sentiment in Europe after World War II, but no one believed that they were racially superior to the Germans.

Couldn't the anti-Asian sentiment of the 'whites in power' simply be mostly a result of this logical xenophobia, rather than a major cause? Just like the anti-Asian sentiment of a lot of black Americans is. Or just like the anti-Asian sentiment of a lot of African people is, despite not watching Fox News or being directly part of 'a system of white supremacy'.

The fact that anti-Asian sentiments are more common among white people can simply be explained by the fact that black people are generally more used to discrimination, and thus tend to be more considerate when judging people by their ethnicity.

Edit: just to be clear - when I say that xenophobia is 'logical', I do of course not mean that it's also reasonable or justified.

I often see a lot of people making distinctions between "xenophobia" and "racism". I've never quite understood why it matters. Both are means of discrimination against groups who have been othered. The only difference is whether you want to other people based on the somewhat arbitrary social boundaries of race, or the somewhat arbitrary social boundaries of borders. Further, I feel I've already made clear that when speaking about "white supremacy", I am not talking about people outwardly believing that whites are better than other races. See the first paragraph in the post you quoted. It is about societal values, which we may often see as entirely distinct from "racism" (or xenophobia), yet are not.

I also find the comparison between a virus originating country and the Nazis somewhat bizarre. I will simply say that, no, it is not particularly logical to hate Asians because a virus originated in China, but further I feel it is indisputable that some degree of anti-Asian sentiment has come from powerful white people. This was demonstrated through the source that I posted, which indicates where a large amount of this anti-Asian sentiment is coming from. Would there be some anti-Asian sentiment without white supremacy? Possibly to some degree, but it would almost certainly be a lesser degree (and in the absence of white supremacy, we would also subtract some of the other causes of historical tension which I previously discussed). 

Additionally, I don't believe the assertion that African Americans are not a part of the system of white supremacy is accurate. Of course they are part of the system. You can't live in this country without being part of the system (except for maybe the Amish? I don't fully understand how that works). As previously stated, a black person isn't immune from the idea that a Mexican immigrant is stealing their job just because they are black, or don't watch Fox news. 

It's weird to me that one would refer to xenophobia as 'white supremacy'. The distinction is relevant because they're rooted in distinct thinking systems, they have different causes, ideas and possible 'cures'. Xenophobia might be influenced by racial supremacy, but that doesn't mean that there's an inherent or even a strong link. Here in Europe there are for example a lot of moderate right-leaning people who absolutely love immigrants who are well integrated.

The source you posted could prove that the anti-Asian sentiment is more common among powerful white Americans, but not that it's caused by them. Like I said, it's not surprising that it's common among them, but that doesn't mean that a) it's because of their white supremacy, b) they are the reason why others become more anti-Asian.

Putting things like 'white supremacy' or 'systemic racism' as dogmatic principles does not seem very useful to me.

Last paragraph: I was talking about African Africans, not black Americans.



Around the Network
sundin13 said:
KLAMarine said:

Yes, I read your post hence I'm responding.

The idea that white supremacy lies at the root of black on Asian violence ignores the fact that white supremacy has also made acts of violence highly illegal and regularly punishes it in every day life.

All people have ultimate say on what they do with their fists so let's not try to shift culpability by pointing to some nebulous concept. It's okay to hold people, black or white, accountable for their own actions.

Yes, hold individuals accountable. 

That however is not an argument that systems don't exist.

Systems exist but their impact also ultimately comes down to the actions of individuals.



sundin13 said:
Jaicee said:

Concerning color-blindness...I mean I don't need a college degree to figure out that white racism is a real, ongoing problem in our society. Like I said, I try to treat people the same. It's not difficult to see that not everyone is being treated the same by society writ large. It's easy to notice a contrast between your own behavior and attitudes and shit you see on TV sometimes and attitudes you find in some of your neighbors. Like no, George Floyd did not die of a heart attack. Duh! You have to want to reach conclusions like that! I'm ain't saying that white racism isn't a real problem in today's America these days because it is. It obviously is. That doesn't take a lot of research to figure out. It just takes having any degree of empathy at all for people who don't look exactly like you.

Concerning your assessment that I disagree with you on the merits of critical race theory only because I "don't fully understand" what its saying, like I'm just too ignorant to agree with you or something, nah I don't think so. The essence isn't difficult to understand given five minutes of education therein. Critical theory is a Western academic variety of Marxism (literally, not hyperbolically) and critical race theory is a racialized version thereof wherein the focus is shifted away from class conflict to race conflict instead. It's really not that difficult to grasp the heart and soul of it. I'm not a Marxist. I find CRT just as impulsively repressive and simplistic in its sweeping conclusions about society as other varieties of Marxism. For example, when a black person attacks an Asian-American, guess who's fault that is according to CRT's more passionate subscribers? You guessed it: its somehow "white supremacy". Like it's somehow my fault. Why? Because in this brilliant theory of the case, all white people are racist bigots  because they're white (you read the OP) and no one else can be. It's really not that difficult to understand said message or to rationally find it disagreeable. Most people, if anything, might support critical race theory based on ignorance of its contents, assuming it's just benign education on what race discrimination looks like in the real world, only to discover a much larger message therein they object to later, on further learning. Once they learn a thing or two about it though, they more often than not object unless they're too young and naive to know better, which is why CRT "education" has emerged as a winning issue for the Republicans who favor banning it in swing districts here in my state already.

Likewise, one has to get up pretty early in the morning to see no connection between CRT and demands like that for de-funding local police departments. And like the survey I linked to before shows, most people do, in fact, lay at least part of the blame for the sustained uptick in violent crime we've seen over the last year in particular on the 'anti-racist' movement itself. Now most people can just be wrong, true and fair enough, but I really don't think they are. You petition me for a source on this. I've got plenty of evidence, but the most extensive, factual, well-substantiated, biting, and frankly convincing argument that liberal softness on crime -- cutting funding for local police forces and not prosecuting crimes -- is the root cause of this very new problem I've found is this one by Tucker Carlson. Whatever we think of Mr. Carlson more broadly (I certainly have my opinions), I find that nonetheless sometimes conservatives like him have a valid point or two that's tough to ignore even though they're conservatives and this is one of those cases. Policy proposals like de-funding police departments get people killed, and I don't mean mostly white people.

Is it really so far-fetched that White Supremacy would be at the root of Black-on-Asian violence? 

Let's break things down real quick. When we hear "white supremacy" we largely think of individuals who hold the belief that whites are inherently better and that they should have the power in society, but that isn't what we are talking about here. In this context, White Supremacy refers to the system of values in our society which places traits commonly associated with whiteness above traits associated with non-white groups. This can be something as simply as valuing light skin tones over darker skin tones, or something more cultural such as valuing a nuclear family set-up over other types of family structures. It also speaks to the series of beliefs and ideas which have largely been created and perpetuated by white individuals in power (more on this below).

This series of beliefs and values is passed down throughout the culture, regardless of race. Let's look at an example real quick:

It is largely through the power of white supremacy that the anti-Mexican sentiment that "the immigrants are taking our jobs" arose. Is it really that far-fetched to assume that a black individual who is unemployed, or under-employed may internalize this idea and develope animosity towards the Mexican population? And if they did, what would be the root cause? I would argue that the root cause is two fold: The structures that caused the individual to be unemployed or underemployed (often White Supremacy) and the structures which created this messaging (often White Supremacy). 

Because these values and beliefs emerge from power, it is often a pretty safe assumption that these broad, culture-wide sentiments can be attributed to White supremacy to at least some degree.

Now, what about Anti-Asian racism in the era of covid? I feel like you would pose little objection to the belief that this largely emerged from whites in power, be they White Republicans in politics, or white talking heads on Fox News, but I'll provide a source anyways: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01419870.2020.1839114

So, when a black person commits anti-Asian violence because of the beliefs they hold about the victim's role in the coronavirus, what stands at the root of this? Largely, racist sentiments perpetuated by whites in power and internalized by other communities. And the history of Black-Asian tensions have been going on for much longer than Covid. It is largely through white racism that a sense of competition between minority groups emerged (similar to the tension with Mexican immigrants described above). This article breaks down some of the history of Black-Asian tensions pretty well, but you can also look into the "model minority myth" if you want to do further reading: https://www.vox.com/22321234/black-asian-american-tensions-solidarity-history

Now, does this mean that you are to blame, or that any of this is a criticism of you personally? Of course not. This type of defensive attitude is something I see all too often and it is altogether misplaced. I work in the sciences. One of the most important things that we learn is about cognitive biases. It doesn't make me evil or bad or stupid for these biases to exist within my head. It is simply a part of human nature. However, it is through learning and understanding in which I am able to ensure that I don't act upon these biases. The same thing applies for racial biases. It doesn't make you a bad person to have biases in your head. Everyone does. That is the power of white supremacy. However, learning and understanding can help immensely in not just ensuring you aren't perpetuating White supremacy, but in dismantling it. 

As for your final point, I'll just say quickly that it should be telling that seemingly your best sources to back up your claims that the "Defund the Police" movement is causally linked to increases in violent crime is how some people feel and Tucker Carlson... I've said before that some people have demonstrated that they do not value truth and as such they are not worth listening to. Tucker is at the top of that list. If you wish to prove this point, you'll have to produce a better source than that. And this post is getting long, but I'll provide a quick source on why I don't believe this claim is particularly well supported: Crime has risen even in cities that didn't decrease funding for police. In Democratic-led cities, the homicide rate increased 36.2%, while in Republican-led cities, the homicide rate increased 35.6%. Further, while this has been a particularly loud issue, few cities have actually decreased their police budgets, and many of the ones that have didn't go into effect immediately. https://www.salon.com/2021/02/01/did-defund-the-police-lead-to-an-increase-in-murder-almost-certainly-not/

I don't want to say it, but it certainly seems like the power of white supremacy may be leading people to make improper assumptions about the effect of decreasing police funding, in order to keep funding up for one of the most powerful perpetuators of systemic racism...

Wow.. Just WOW. Dude you are so full of shit and i dont care if i get banned for this but really... Its my fault as a white guy if some black on Asian violence breaks out.. Man your a snow flack...



Jaicee said:

The Vox article you point to was genuinely interesting and I appreciate that.

But to your larger case about white supremacy, I am basically familiar with what the concept refers to in critical race theory, but find many of the resultant conclusions people draw obscenely simplistic and disingenuous. For example, you argue that a black person who blames immigrants for unemployment or under-employment does so because of white people in positions of power were the original nativists. This begs the question of how it's possible that other countries wherein white people are a minority -- sometimes only a fringe minority without any political power to speak of, like in the case of say Japan, for example -- one also often finds exceedingly restrictive immigration policies and bigoted, hostile attitudes toward migrant workers? You see what I'm saying? Once you get outside of a U.S.-centric worldview and mindset, the entire argument you're making here about "whiteness" being responsible for nativist attitudes falls apart.

Something similar can be said of the racialized association people often make between ethnically Chinese people and Covid-19. Donald Trump personally and specifically bears more responsibility for the popularization of that narrative than anyone else on Earth and that can be statistically demonstrated. However, Donald Trump's opinions are not exactly reflective of those of most white people in positions of power even in this country, are they? Is the matter then, in fact, systemic, or more like the disproportionate influence of a particular narcissistic, xenophobic asshole who was the worst president we've had in my lifetime and only served one term because of it? What I'm proposing here is that perhaps indeed Asian hate is exactly that: Asian hate and not "whiteness". It might be Donald Trump's idea of whiteness, but I really doubt that the black person who attacks an Asian-American over Covid-19 does so because they view themself as inferior to white people.

Anyway, fair enough on the city-by-city breakdown of the crime rates. But I still feel that Carlson has a valid point when he highlights the fact that crime rates have, by contrast, fallen most everywhere else in the world since the onset of Covid-19 and that as much frankly makes sense when you consider the nature of stay-at-home orders and social distancing policies. We seem to be the exception to this rule here. I've seen the argument made that the explanation lies in our recent record-breaking surge in gun sales. That too is a fair enough point, but guns don't just sell themselves. People buy them for reasons. Namely because they feel unsafe. The question then becomes one of why so many people suddenly feel that much less safe than a year ago. There's little question that, frankly, the main reason that this sudden surge began right around late May and early June of last year and has persisted since, running parallel to jumps in violent crime in this country, obviously has to do with 1) the murder of George Floyd and increased fear of police violence going along with that, 2) corresponding social de-legitimization of the police by Black Lives Matter resulting in less active police forces broadly, cutbacks in funding for police departments on a smaller scale, lack of prosecution for many crimes in various cities, etc., and 3) violence in the streets itself; it becomes a self-perpetuating problem that continually creates more fear in more people, resulting in turn in increased gun purchases and more concurrent social violence. That would be my personal assessment.

"How [is it] possible that other countries wherein white people are a minority -- sometimes only a fringe minority without any political power to speak of, like in the case of say Japan, for example -- one also often finds exceedingly restrictive immigration policies and bigoted, hostile attitudes toward migrant workers?"

Well, because they have their own systems of oppression at work. The issue is largely a majoritarian one, not a "white" one. White people aren't evil or bigoted because of their skin tone. These trends largely emerge from power. As they say, absolute power corrupts absolutely. It is simply the case that in America, white people have historically held the lions share of power, and as such, society has become tailored to them. These types of discussions seek to explain the way things work in America. Similar human forces are at play in other countries, but through the differences in the countries, the outcome varies. 

"However, Donald Trump's opinions are not exactly reflective of those of most white people in positions of power even in this country, are they?"

While Trump's opinions may not be reflective of a majority, Donald Trump is far from the only one who has been saying these things, and Donald Trump held a lot of systemic power. But does that singular power make this systemic? I would argue that through the outsized influence that Trump has, yes, it is almost inherently systemic. He still arguably leads an entire wing of our government, and his influence holds a lot of power in the news media as well. I find it difficult to not see such a thing as systemic given the fact that seemingly the majority of the Republican party either played along or stayed silent. 

"I really doubt that the black person who attacks an Asian-American over Covid-19 does so because they view themself as inferior to white people."

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. I never insisted that this was the case, and it doesn't have to be the case for anything that I'm speaking about to be true. As previously stated, white supremacy is not really about people outwardly stating that one group is better than another, it is often broken into much smaller pieces, such as the belief that a nuclear family is a superior family structure to, say, living with your parents or extended family units which may be more common in other cultures. People often don't see that there is a supremacist component to these beliefs or feelings. Similarly, memetic ideas such as "Mexicans are stealing our jobs" largely spread through the power of white supremacy. White supremacy goes a lot deeper than simply people believing one group is superior to another group and saying "well, this person didn't say that whites are better, so it must not be relevant here" is a complete and fundamental misunderstanding of what is being discussed. 

"Crime rates"

I think the decreased trust in police may be a better theory about what is the cause here than changes in funding, but I'd like to say that I put the blame for this on the cops who killed George Floyd (and others), not the people who criticized them for it. 

zero129 said:

Wow.. Just WOW. Dude you are so full of shit and i dont care if i get banned for this but really... Its my fault as a white guy if some black on Asian violence breaks out.. Man your a snow flack...

That's not what I said, but you do you man. 

KLAMarine said:
sundin13 said:

Yes, hold individuals accountable. 

That however is not an argument that systems don't exist.

Systems exist but their impact also ultimately comes down to the actions of individuals.

...Okay, so if we acknowledge that systems exist, why is it bad to want to dismantle the harmful impacts of them?

Flilix said:

It's weird to me that one would refer to xenophobia as 'white supremacy'. The distinction is relevant because they're rooted in distinct thinking systems, they have different causes, ideas and possible 'cures'. Xenophobia might be influenced by racial supremacy, but that doesn't mean that there's an inherent or even a strong link. Here in Europe there are for example a lot of moderate right-leaning people who absolutely love immigrants who are well integrated.

The source you posted could prove that the anti-Asian sentiment is more common among powerful white Americans, but not that it's caused by them. Like I said, it's not surprising that it's common among them, but that doesn't mean that a) it's because of their white supremacy, b) they are the reason why others become more anti-Asian.

Putting things like 'white supremacy' or 'systemic racism' as dogmatic principles does not seem very useful to me.

Last paragraph: I was talking about African Africans, not black Americans.

Again, I have to emphasize that this discussion is rooted in America. I make no promises that the same things will hold true in Europe or Africa (?).

Last edited by sundin13 - on 31 May 2021

sundin13 said:
Jaicee said:

The Vox article you point to was genuinely interesting and I appreciate that.

But to your larger case about white supremacy, I am basically familiar with what the concept refers to in critical race theory, but find many of the resultant conclusions people draw obscenely simplistic and disingenuous. For example, you argue that a black person who blames immigrants for unemployment or under-employment does so because of white people in positions of power were the original nativists. This begs the question of how it's possible that other countries wherein white people are a minority -- sometimes only a fringe minority without any political power to speak of, like in the case of say Japan, for example -- one also often finds exceedingly restrictive immigration policies and bigoted, hostile attitudes toward migrant workers? You see what I'm saying? Once you get outside of a U.S.-centric worldview and mindset, the entire argument you're making here about "whiteness" being responsible for nativist attitudes falls apart.

Something similar can be said of the racialized association people often make between ethnically Chinese people and Covid-19. Donald Trump personally and specifically bears more responsibility for the popularization of that narrative than anyone else on Earth and that can be statistically demonstrated. However, Donald Trump's opinions are not exactly reflective of those of most white people in positions of power even in this country, are they? Is the matter then, in fact, systemic, or more like the disproportionate influence of a particular narcissistic, xenophobic asshole who was the worst president we've had in my lifetime and only served one term because of it? What I'm proposing here is that perhaps indeed Asian hate is exactly that: Asian hate and not "whiteness". It might be Donald Trump's idea of whiteness, but I really doubt that the black person who attacks an Asian-American over Covid-19 does so because they view themself as inferior to white people.

Anyway, fair enough on the city-by-city breakdown of the crime rates. But I still feel that Carlson has a valid point when he highlights the fact that crime rates have, by contrast, fallen most everywhere else in the world since the onset of Covid-19 and that as much frankly makes sense when you consider the nature of stay-at-home orders and social distancing policies. We seem to be the exception to this rule here. I've seen the argument made that the explanation lies in our recent record-breaking surge in gun sales. That too is a fair enough point, but guns don't just sell themselves. People buy them for reasons. Namely because they feel unsafe. The question then becomes one of why so many people suddenly feel that much less safe than a year ago. There's little question that, frankly, the main reason that this sudden surge began right around late May and early June of last year and has persisted since, running parallel to jumps in violent crime in this country, obviously has to do with 1) the murder of George Floyd and increased fear of police violence going along with that, 2) corresponding social de-legitimization of the police by Black Lives Matter resulting in less active police forces broadly, cutbacks in funding for police departments on a smaller scale, lack of prosecution for many crimes in various cities, etc., and 3) violence in the streets itself; it becomes a self-perpetuating problem that continually creates more fear in more people, resulting in turn in increased gun purchases and more concurrent social violence. That would be my personal assessment.

"How [is it] possible that other countries wherein white people are a minority -- sometimes only a fringe minority without any political power to speak of, like in the case of say Japan, for example -- one also often finds exceedingly restrictive immigration policies and bigoted, hostile attitudes toward migrant workers?"

Well, because they have their own systems of oppression at work. The issue is largely a majoritarian one, not a "white" one. White people aren't evil or bigoted because of their skin tone. These trends largely emerge from power. As they say, absolute power corrupts absolutely. It is simply the case that in America, white people have historically held the lions share of power, and as such, society has become tailored to them. These types of discussions seek to explain the way things work in America. Similar human forces are at play in other countries, but through the differences in the countries, the outcome varies. 

"However, Donald Trump's opinions are not exactly reflective of those of most white people in positions of power even in this country, are they?"

While Trump's opinions may not be reflective of a majority, Donald Trump is far from the only one who has been saying these things, and Donald Trump held a lot of systemic power. But does that singular power make this systemic? I would argue that through the outsized influence that Trump has, yes, it is almost inherently systemic. He still arguably leads an entire wing of our government, and his influence holds a lot of power in the news media as well. I find it difficult to not see such a thing as systemic given the fact that seemingly the majority of the Republican party either played along or stayed silent. 

"I really doubt that the black person who attacks an Asian-American over Covid-19 does so because they view themself as inferior to white people."

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. I never insisted that this was the case, and it doesn't have to be the case for anything that I'm speaking about to be true. As previously stated, white supremacy is not really about people outwardly stating that one group is better than another, it is often broken into much smaller pieces, such as the belief that a nuclear family is a superior family structure to, say, living with your parents or extended family units which may be more common in other cultures. People often don't see that there is a supremacist component to these beliefs or feelings. Similarly, memetic ideas such as "Mexicans are stealing our jobs" largely spread through the power of white supremacy. White supremacy goes a lot deeper than simply people believing one group is superior to another group and saying "well, this person didn't say that whites are better, so it must not be relevant here" is a complete and fundamental misunderstanding of what is being discussed. 

"Crime rates"

I think the decreased trust in police may be a better theory about what is the cause here than changes in funding, but I'd like to say that I put the blame for this on the cops who killed George Floyd (and others), not the people who criticized them for it. 

zero129 said:

Wow.. Just WOW. Dude you are so full of shit and i dont care if i get banned for this but really... Its my fault as a white guy if some black on Asian violence breaks out.. Man your a snow flack...

That's not what I said, but you do you man. 

KLAMarine said:

Systems exist but their impact also ultimately comes down to the actions of individuals.

...Okay, so if we acknowledge that systems exist, why is it bad to want to dismantle the harmful impacts of them?

Flilix said:

It's weird to me that one would refer to xenophobia as 'white supremacy'. The distinction is relevant because they're rooted in distinct thinking systems, they have different causes, ideas and possible 'cures'. Xenophobia might be influenced by racial supremacy, but that doesn't mean that there's an inherent or even a strong link. Here in Europe there are for example a lot of moderate right-leaning people who absolutely love immigrants who are well integrated.

The source you posted could prove that the anti-Asian sentiment is more common among powerful white Americans, but not that it's caused by them. Like I said, it's not surprising that it's common among them, but that doesn't mean that a) it's because of their white supremacy, b) they are the reason why others become more anti-Asian.

Putting things like 'white supremacy' or 'systemic racism' as dogmatic principles does not seem very useful to me.

Last paragraph: I was talking about African Africans, not black Americans.

Again, I have to emphasize that this discussion is rooted in America. I make no promises that the same things will hold true in Europe or Africa (?).

So you didnt say "Is it really so far-fetched that White Supremacy would be at the root of Black-on-Asian violence?" ??...

Yes it is so far fetched....



zero129 said:

So you didnt say "Is it really so far-fetched that White Supremacy would be at the root of Black-on-Asian violence?" ??...

Yes it is so far fetched....

Are you the king of White Supremacy or something? Why would you think that that statement is blaming you personally unless you admit that you are a white supremacist...

Hmmmmm