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Forums - Politics Discussion - $5,000 anti-racist dinner parties

sundin13 said:
KLAMarine said:

"...Okay, so if we acknowledge that systems exist, why is it bad to want to dismantle the harmful impacts of them?"

Nothing wrong with it, the problem is how one goes about it.

Calling it white supremacy and saying it's white supremacy's fault for a black guy assaulting an Asian person is seriously problematic: no mention of black supremacy for a black guy imposing their violent will on their Asian victim?

The discussion at hand is largely a discussion of ideas and how they influence behavior. What I've attempted to do is explain the lineage of ideas, and the importance of white supremacy in their inception or their spread. 

As such, it is kind of jumping off topic to make a comment about actions devoid of ideas. If a white man attacks a black man, that is not white supremacy because without further context, it is largely devoid of ideas. Similarly, your hypothetical of "is it black supremacy for a black guy to impose their violent will on their Asian victim" is devoid of ideas, so without further context, I would say no, that is no more "black supremacy" than a context-less assault by a white man would be "white supremacy".

However, in speaking about the Anti-Asian attacks as of late, I have attempted to explain the ideas behind the general pattern (To emphasize again, I am not speaking about any specific incident, but instead the general pattern). I have attempted to point out that the motivation behind many of these attacks is the racist or xenophobic ideas pushed largely by white men in power (often in relation to Covid). It is the lineage of these ideas in the United States which are used to prescribe an action as influenced by white power, not the race of the individual acting on them. 

zero129 said:

By your statement you are blaming "All" white people. Its the same as me saying "Is it so hard to believe that such a race is to blame for something" clearly with that statement im blaming the "Whole" race not just a few. I guess from your racist point of few its hard to see this...

Again, I find it interesting that from "Is it really so far-fetched that White Supremacy would be at the root of Black-on-Asian violence?", you read that I am blaming "all white people". This would only be the case if all white people were individually responsible for White Supremacy. 

Personally, I don't believe that "white supremacy" and "white people" are synonymous but if you want to make that argument, go off King.

"racist or xenophobic ideas pushed largely by white men in power"

>So what are these ideas you refer to here and what major outlet is pushing them? If the idea is "attack Asians so the virus will go away", you'll find me agreeing with you wholeheartedly to the lunacy of such an idea but I doubt any major outlet is pushing such a ridiculous idea.

Let's get to some examples here.



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KLAMarine said:

"racist or xenophobic ideas pushed largely by white men in power"

>So what are these ideas you refer to here and what major outlet is pushing them? If the idea is "attack Asians so the virus will go away", you'll find me agreeing with you wholeheartedly to the lunacy of such an idea but I doubt any major outlet is pushing such a ridiculous idea.

Let's get to some examples here.

Well, there has been a pretty dedicated PR campaign going on within the Republican establishment to constantly associate the Coronavirus with China. While of course it should be acknowledged that the virus originated in China, the party has gone far beyond that, instead largely using China as a scapegoat. This is not just a coincidence but a planned strategy. Here is a snippet of a Republican messaging guide sent out by the National Republican Senatorial Committee regarding the strategy on Coronavirus, demonstrating that their goal in addressing the pandemic was to convince people that the failure of the US to handle the virus was China's fault:

The entire political strategy can be summarized as simply as "Blame China". 

While the party did usually attempt to walk the line between the more crazy xenophobic takes and dogwhistles, at times they did step over that line.

For example, Peter Navarro, White House Trade Advisor under Trump made the claim that China "sent hundreds of thousands of Chinese on aircraft to Milan, New York and around the world to seed [Covid-19]", or Trump himself asserting that coronavirus was "the worst attack we've ever had on our country, this is worst attack we've ever had. This is worse than Pearl Harbor, this is worse than the World Trade Center. There's never been an attack like this." Further, when Pelosi encouraged people to go to Chinatown due to increasing anti-Asian sentiments, Trump extended the danger of China to American Chinatown, responding "Crazy Nancy Pelosi deleted this from her Twitter account. She wanted everyone to pack into Chinatown long after I closed the BORDER TO CHINA. Based on her statement, she is responsible for many deaths. She's an incompetent, third-rate politician!"

It shouldn't need to be stated, but there is no evidence that Coronavirus was intentionally spread by China or was an attack by China. Rhetoric like this is dangerous, and Republicans were repeatedly warned that this type of xenophobic rhetoric would have consequences. By making the Coronavirus into an attack by China, and asserting that China was sending people around the world to "seed" the disease, and basically accusing American Chinatowns of being dangerous, Trump and the Republican party helped to create and perpetuate the idea that Chinese or Asian individuals are dangerous disease spreaders, perhaps even sent by China to attack America. 

But this doesn't just go back to last year. A substantial part of the damage in relation to anti-Chinese rhetoric comes from the historical othering or exoticizing Asian Americans. This creates the idea of the "perpetual foreigner", something that is often target at many different minority groups. While this is a deeply embedded historical idea which has been around for centuries (think the Naturalization Act of 1906 and Japanese-American internment camps in WW2), the idea is still pervasive today. For an example of a News segment acting on this "othering" of Asian Americans, take this Fox News piece from 2016, where they went to interview people in Chinatown, pushing a myriad of stereotypes in the process: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJmnLzw8NA4



sundin13 said:
KLAMarine said:

"racist or xenophobic ideas pushed largely by white men in power"

>So what are these ideas you refer to here and what major outlet is pushing them? If the idea is "attack Asians so the virus will go away", you'll find me agreeing with you wholeheartedly to the lunacy of such an idea but I doubt any major outlet is pushing such a ridiculous idea.

Let's get to some examples here.

Well, there has been a pretty dedicated PR campaign going on within the Republican establishment to constantly associate the Coronavirus with China. While of course it should be acknowledged that the virus originated in China, the party has gone far beyond that, instead largely using China as a scapegoat. This is not just a coincidence but a planned strategy. Here is a snippet of a Republican messaging guide sent out by the National Republican Senatorial Committee regarding the strategy on Coronavirus, demonstrating that their goal in addressing the pandemic was to convince people that the failure of the US to handle the virus was China's fault:

The entire political strategy can be summarized as simply as "Blame China". 

While the party did usually attempt to walk the line between the more crazy xenophobic takes and dogwhistles, at times they did step over that line.

For example, Peter Navarro, White House Trade Advisor under Trump made the claim that China "sent hundreds of thousands of Chinese on aircraft to Milan, New York and around the world to seed [Covid-19]", or Trump himself asserting that coronavirus was "the worst attack we've ever had on our country, this is worst attack we've ever had. This is worse than Pearl Harbor, this is worse than the World Trade Center. There's never been an attack like this." Further, when Pelosi encouraged people to go to Chinatown due to increasing anti-Asian sentiments, Trump extended the danger of China to American Chinatown, responding "Crazy Nancy Pelosi deleted this from her Twitter account. She wanted everyone to pack into Chinatown long after I closed the BORDER TO CHINA. Based on her statement, she is responsible for many deaths. She's an incompetent, third-rate politician!"

It shouldn't need to be stated, but there is no evidence that Coronavirus was intentionally spread by China or was an attack by China. Rhetoric like this is dangerous, and Republicans were repeatedly warned that this type of xenophobic rhetoric would have consequences. By making the Coronavirus into an attack by China, and asserting that China was sending people around the world to "seed" the disease, and basically accusing American Chinatowns of being dangerous, Trump and the Republican party helped to create and perpetuate the idea that Chinese or Asian individuals are dangerous disease spreaders, perhaps even sent by China to attack America. 

But this doesn't just go back to last year. A substantial part of the damage in relation to anti-Chinese rhetoric comes from the historical othering or exoticizing Asian Americans. This creates the idea of the "perpetual foreigner", something that is often target at many different minority groups. While this is a deeply embedded historical idea which has been around for centuries (think the Naturalization Act of 1906 and Japanese-American internment camps in WW2), the idea is still pervasive today. For an example of a News segment acting on this "othering" of Asian Americans, take this Fox News piece from 2016, where they went to interview people in Chinatown, pushing a myriad of stereotypes in the process: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJmnLzw8NA4

To summarize, anti-Chinese rhetoric spurs on anti-Asian attacks?

Makes some sense...

Using the same logic, can we hold those who speak out against 'white supremacy', 'white privilege', 'white racism', 'white anything' accountable for attacks like these? Can I blame anti-white rhetoric for creating the atmosphere?..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IavvBtR_to



KLAMarine said:

To summarize, anti-Chinese rhetoric spurs on anti-Asian attacks?

Makes some sense...

Using the same logic, can we hold those who speak out against 'white supremacy', 'white privilege', 'white racism', 'white anything' accountable for attacks like these? Can I blame anti-white rhetoric for creating the atmosphere?..

You could certainly argue that the existence of white supremacy creates tension between those who suffer under these systems and those who benefit under these systems, however to place the blame on those who are calling out these damaging systems and not the damaging systems themselves seems ludicrous to me.



sundin13 said:
KLAMarine said:

To summarize, anti-Chinese rhetoric spurs on anti-Asian attacks?

Makes some sense...

Using the same logic, can we hold those who speak out against 'white supremacy', 'white privilege', 'white racism', 'white anything' accountable for attacks like these? Can I blame anti-white rhetoric for creating the atmosphere?..

You could certainly argue that the existence of white supremacy creates tension between those who suffer under these systems and those who benefit under these systems, however to place the blame on those who are calling out these damaging systems and not the damaging systems themselves seems ludicrous to me.

I agree, very ludicrous.

What isn't ludicrous is calling out HOW 'white supremacy' is called out. The very racialization of 'systems' and 'privilege', for example, is very problematic, leads to 'othering', something you condemned in this very thread, yet some do not hesitate to 'other' whites and create the setting for injustices like another disabled teen getting kidnapped and tortured.

Let's proceed more carefully.



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Just to get it straight.
Didn`t China lied and took long time to acknowledge Coronavirus menace?
Haven`t scientists recently started putting more weight on Coronavirus as an accident on the research of it on laboratory dating to the discovery of several forms of it in 2012?

Haven`t China used what it could to make the investigation not effective?

But I`m glad so many defensors of democracy are happy to defend dictatorships.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

White supremacy is a miniscule threat to the modern world, really. Incidents of police brutality isn't proof of its existence either. A poorly defined term anyway, just like how "defund the police" is another poorly defined slogan. Which works for those who continuously want to populise these terms as they weasel themselves out of any valid critical objection.

I honestly find this "White Women: Everything You Already Know About Your Own Racism and How to Do Better" book to be odd. I just don't get it. Going by national numbers, I know I am more successful financially than most of my peers and that includes white women, yet, I barely have the time to play the occasional video game and spend months trying to make time to finish a single TV show.. Surely the less fortunate don't spend their lives being racists, is there even a time for it? Outside of voting to politicians championing progressive policies, what else can you do? Paying reparations? Not that I am against that (I'd be paid after all, maybe), but paid dinners is not something you want to ask your average joe who's probably working 5 days a week chasing small big dreams minding their own business, which is the majority of us. These dinners and this book don't help further any noble causes.



Jaicee said:

WARNING: THIS POST CONTAINS INSENSITIVE DEPICTIONS OF MARGINALIZED COMMUNITIES. THESE STEREOTYPES WERE WRONG THEN AND THEY WILL STILL BE WRONG IN THE FUTURE. RATHER THAN REMOVE THIS CONTENT, I WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE ITS HARMFUL IMPACT, LEARN FROM IT AND SPARK CONVERSATION TO CREATE A MORE INCLUSIVE FUTURE TOGETHER.

Earlier, @Mr Puggsly wrote:

Spoiler!
I am pretty sure you're racist regardless if you do it. Woke scripture deems it so.


I just want to remind everyone that silence is violence. Anything else is complicity in genocide by the systems of white supremacy that govern our lives in the imperialist order of the United $naKKKe$ of AmeriKKKA, including the genocide directed toward Black transwomen. Check your privilege.

</more racial justice cliches>

Now that the thread has died down a bit I just want to point out how uncomfortable it is that you're making jokes about black transwomen genocide whilst having acknowledged publicly in the past to being a TERF. I get that the joke is that the genocide doesn't exist in the first place and that it would be an outrageous claim to say it does, but regardless the joke feels pretty tasteless. Might want to think about that a bit next time, just an fyi. 



KLAMarine said:
sundin13 said:

You could certainly argue that the existence of white supremacy creates tension between those who suffer under these systems and those who benefit under these systems, however to place the blame on those who are calling out these damaging systems and not the damaging systems themselves seems ludicrous to me.

I agree, very ludicrous.

What isn't ludicrous is calling out HOW 'white supremacy' is called out. The very racialization of 'systems' and 'privilege', for example, is very problematic, leads to 'othering', something you condemned in this very thread, yet some do not hesitate to 'other' whites and create the setting for injustices like another disabled teen getting kidnapped and tortured.

Let's proceed more carefully.

If I have crossed a line anywhere in my comments in this thread or otherwise, I encourage you to call it out. However, I take umbrage with the implication that calling out white supremacy is in itself an example of racism. This seems to be an incredibly lazy way of excusing and enabling these systems, by putting blame on those who seek to dismantle them. 

Further, in the absence of individuals calling out white supremacy, the harm done by white supremacy does not disappear, and the animosity felt by individuals who suffer under it does not disappear. When met with silence and inaction, white supremacy grows. It is through the voices of those who have stood up to white supremacy that we have made the tremendous progress that we have made over the last century, and if we are to continue to make progress over the next century, it will be through the voices of those who continue stand up to white supremacy. 



sundin13 said:
KLAMarine said:

I agree, very ludicrous.

What isn't ludicrous is calling out HOW 'white supremacy' is called out. The very racialization of 'systems' and 'privilege', for example, is very problematic, leads to 'othering', something you condemned in this very thread, yet some do not hesitate to 'other' whites and create the setting for injustices like another disabled teen getting kidnapped and tortured.

Let's proceed more carefully.

If I have crossed a line anywhere in my comments in this thread or otherwise, I encourage you to call it out. However, I take umbrage with the implication that calling out white supremacy is in itself an example of racism. This seems to be an incredibly lazy way of excusing and enabling these systems, by putting blame on those who seek to dismantle them. 

Further, in the absence of individuals calling out white supremacy, the harm done by white supremacy does not disappear, and the animosity felt by individuals who suffer under it does not disappear. When met with silence and inaction, white supremacy grows. It is through the voices of those who have stood up to white supremacy that we have made the tremendous progress that we have made over the last century, and if we are to continue to make progress over the next century, it will be through the voices of those who continue stand up to white supremacy. 

Where I believe you have been in error is ballooning the definition of white supremacy to include more than the term seems to hold.

white su·prem·a·cy

  • noun
  • noun: white supremacy
the belief that white people constitute a superior race and should therefore dominate society, typically to the exclusion or detriment of other racial and ethnic groups, in particular black or Jewish people.
  • White supremacy or white supremacism is the belief that white people are superior to those of other "races" and thus should dominate them. The belief favors the ...
  • Most white supremacists today further believe that the white race is in danger of extinction due to a rising “flood” of non-whites
  • Definition of White Supremacy by Merriam-Webster

White supremacy definition is - the belief that the white race is inherently superior to other races and that white people should have control over people of other ...

Notice out of the top results they all refer to it as a belief, not a system, not the societal morals.  If anything you seem to be conflating the term with the term White Supremacy Culture as described here: https://www.showingupforracialjustice.org/white-supremacy-culture.html

If you are trying to change the definition of a word to fit your own view is it any wonder so many are having a hard time with that?

Edit - sorry the formatting went all wonky on me and ran everything together making it harder to read and tell that those were the definitions from 4 different sources

Last edited by The_Yoda - on 02 June 2021