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Forums - Politics Discussion - $5,000 anti-racist dinner parties

sundin13 said:
zero129 said:

So you didnt say "Is it really so far-fetched that White Supremacy would be at the root of Black-on-Asian violence?" ??...

Yes it is so far fetched....

Are you the king of White Supremacy or something? Why would you think that that statement is blaming you personally unless you admit that you are a white supremacist...

Hmmmmm

By your statement you are blaming "All" white people. Its the same as me saying "Is it so hard to believe that such a race is to blame for something" clearly with that statement im blaming the "Whole" race not just a few. I guess from your racist point of few its hard to see this...



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sundin13 said:
Jaicee said:

The Vox article you point to was genuinely interesting and I appreciate that.

But to your larger case about white supremacy, I am basically familiar with what the concept refers to in critical race theory, but find many of the resultant conclusions people draw obscenely simplistic and disingenuous. For example, you argue that a black person who blames immigrants for unemployment or under-employment does so because of white people in positions of power were the original nativists. This begs the question of how it's possible that other countries wherein white people are a minority -- sometimes only a fringe minority without any political power to speak of, like in the case of say Japan, for example -- one also often finds exceedingly restrictive immigration policies and bigoted, hostile attitudes toward migrant workers? You see what I'm saying? Once you get outside of a U.S.-centric worldview and mindset, the entire argument you're making here about "whiteness" being responsible for nativist attitudes falls apart.

Something similar can be said of the racialized association people often make between ethnically Chinese people and Covid-19. Donald Trump personally and specifically bears more responsibility for the popularization of that narrative than anyone else on Earth and that can be statistically demonstrated. However, Donald Trump's opinions are not exactly reflective of those of most white people in positions of power even in this country, are they? Is the matter then, in fact, systemic, or more like the disproportionate influence of a particular narcissistic, xenophobic asshole who was the worst president we've had in my lifetime and only served one term because of it? What I'm proposing here is that perhaps indeed Asian hate is exactly that: Asian hate and not "whiteness". It might be Donald Trump's idea of whiteness, but I really doubt that the black person who attacks an Asian-American over Covid-19 does so because they view themself as inferior to white people.

Anyway, fair enough on the city-by-city breakdown of the crime rates. But I still feel that Carlson has a valid point when he highlights the fact that crime rates have, by contrast, fallen most everywhere else in the world since the onset of Covid-19 and that as much frankly makes sense when you consider the nature of stay-at-home orders and social distancing policies. We seem to be the exception to this rule here. I've seen the argument made that the explanation lies in our recent record-breaking surge in gun sales. That too is a fair enough point, but guns don't just sell themselves. People buy them for reasons. Namely because they feel unsafe. The question then becomes one of why so many people suddenly feel that much less safe than a year ago. There's little question that, frankly, the main reason that this sudden surge began right around late May and early June of last year and has persisted since, running parallel to jumps in violent crime in this country, obviously has to do with 1) the murder of George Floyd and increased fear of police violence going along with that, 2) corresponding social de-legitimization of the police by Black Lives Matter resulting in less active police forces broadly, cutbacks in funding for police departments on a smaller scale, lack of prosecution for many crimes in various cities, etc., and 3) violence in the streets itself; it becomes a self-perpetuating problem that continually creates more fear in more people, resulting in turn in increased gun purchases and more concurrent social violence. That would be my personal assessment.

"How [is it] possible that other countries wherein white people are a minority -- sometimes only a fringe minority without any political power to speak of, like in the case of say Japan, for example -- one also often finds exceedingly restrictive immigration policies and bigoted, hostile attitudes toward migrant workers?"

Well, because they have their own systems of oppression at work. The issue is largely a majoritarian one, not a "white" one. White people aren't evil or bigoted because of their skin tone. These trends largely emerge from power. As they say, absolute power corrupts absolutely. It is simply the case that in America, white people have historically held the lions share of power, and as such, society has become tailored to them. These types of discussions seek to explain the way things work in America. Similar human forces are at play in other countries, but through the differences in the countries, the outcome varies. 

"However, Donald Trump's opinions are not exactly reflective of those of most white people in positions of power even in this country, are they?"

While Trump's opinions may not be reflective of a majority, Donald Trump is far from the only one who has been saying these things, and Donald Trump held a lot of systemic power. But does that singular power make this systemic? I would argue that through the outsized influence that Trump has, yes, it is almost inherently systemic. He still arguably leads an entire wing of our government, and his influence holds a lot of power in the news media as well. I find it difficult to not see such a thing as systemic given the fact that seemingly the majority of the Republican party either played along or stayed silent. 

"I really doubt that the black person who attacks an Asian-American over Covid-19 does so because they view themself as inferior to white people."

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. I never insisted that this was the case, and it doesn't have to be the case for anything that I'm speaking about to be true. As previously stated, white supremacy is not really about people outwardly stating that one group is better than another, it is often broken into much smaller pieces, such as the belief that a nuclear family is a superior family structure to, say, living with your parents or extended family units which may be more common in other cultures. People often don't see that there is a supremacist component to these beliefs or feelings. Similarly, memetic ideas such as "Mexicans are stealing our jobs" largely spread through the power of white supremacy. White supremacy goes a lot deeper than simply people believing one group is superior to another group and saying "well, this person didn't say that whites are better, so it must not be relevant here" is a complete and fundamental misunderstanding of what is being discussed. 

"Crime rates"

I think the decreased trust in police may be a better theory about what is the cause here than changes in funding, but I'd like to say that I put the blame for this on the cops who killed George Floyd (and others), not the people who criticized them for it. 

zero129 said:

Wow.. Just WOW. Dude you are so full of shit and i dont care if i get banned for this but really... Its my fault as a white guy if some black on Asian violence breaks out.. Man your a snow flack...

That's not what I said, but you do you man. 

KLAMarine said:

Systems exist but their impact also ultimately comes down to the actions of individuals.

...Okay, so if we acknowledge that systems exist, why is it bad to want to dismantle the harmful impacts of them?

Flilix said:

It's weird to me that one would refer to xenophobia as 'white supremacy'. The distinction is relevant because they're rooted in distinct thinking systems, they have different causes, ideas and possible 'cures'. Xenophobia might be influenced by racial supremacy, but that doesn't mean that there's an inherent or even a strong link. Here in Europe there are for example a lot of moderate right-leaning people who absolutely love immigrants who are well integrated.

The source you posted could prove that the anti-Asian sentiment is more common among powerful white Americans, but not that it's caused by them. Like I said, it's not surprising that it's common among them, but that doesn't mean that a) it's because of their white supremacy, b) they are the reason why others become more anti-Asian.

Putting things like 'white supremacy' or 'systemic racism' as dogmatic principles does not seem very useful to me.

Last paragraph: I was talking about African Africans, not black Americans.

Again, I have to emphasize that this discussion is rooted in America. I make no promises that the same things will hold true in Europe or Africa (?).

"...Okay, so if we acknowledge that systems exist, why is it bad to want to dismantle the harmful impacts of them?"

Nothing wrong with it, the problem is how one goes about it.

Calling it white supremacy and saying it's white supremacy's fault for a black guy assaulting an Asian person is seriously problematic: no mention of black supremacy for a black guy imposing their violent will on their Asian victim?

Can we call the following black supremacy or is the supremacy condemnation exclusively reserved for white perpetrators?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaBwDwhbols&ab_channel=CBSEveningNewsCBSEveningNewsVerified

I'm looking at zero129's response and I see there's a serious marketing problem: 'racial supremacy' sounds like more marketable terms to me for starters but there's still the problem of racialization of things/actions/ideas that don't have an inherent racial identity.



KLAMarine said:

"...Okay, so if we acknowledge that systems exist, why is it bad to want to dismantle the harmful impacts of them?"

Nothing wrong with it, the problem is how one goes about it.

Calling it white supremacy and saying it's white supremacy's fault for a black guy assaulting an Asian person is seriously problematic: no mention of black supremacy for a black guy imposing their violent will on their Asian victim?

The discussion at hand is largely a discussion of ideas and how they influence behavior. What I've attempted to do is explain the lineage of ideas, and the importance of white supremacy in their inception or their spread. 

As such, it is kind of jumping off topic to make a comment about actions devoid of ideas. If a white man attacks a black man, that is not white supremacy because without further context, it is largely devoid of ideas. Similarly, your hypothetical of "is it black supremacy for a black guy to impose their violent will on their Asian victim" is devoid of ideas, so without further context, I would say no, that is no more "black supremacy" than a context-less assault by a white man would be "white supremacy".

However, in speaking about the Anti-Asian attacks as of late, I have attempted to explain the ideas behind the general pattern (To emphasize again, I am not speaking about any specific incident, but instead the general pattern). I have attempted to point out that the motivation behind many of these attacks is the racist or xenophobic ideas pushed largely by white men in power (often in relation to Covid). It is the lineage of these ideas in the United States which are used to prescribe an action as influenced by white power, not the race of the individual acting on them. 

zero129 said:
sundin13 said:

Are you the king of White Supremacy or something? Why would you think that that statement is blaming you personally unless you admit that you are a white supremacist...

Hmmmmm

By your statement you are blaming "All" white people. Its the same as me saying "Is it so hard to believe that such a race is to blame for something" clearly with that statement im blaming the "Whole" race not just a few. I guess from your racist point of few its hard to see this...

Again, I find it interesting that from "Is it really so far-fetched that White Supremacy would be at the root of Black-on-Asian violence?", you read that I am blaming "all white people". This would only be the case if all white people were individually responsible for White Supremacy. 

Personally, I don't believe that "white supremacy" and "white people" are synonymous but if you want to make that argument, go off King.



sundin13 said:
KLAMarine said:

"...Okay, so if we acknowledge that systems exist, why is it bad to want to dismantle the harmful impacts of them?"

Nothing wrong with it, the problem is how one goes about it.

Calling it white supremacy and saying it's white supremacy's fault for a black guy assaulting an Asian person is seriously problematic: no mention of black supremacy for a black guy imposing their violent will on their Asian victim?

The discussion at hand is largely a discussion of ideas and how they influence behavior. What I've attempted to do is explain the lineage of ideas, and the importance of white supremacy in their inception or their spread. 

As such, it is kind of jumping off topic to make a comment about actions devoid of ideas. If a white man attacks a black man, that is not white supremacy because without further context, it is largely devoid of ideas. Similarly, your hypothetical of "is it black supremacy for a black guy to impose their violent will on their Asian victim" is devoid of ideas, so without further context, I would say no, that is no more "black supremacy" than a context-less assault by a white man would be "white supremacy".

However, in speaking about the Anti-Asian attacks as of late, I have attempted to explain the ideas behind the general pattern (To emphasize again, I am not speaking about any specific incident, but instead the general pattern). I have attempted to point out that the motivation behind many of these attacks is the racist or xenophobic ideas pushed largely by white men in power (often in relation to Covid). It is the lineage of these ideas in the United States which are used to prescribe an action as influenced by white power, not the race of the individual acting on them. 

zero129 said:

By your statement you are blaming "All" white people. Its the same as me saying "Is it so hard to believe that such a race is to blame for something" clearly with that statement im blaming the "Whole" race not just a few. I guess from your racist point of few its hard to see this...

Again, I find it interesting that from "Is it really so far-fetched that White Supremacy would be at the root of Black-on-Asian violence?", you read that I am blaming "all white people". This would only be the case if all white people were individually responsible for White Supremacy. 

Personally, I don't believe that "white supremacy" and "white people" are synonymous but if you want to make that argument, go off King.

"racist or xenophobic ideas pushed largely by white men in power"

>So what are these ideas you refer to here and what major outlet is pushing them? If the idea is "attack Asians so the virus will go away", you'll find me agreeing with you wholeheartedly to the lunacy of such an idea but I doubt any major outlet is pushing such a ridiculous idea.

Let's get to some examples here.



KLAMarine said:

"racist or xenophobic ideas pushed largely by white men in power"

>So what are these ideas you refer to here and what major outlet is pushing them? If the idea is "attack Asians so the virus will go away", you'll find me agreeing with you wholeheartedly to the lunacy of such an idea but I doubt any major outlet is pushing such a ridiculous idea.

Let's get to some examples here.

Well, there has been a pretty dedicated PR campaign going on within the Republican establishment to constantly associate the Coronavirus with China. While of course it should be acknowledged that the virus originated in China, the party has gone far beyond that, instead largely using China as a scapegoat. This is not just a coincidence but a planned strategy. Here is a snippet of a Republican messaging guide sent out by the National Republican Senatorial Committee regarding the strategy on Coronavirus, demonstrating that their goal in addressing the pandemic was to convince people that the failure of the US to handle the virus was China's fault:

The entire political strategy can be summarized as simply as "Blame China". 

While the party did usually attempt to walk the line between the more crazy xenophobic takes and dogwhistles, at times they did step over that line.

For example, Peter Navarro, White House Trade Advisor under Trump made the claim that China "sent hundreds of thousands of Chinese on aircraft to Milan, New York and around the world to seed [Covid-19]", or Trump himself asserting that coronavirus was "the worst attack we've ever had on our country, this is worst attack we've ever had. This is worse than Pearl Harbor, this is worse than the World Trade Center. There's never been an attack like this." Further, when Pelosi encouraged people to go to Chinatown due to increasing anti-Asian sentiments, Trump extended the danger of China to American Chinatown, responding "Crazy Nancy Pelosi deleted this from her Twitter account. She wanted everyone to pack into Chinatown long after I closed the BORDER TO CHINA. Based on her statement, she is responsible for many deaths. She's an incompetent, third-rate politician!"

It shouldn't need to be stated, but there is no evidence that Coronavirus was intentionally spread by China or was an attack by China. Rhetoric like this is dangerous, and Republicans were repeatedly warned that this type of xenophobic rhetoric would have consequences. By making the Coronavirus into an attack by China, and asserting that China was sending people around the world to "seed" the disease, and basically accusing American Chinatowns of being dangerous, Trump and the Republican party helped to create and perpetuate the idea that Chinese or Asian individuals are dangerous disease spreaders, perhaps even sent by China to attack America. 

But this doesn't just go back to last year. A substantial part of the damage in relation to anti-Chinese rhetoric comes from the historical othering or exoticizing Asian Americans. This creates the idea of the "perpetual foreigner", something that is often target at many different minority groups. While this is a deeply embedded historical idea which has been around for centuries (think the Naturalization Act of 1906 and Japanese-American internment camps in WW2), the idea is still pervasive today. For an example of a News segment acting on this "othering" of Asian Americans, take this Fox News piece from 2016, where they went to interview people in Chinatown, pushing a myriad of stereotypes in the process: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJmnLzw8NA4



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sundin13 said:
KLAMarine said:

"racist or xenophobic ideas pushed largely by white men in power"

>So what are these ideas you refer to here and what major outlet is pushing them? If the idea is "attack Asians so the virus will go away", you'll find me agreeing with you wholeheartedly to the lunacy of such an idea but I doubt any major outlet is pushing such a ridiculous idea.

Let's get to some examples here.

Well, there has been a pretty dedicated PR campaign going on within the Republican establishment to constantly associate the Coronavirus with China. While of course it should be acknowledged that the virus originated in China, the party has gone far beyond that, instead largely using China as a scapegoat. This is not just a coincidence but a planned strategy. Here is a snippet of a Republican messaging guide sent out by the National Republican Senatorial Committee regarding the strategy on Coronavirus, demonstrating that their goal in addressing the pandemic was to convince people that the failure of the US to handle the virus was China's fault:

The entire political strategy can be summarized as simply as "Blame China". 

While the party did usually attempt to walk the line between the more crazy xenophobic takes and dogwhistles, at times they did step over that line.

For example, Peter Navarro, White House Trade Advisor under Trump made the claim that China "sent hundreds of thousands of Chinese on aircraft to Milan, New York and around the world to seed [Covid-19]", or Trump himself asserting that coronavirus was "the worst attack we've ever had on our country, this is worst attack we've ever had. This is worse than Pearl Harbor, this is worse than the World Trade Center. There's never been an attack like this." Further, when Pelosi encouraged people to go to Chinatown due to increasing anti-Asian sentiments, Trump extended the danger of China to American Chinatown, responding "Crazy Nancy Pelosi deleted this from her Twitter account. She wanted everyone to pack into Chinatown long after I closed the BORDER TO CHINA. Based on her statement, she is responsible for many deaths. She's an incompetent, third-rate politician!"

It shouldn't need to be stated, but there is no evidence that Coronavirus was intentionally spread by China or was an attack by China. Rhetoric like this is dangerous, and Republicans were repeatedly warned that this type of xenophobic rhetoric would have consequences. By making the Coronavirus into an attack by China, and asserting that China was sending people around the world to "seed" the disease, and basically accusing American Chinatowns of being dangerous, Trump and the Republican party helped to create and perpetuate the idea that Chinese or Asian individuals are dangerous disease spreaders, perhaps even sent by China to attack America. 

But this doesn't just go back to last year. A substantial part of the damage in relation to anti-Chinese rhetoric comes from the historical othering or exoticizing Asian Americans. This creates the idea of the "perpetual foreigner", something that is often target at many different minority groups. While this is a deeply embedded historical idea which has been around for centuries (think the Naturalization Act of 1906 and Japanese-American internment camps in WW2), the idea is still pervasive today. For an example of a News segment acting on this "othering" of Asian Americans, take this Fox News piece from 2016, where they went to interview people in Chinatown, pushing a myriad of stereotypes in the process: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJmnLzw8NA4

To summarize, anti-Chinese rhetoric spurs on anti-Asian attacks?

Makes some sense...

Using the same logic, can we hold those who speak out against 'white supremacy', 'white privilege', 'white racism', 'white anything' accountable for attacks like these? Can I blame anti-white rhetoric for creating the atmosphere?..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IavvBtR_to



KLAMarine said:

To summarize, anti-Chinese rhetoric spurs on anti-Asian attacks?

Makes some sense...

Using the same logic, can we hold those who speak out against 'white supremacy', 'white privilege', 'white racism', 'white anything' accountable for attacks like these? Can I blame anti-white rhetoric for creating the atmosphere?..

You could certainly argue that the existence of white supremacy creates tension between those who suffer under these systems and those who benefit under these systems, however to place the blame on those who are calling out these damaging systems and not the damaging systems themselves seems ludicrous to me.



sundin13 said:
KLAMarine said:

To summarize, anti-Chinese rhetoric spurs on anti-Asian attacks?

Makes some sense...

Using the same logic, can we hold those who speak out against 'white supremacy', 'white privilege', 'white racism', 'white anything' accountable for attacks like these? Can I blame anti-white rhetoric for creating the atmosphere?..

You could certainly argue that the existence of white supremacy creates tension between those who suffer under these systems and those who benefit under these systems, however to place the blame on those who are calling out these damaging systems and not the damaging systems themselves seems ludicrous to me.

I agree, very ludicrous.

What isn't ludicrous is calling out HOW 'white supremacy' is called out. The very racialization of 'systems' and 'privilege', for example, is very problematic, leads to 'othering', something you condemned in this very thread, yet some do not hesitate to 'other' whites and create the setting for injustices like another disabled teen getting kidnapped and tortured.

Let's proceed more carefully.



Just to get it straight.
Didn`t China lied and took long time to acknowledge Coronavirus menace?
Haven`t scientists recently started putting more weight on Coronavirus as an accident on the research of it on laboratory dating to the discovery of several forms of it in 2012?

Haven`t China used what it could to make the investigation not effective?

But I`m glad so many defensors of democracy are happy to defend dictatorships.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

White supremacy is a miniscule threat to the modern world, really. Incidents of police brutality isn't proof of its existence either. A poorly defined term anyway, just like how "defund the police" is another poorly defined slogan. Which works for those who continuously want to populise these terms as they weasel themselves out of any valid critical objection.

I honestly find this "White Women: Everything You Already Know About Your Own Racism and How to Do Better" book to be odd. I just don't get it. Going by national numbers, I know I am more successful financially than most of my peers and that includes white women, yet, I barely have the time to play the occasional video game and spend months trying to make time to finish a single TV show.. Surely the less fortunate don't spend their lives being racists, is there even a time for it? Outside of voting to politicians championing progressive policies, what else can you do? Paying reparations? Not that I am against that (I'd be paid after all, maybe), but paid dinners is not something you want to ask your average joe who's probably working 5 days a week chasing small big dreams minding their own business, which is the majority of us. These dinners and this book don't help further any noble causes.