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Forums - Politics Discussion - $5,000 anti-racist dinner parties

Jaicee said:
sundin13 said:

"How [is it] possible that other countries wherein white people are a minority -- sometimes only a fringe minority without any political power to speak of, like in the case of say Japan, for example -- one also often finds exceedingly restrictive immigration policies and bigoted, hostile attitudes toward migrant workers?"

[1] Well, because they have their own systems of oppression at work. The issue is largely a majoritarian one, not a "white" one. White people aren't evil or bigoted because of their skin tone. These trends largely emerge from power. As they say, absolute power corrupts absolutely. It is simply the case that in America, white people have historically held the lions share of power, and as such, society has become tailored to them. These types of discussions seek to explain the way things work in America. Similar human forces are at play in other countries, but through the differences in the countries, the outcome varies. 

"However, Donald Trump's opinions are not exactly reflective of those of most white people in positions of power even in this country, are they?"

[2] While Trump's opinions may not be reflective of a majority, Donald Trump is far from the only one who has been saying these things, and Donald Trump held a lot of systemic power. But does that singular power make this systemic? I would argue that through the outsized influence that Trump has, yes, it is almost inherently systemic. He still arguably leads an entire wing of our government, and his influence holds a lot of power in the news media as well. I find it difficult to not see such a thing as systemic given the fact that seemingly the majority of the Republican party either played along or stayed silent. 

"I really doubt that the black person who attacks an Asian-American over Covid-19 does so because they view themself as inferior to white people."

[3] I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. I never insisted that this was the case, and it doesn't have to be the case for anything that I'm speaking about to be true. As previously stated, white supremacy is not really about people outwardly stating that one group is better than another, it is often broken into much smaller pieces, such as the belief that a nuclear family is a superior family structure to, say, living with your parents or extended family units which may be more common in other cultures. People often don't see that there is a supremacist component to these beliefs or feelings. Similarly, memetic ideas such as "Mexicans are stealing our jobs" largely spread through the power of white supremacy. White supremacy goes a lot deeper than simply people believing one group is superior to another group and saying "well, this person didn't say that whites are better, so it must not be relevant here" is a complete and fundamental misunderstanding of what is being discussed. 

"Crime rates"

[4] I think the decreased trust in police may be a better theory about what is the cause here than changes in funding, but I'd like to say that I put the blame for this on the cops who killed George Floyd (and others), not the people who criticized them for it. 

[1] I think we agree here.

[2] Okay, this represents a different definition of the term "system" than what I would mean by it. I mean I don't disagree with the substance of what you're saying here, but when I think of a general social system, I'm thinking of something that persistently governs society overall, not just one party or or a particular subset of a subset of Americans.

[3] Don't you see what you're doing here though? You're taking something very simple and concrete and trying to make something very complicated and subjective out of it because it is the only way to blame white people for hate crimes that don't involve them. That sort of thinking is the crux of critical race theory: it begins with the goal of finding a way of blaming white people for literally all of the worlds problems and proceeds to explain based upon this predetermined, simplistic conclusion. The conclusion is simple. The explanation from whence it proceeds, on the other hand, becomes so subjective and complex that it's nigh impossible to even comprehend.

[4] That's just a very dualistic, Marxian way of viewing life, IMO. The origin of the issue here is yes the need the problem of white racism in much of our policing and criminal justice system in this country. But the issue is clearly more than just its origin at this point. A gunman opportunistically gunning down a child or someone who pushes someone in front of a subway car is not 'criticizing the cops', they're committing a violent crime. The certain vacuum that has come in the wake of George Floyd's murder last year has taken on a life of its own and it has to be addressed to if we're serious about valuing black lives, frankly.

[2] Again, I find it hard to comprehend the idea that the literal lawmaking bodies in this country aren't considered by you to be something that "governs society overall", when that is literally their job, but I digress...

[3] First of all, I am not blaming white people for hate crimes (and I am certainly not blaming white people for "literally all of the worlds problems"). I am tracing the lineage of the ideas that inspire these crimes. I've laid this out several times in a way which, to me, seems pretty simple and intuitive and as of yet, you (or anyone else) hasn't really demonstrated that I have been out of line in my line of logic. I don't see what is so hard to understand that if someone acts on a white supremacist idea, we can point to the white supremacist origins of this idea as an important contributor regardless of the race of the individual who acted upon the idea. 

I have to say, of all people on this forum, I am surprised to see you raising such an issue with what I am saying, when at its core, it is virtually indistinguishable from feminist theory... I would very much like to have a conversation about what Feminism means to you at some point, but this likely isn't the place.

[4] We are clearly not speaking on the same terms here, so I'll outline the logic of the point I was making real quick:

-Cops take inappropriate action
-Individuals/groups call out this inappropriate action, bringing attention which reduces trust in police
-Victim of crime does not report to the police due to a lack of trust
-Individual who committed crime is not caught and is able to commit additional crime

I am not stating that an individual committing crime is a "criticism of the cops", I am saying that criticism of the cops like the rallies we saw last summer have led to a decrease in trust in police which should be seen as the fault of the police taking inappropriate action, not the fault of the people complaining about it. 

KLAMarine said:

"The term white supremacy is used in some academic studies of racial power to denote a system of structural or societal racism which privileges white people over others, regardless of the presence or the absence of racial hatred."

>One could just go with something more neutral like "systematic bias" or "racial bias" rather than racializing the terms and 'other' whites in the process...

This whole conversation is inherently racial. It is a conversation about how white power has created a system of white supremacy which favors whiteness over non-whiteness. You can't subtract the "white" from the conversation, without subtracting the conversation.



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sundin13 said:
Jaicee said:

[1] I think we agree here.

[2] Okay, this represents a different definition of the term "system" than what I would mean by it. I mean I don't disagree with the substance of what you're saying here, but when I think of a general social system, I'm thinking of something that persistently governs society overall, not just one party or or a particular subset of a subset of Americans.

[3] Don't you see what you're doing here though? You're taking something very simple and concrete and trying to make something very complicated and subjective out of it because it is the only way to blame white people for hate crimes that don't involve them. That sort of thinking is the crux of critical race theory: it begins with the goal of finding a way of blaming white people for literally all of the worlds problems and proceeds to explain based upon this predetermined, simplistic conclusion. The conclusion is simple. The explanation from whence it proceeds, on the other hand, becomes so subjective and complex that it's nigh impossible to even comprehend.

[4] That's just a very dualistic, Marxian way of viewing life, IMO. The origin of the issue here is yes the need the problem of white racism in much of our policing and criminal justice system in this country. But the issue is clearly more than just its origin at this point. A gunman opportunistically gunning down a child or someone who pushes someone in front of a subway car is not 'criticizing the cops', they're committing a violent crime. The certain vacuum that has come in the wake of George Floyd's murder last year has taken on a life of its own and it has to be addressed to if we're serious about valuing black lives, frankly.

[2] Again, I find it hard to comprehend the idea that the literal lawmaking bodies in this country aren't considered by you to be something that "governs society overall", when that is literally their job, but I digress...

[3] First of all, I am not blaming white people for hate crimes (and I am certainly not blaming white people for "literally all of the worlds problems"). I am tracing the lineage of the ideas that inspire these crimes. I've laid this out several times in a way which, to me, seems pretty simple and intuitive and as of yet, you (or anyone else) hasn't really demonstrated that I have been out of line in my line of logic. I don't see what is so hard to understand that if someone acts on a white supremacist idea, we can point to the white supremacist origins of this idea as an important contributor regardless of the race of the individual who acted upon the idea. 

I have to say, of all people on this forum, I am surprised to see you raising such an issue with what I am saying, when at its core, it is virtually indistinguishable from feminist theory... I would very much like to have a conversation about what Feminism means to you at some point, but this likely isn't the place.

[4] We are clearly not speaking on the same terms here, so I'll outline the logic of the point I was making real quick:

-Cops take inappropriate action
-Individuals/groups call out this inappropriate action, bringing attention which reduces trust in police
-Victim of crime does not report to the police due to a lack of trust
-Individual who committed crime is not caught and is able to commit additional crime

I am not stating that an individual committing crime is a "criticism of the cops", I am saying that criticism of the cops like the rallies we saw last summer have led to a decrease in trust in police which should be seen as the fault of the police taking inappropriate action, not the fault of the people complaining about it. 

KLAMarine said:

"The term white supremacy is used in some academic studies of racial power to denote a system of structural or societal racism which privileges white people over others, regardless of the presence or the absence of racial hatred."

>One could just go with something more neutral like "systematic bias" or "racial bias" rather than racializing the terms and 'other' whites in the process...

This whole conversation is inherently racial. It is a conversation about how white power has created a system of white supremacy which favors whiteness over non-whiteness. You can't subtract the "white" from the conversation, without subtracting the conversation.

"You can't subtract the "white" from the conversation, without subtracting the conversation."

>I disagree.

"white power has created a system of white supremacy which favors whiteness over non-whiteness."

->

"racial power has created a system of racial supremacy which favors some races over others."

A positive here is you no longer 'other' whites in the first sentence. I hope you agree!



KLAMarine said:

Let me make it simple:

If you object to the usage of the terms 'China virus' and regard it as partially to blame for black-on-Asian violence, I can object to the usage of the terms 'white supremacy' and blame it partially for black-on-white violence.

A few distinctions here

- white people make up the majority of the population, most of the politicians, most of the rich people are white.  

If you were in China, telling people that the 'China virus' is killing people, no one is going to get the idea that it's actually the fault of the Chinese individuals. Unless they have some weird issues, they're not going to start attacking their neighbors, or boycotting restaurants that happen to be run by Chinese people.

- White supremacy is advocated for, by and large by a subset of white people. 'China virus' isn't advocated in the same way.  If millions of Chinese people were advocating for the virus, then yeah, it'd be pretty fair to blame them. Last I checked, there aren't any Chinese versions of the KKK intentionally spreading coronavirus towards non-chinese people.



KLAMarine said:

"racial power has created a system of racial supremacy which favors some races over others."

A positive here is you no longer 'other' whites in the first sentence. I hope you agree!

And if we continue that thought for more than a single, vague sentence, you immediately have to confront how we are talking about white power and white supremacy. The only way to avoid that is by avoiding the conversation, and all that avoiding the conversation accomplishes is enabling white supremacy to continue unchallenged. 

And whites being othered is not an unintentional side effect of white supremacy, or something that only occurs when white supremacy is called out. It is the point. Casting another group as fundamentally different from you necessitates that you are fundamentally different from them. Both the slave and the slave-holder, for example, are in a situation where they are "othered" from each other. The way to challenge this is not by tip-toeing around the truth, but by bringing about true equality by dismantling the white supremacist ideas which have created this division. 



the-pi-guy said:
KLAMarine said:

Let me make it simple:

If you object to the usage of the terms 'China virus' and regard it as partially to blame for black-on-Asian violence, I can object to the usage of the terms 'white supremacy' and blame it partially for black-on-white violence.

A few distinctions here

- white people make up the majority of the population, most of the politicians, most of the rich people are white.  

If you were in China, telling people that the 'China virus' is killing people, no one is going to get the idea that it's actually the fault of the Chinese individuals. Unless they have some weird issues, they're not going to start attacking their neighbors, or boycotting restaurants that happen to be run by Chinese people.

- White supremacy is advocated for, by and large by a subset of white people. 'China virus' isn't advocated in the same way.  If millions of Chinese people were advocating for the virus, then yeah, it'd be pretty fair to blame them. Last I checked, there aren't any Chinese versions of the KKK intentionally spreading coronavirus towards non-chinese people.

"white people make up the majority of the population, most of the politicians, most of the rich people are white."

Very true. A shame this does not immunize whites against injustices.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3bRtaKwaW8 (Medical Detectives (Forensic Files) - Season 9, Episode 26 - Fishing for the Truth)

"White supremacy is advocated for, by and large by a subset of white people. 'China virus' isn't advocated in the same way. If millions of Chinese people were advocating for the virus, then yeah, it'd be pretty fair to blame them. Last I checked, there aren't any Chinese versions of the KKK intentionally spreading coronavirus towards non-chinese people."

>Can you define 'white supremacy' for me here? Is the majority of our political leaders being white part of this so-called 'white supremacy'?

Last edited by KLAMarine - on 04 June 2021

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sundin13 said:
KLAMarine said:

"racial power has created a system of racial supremacy which favors some races over others."

A positive here is you no longer 'other' whites in the first sentence. I hope you agree!

And if we continue that thought for more than a single, vague sentence, you immediately have to confront how we are talking about white power and white supremacy. The only way to avoid that is by avoiding the conversation, and all that avoiding the conversation accomplishes is enabling white supremacy to continue unchallenged. 

And whites being othered is not an unintentional side effect of white supremacy, or something that only occurs when white supremacy is called out. It is the point. Casting another group as fundamentally different from you necessitates that you are fundamentally different from them. Both the slave and the slave-holder, for example, are in a situation where they are "othered" from each other. The way to challenge this is not by tip-toeing around the truth, but by bringing about true equality by dismantling the white supremacist ideas which have created this division. 

"And if we continue that thought for more than a single, vague sentence, you immediately have to confront how we are talking about white power and white supremacy. The only way to avoid that is by avoiding the conversation, and all that avoiding the conversation accomplishes is enabling white supremacy to continue unchallenged."

>I still disagree. Example: if I wanted to call out the fact that blacks are killed in disproportionate numbers by police compared to their white, Asian, and Hispanic counterparts, I need not make any mention of 'white supremacy' at any point.

Watch:

Blacks are killed in disproportionate numbers by police compared to their white, Asian, and Hispanic counterparts. We must put into place reforms to correct this injustice that hurts our black citizens! Better de-escalation tactics, education for both police and our citizenry on how to handle police stops and interactions! Inform as many as possible on their rights when it comes to interactions with law enforcement and how all are entitled to a lawyer when arrested!



KLAMarine said:
sundin13 said:

And if we continue that thought for more than a single, vague sentence, you immediately have to confront how we are talking about white power and white supremacy. The only way to avoid that is by avoiding the conversation, and all that avoiding the conversation accomplishes is enabling white supremacy to continue unchallenged. 

And whites being othered is not an unintentional side effect of white supremacy, or something that only occurs when white supremacy is called out. It is the point. Casting another group as fundamentally different from you necessitates that you are fundamentally different from them. Both the slave and the slave-holder, for example, are in a situation where they are "othered" from each other. The way to challenge this is not by tip-toeing around the truth, but by bringing about true equality by dismantling the white supremacist ideas which have created this division. 

"And if we continue that thought for more than a single, vague sentence, you immediately have to confront how we are talking about white power and white supremacy. The only way to avoid that is by avoiding the conversation, and all that avoiding the conversation accomplishes is enabling white supremacy to continue unchallenged."

>I still disagree. Example: if I wanted to call out the fact that blacks are killed in disproportionate numbers by police compared to their white, Asian, and Hispanic counterparts, I need not make any mention of 'white supremacy' at any point.

Watch:

Blacks are killed in disproportionate numbers by police compared to their white, Asian, and Hispanic counterparts. We must put into place reforms to correct this injustice that hurts our black citizens! Better de-escalation tactics, education for both police and our citizenry on how to handle police stops and interactions! Inform as many as possible on their rights when it comes to interactions with law enforcement and how all are entitled to a lawyer when arrested!

And by speaking about such things without really digging into the white supremacist history and ideas, you miss the fact that significant portions of our penal code have historically been created to criminalize minorities. Marijuana criminalization was created on the back of white supremacist nationalism, and the fear of Mexican immigrants. Further, it is largely through the white supremacist ideas of the dangerous black man that black men receive longer prison sentences for the same crime, and racial biases play a very important role in our jury based court system.

Hell, you miss the fact that actual White Supremacist organizations have worked to infiltrate local law enforcement agencies. A "classified FBI Counterterrorism Policy Guide from April 2015, obtained by The Intercept [...] notes that 'domestic terrorism investigations focused on militia extremists, white supremacist extremists, and sovereign citizen extremists often have identified active links to law enforcement officers'" (Source https://theintercept.com/2017/01/31/the-fbi-has-quietly-investigated-white-supremacist-infiltration-of-law-enforcement/ )

Sure, you can kind of tip-toe around some of the central components of the issue, asking for more training (which I support), but the problem is centuries deep and you are barely scratching the surface. 



sundin13 said:
KLAMarine said:

"And if we continue that thought for more than a single, vague sentence, you immediately have to confront how we are talking about white power and white supremacy. The only way to avoid that is by avoiding the conversation, and all that avoiding the conversation accomplishes is enabling white supremacy to continue unchallenged."

>I still disagree. Example: if I wanted to call out the fact that blacks are killed in disproportionate numbers by police compared to their white, Asian, and Hispanic counterparts, I need not make any mention of 'white supremacy' at any point.

Watch:

Blacks are killed in disproportionate numbers by police compared to their white, Asian, and Hispanic counterparts. We must put into place reforms to correct this injustice that hurts our black citizens! Better de-escalation tactics, education for both police and our citizenry on how to handle police stops and interactions! Inform as many as possible on their rights when it comes to interactions with law enforcement and how all are entitled to a lawyer when arrested!

And by speaking about such things without really digging into the white supremacist history and ideas, you miss the fact that significant portions of our penal code have historically been created to criminalize minorities. Marijuana criminalization was created on the back of white supremacist nationalism, and the fear of Mexican immigrants. Further, it is largely through the white supremacist ideas of the dangerous black man that black men receive longer prison sentences for the same crime, and racial biases play a very important role in our jury based court system.

Hell, you miss the fact that actual White Supremacist organizations have worked to infiltrate local law enforcement agencies. A "classified FBI Counterterrorism Policy Guide from April 2015, obtained by The Intercept [...] notes that 'domestic terrorism investigations focused on militia extremists, white supremacist extremists, and sovereign citizen extremists often have identified active links to law enforcement officers'" (Source https://theintercept.com/2017/01/31/the-fbi-has-quietly-investigated-white-supremacist-infiltration-of-law-enforcement/ )

Sure, you can kind of tip-toe around some of the central components of the issue, asking for more training (which I support), but the problem is centuries deep and you are barely scratching the surface. 

sundin13, I have excellent news for you: I'm all for rooting any corrupt elements in our judicial, executive, and legislative branches of government. Tread carefully however lest you end up doing more harm than good.

So, where shall we start? Got any police officers or judges you'd like to put on blast right now for their erroneous or biased work?



KLAMarine said:
sundin13 said:

And by speaking about such things without really digging into the white supremacist history and ideas, you miss the fact that significant portions of our penal code have historically been created to criminalize minorities. Marijuana criminalization was created on the back of white supremacist nationalism, and the fear of Mexican immigrants. Further, it is largely through the white supremacist ideas of the dangerous black man that black men receive longer prison sentences for the same crime, and racial biases play a very important role in our jury based court system.

Hell, you miss the fact that actual White Supremacist organizations have worked to infiltrate local law enforcement agencies. A "classified FBI Counterterrorism Policy Guide from April 2015, obtained by The Intercept [...] notes that 'domestic terrorism investigations focused on militia extremists, white supremacist extremists, and sovereign citizen extremists often have identified active links to law enforcement officers'" (Source https://theintercept.com/2017/01/31/the-fbi-has-quietly-investigated-white-supremacist-infiltration-of-law-enforcement/ )

Sure, you can kind of tip-toe around some of the central components of the issue, asking for more training (which I support), but the problem is centuries deep and you are barely scratching the surface. 

sundin13, I have excellent news for you: I'm all for rooting any corrupt elements in our judicial, executive, and legislative branches of government. Tread carefully however lest you end up doing more harm than good.

So, where shall we start? Got any police officers or judges you'd like to put on blast right now for their erroneous or biased work?

The idea is more insidious than the individual, and these ideas will continue to bear fruit unless we are able to grasp at the root to remove them. To that end, I believe education on racial injustice plays a fundamental role.



sundin13 said:
KLAMarine said:

sundin13, I have excellent news for you: I'm all for rooting any corrupt elements in our judicial, executive, and legislative branches of government. Tread carefully however lest you end up doing more harm than good.

So, where shall we start? Got any police officers or judges you'd like to put on blast right now for their erroneous or biased work?

The idea is more insidious than the individual, and these ideas will continue to bear fruit unless we are able to grasp at the root to remove them. To that end, I believe education on racial injustice plays a fundamental role.

Okay, let's get educated! Tell me about this 'racial injustice'.