By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - Trump Tests Positive for Coronavirus

SanAndreasX said:
Hiku said:

It's not that anything goes against public figures, but there's more leeway there. We draw the line closer when it's attacks on members that they can read.

We have to take a middle road here: If Trump is responsible, are the state governors not also responsible? Are the local governments not also responsible? 
No he hasn't handled this pandemic perfectly, but if we blame him for everything wrong, then we should also praise him for everything good that has happened in the last 4 years. It's just not reasonable. 

Of course, local government are also responsible.
When it comes to Trump, I don't think people are blaming him for everything wrong. Only the things he lied about, the information he withheld (see Woodward's report), the misinformation he spread, anti-mask rhetoric, cutting down/disbanding pandemic prevention/response programs in 2018 and 2019, etc.

And when it comes to the subject of death it can be hard to find positive comparisons.

Even when local government did act, Trump's administration did everything they could to undermine the efforts of local government when he didn't agree with them, i.e. when he saw a threat to the economy that could bite him in the butt in November. 

Ultimately a pandemic is a national crisis that demands a national response. Not a bunch of piecemeal responses interspersed with indifference. The virus doesn't care about state or county lines. Trump should have been front and center. Instead, he wanted to play both sides against the middle for his own gain.

In the United States, the buck stops at the President's desk. Or at least it used to. This president has been incompetent and useless at best, and outright malicious at worst. The ultimate responsibility for this mess belongs to him. He has failed.

Keeping Americans in Benghazi safe was Hillary Clinton's job. When Americans died they rightfully investigated to see if she could have done things differently and to what extent it was her fault. And while they probably over investigated, it was 100% correct to assess whether she was accountable. 

All I ask is that the same standards be applied to Donald Trump. Once this is over, whether or not his actions endangered American lives should be investigated with the same level of scrutiny. If it is found that his actions did lead to American deaths that could have been avoided, he should be accountable. I'd say, treason charges would be appropriate, but I'm not a legal expert.



Around the Network
JWeinCom said:
SanAndreasX said:

Even when local government did act, Trump's administration did everything they could to undermine the efforts of local government when he didn't agree with them, i.e. when he saw a threat to the economy that could bite him in the butt in November. 

Ultimately a pandemic is a national crisis that demands a national response. Not a bunch of piecemeal responses interspersed with indifference. The virus doesn't care about state or county lines. Trump should have been front and center. Instead, he wanted to play both sides against the middle for his own gain.

In the United States, the buck stops at the President's desk. Or at least it used to. This president has been incompetent and useless at best, and outright malicious at worst. The ultimate responsibility for this mess belongs to him. He has failed.

Keeping Americans in Benghazi safe was Hillary Clinton's job. When Americans died they rightfully investigated to see if she could have done things differently and to what extent it was her fault. And while they probably over investigated, it was 100% correct to assess whether she was accountable. 

All I ask is that the same standards be applied to Donald Trump. Once this is over, whether or not his actions endangered American lives should be investigated with the same level of scrutiny. If it is found that his actions did lead to American deaths that could have been avoided, he should be accountable. I'd say, treason charges would be appropriate, but I'm not a legal expert.

If an investigation determined that his actions caused hundreds of thousands of American deaths, that would be an impeachable offense. Getting 67 Senators to vote to convict, however, would be next to impossible unless an awful lot of Senate Republicans grew a backbone and a conscience.



SanAndreasX said:
JWeinCom said:

Keeping Americans in Benghazi safe was Hillary Clinton's job. When Americans died they rightfully investigated to see if she could have done things differently and to what extent it was her fault. And while they probably over investigated, it was 100% correct to assess whether she was accountable. 

All I ask is that the same standards be applied to Donald Trump. Once this is over, whether or not his actions endangered American lives should be investigated with the same level of scrutiny. If it is found that his actions did lead to American deaths that could have been avoided, he should be accountable. I'd say, treason charges would be appropriate, but I'm not a legal expert.

If an investigation determined that his actions caused hundreds of thousands of American deaths, that would be an impeachable offense. Getting 67 Senators to vote to convict, however, would be next to impossible unless an awful lot of Senate Republicans grew a backbone and a conscience.

I'm of the opinion that Trump will not be president for much longer. When I talk about charges, I'm not talking about impeachment, I'm talking about criminal charges and civil liability. There may be some immunity that would protect him. Usually there is when it's related to presidential actions, but I'm pretty sure you have to show a rational basis for your actions (which is a really lenient standard), but I don't think it would be impossible to press charges.

CaptainExplosion said:
JWeinCom said:

Taxpayer funded too.

Now he's infecting more people by doing an SUV drive by for his followers, who will have to be quarantined for 14 days, and some of them will very likely get the virus too.

They're just pawns for a heartless tyrant who's willing to kill his own people.

I have only slightly more sympathy for them than I do for him. Honestly, if this wasn't highly infectious, I'd just give them all Darwin awards and not give them another thought. Unfortunately, they may, and probably will, spread it to others who are not doing anything to court illness.



JWeinCom said:
SanAndreasX said:

If an investigation determined that his actions caused hundreds of thousands of American deaths, that would be an impeachable offense. Getting 67 Senators to vote to convict, however, would be next to impossible unless an awful lot of Senate Republicans grew a backbone and a conscience.

I'm of the opinion that Trump will not be president for much longer. When I talk about charges, I'm not talking about impeachment, I'm talking about criminal charges and civil liability. There may be some immunity that would protect him. Usually there is when it's related to presidential actions, but I'm pretty sure you have to show a rational basis for your actions (which is a really lenient standard), but I don't think it would be impossible to press charges.

It wouldn't be impossible to press charges, but it would be a hell of a legal fight. And if Trump leaves office before January 20th, regardless of the election outcome, Pence becomes the acting President at least until then, and his first action as President will be to pardon Trump, which is what Ford did for Nixon when he became President.  Nixon would almost certainly have been convicted of obstruction of justice had Ford not done pardoned him, and most likely other actors associated with Nixon and Watergate, like Robert Bork, would have also been indicted. It's also interesting to note that the acceptance of a pardon is an admission of guilt under US law.



SanAndreasX said:
JWeinCom said:

I'm of the opinion that Trump will not be president for much longer. When I talk about charges, I'm not talking about impeachment, I'm talking about criminal charges and civil liability. There may be some immunity that would protect him. Usually there is when it's related to presidential actions, but I'm pretty sure you have to show a rational basis for your actions (which is a really lenient standard), but I don't think it would be impossible to press charges.

It wouldn't be impossible to press charges, but it would be a hell of a legal fight. And if Trump leaves office before January 20th, regardless of the election outcome, Pence becomes the acting President at least until then, and his first action as President will be to pardon Trump, which is what Ford did for Nixon when he became President.  Nixon would almost certainly have been convicted of obstruction of justice had Ford not done pardoned him, and most likely other actors associated with Nixon and Watergate, like Robert Bork, would have also been indicted. It's also interesting to note that the acceptance of a pardon is an admission of guilt under US law.

I don't think Trump will leave before the 20th, and probably not after. I'm also not sure Pence would pardon him or that he could. I don't think that would be a good look for the Republican party. But maybe he'd be loyal enough. I gotta say, Trump seems like the kind of guy that is tolerated while he's in power. If the election is lost, Pence is probably going down with the ship and may not be apt to help him.

You can apply a pardon for a presumptive case, but it might depend on how likely a charges are to occur. More importantly though, a president can only pardon for federal crimes. If someone were to say bring a charge of negligent manslaughter in New Jersey, that would be a state crime.

CaptainExplosion said:
JWeinCom said:

I'm of the opinion that Trump will not be president for much longer. When I talk about charges, I'm not talking about impeachment, I'm talking about criminal charges and civil liability. There may be some immunity that would protect him. Usually there is when it's related to presidential actions, but I'm pretty sure you have to show a rational basis for your actions (which is a really lenient standard), but I don't think it would be impossible to press charges.

I have only slightly more sympathy for them than I do for him. Honestly, if this wasn't highly infectious, I'd just give them all Darwin awards and not give them another thought. Unfortunately, they may, and probably will, spread it to others who are not doing anything to court illness.

And because of these amoral idiots it feels like we'll never be rid of COVID-19, and we're headed further to the apocalypse. -_-



Around the Network
JWeinCom said:
SanAndreasX said:

It wouldn't be impossible to press charges, but it would be a hell of a legal fight. And if Trump leaves office before January 20th, regardless of the election outcome, Pence becomes the acting President at least until then, and his first action as President will be to pardon Trump, which is what Ford did for Nixon when he became President.  Nixon would almost certainly have been convicted of obstruction of justice had Ford not done pardoned him, and most likely other actors associated with Nixon and Watergate, like Robert Bork, would have also been indicted. It's also interesting to note that the acceptance of a pardon is an admission of guilt under US law.

I don't think Trump will leave before the 20th, and probably not after. I'm also not sure Pence would pardon him or that he could. I don't think that would be a good look for the Republican party. But maybe he'd be loyal enough. I gotta say, Trump seems like the kind of guy that is tolerated while he's in power. If the election is lost, Pence is probably going down with the ship and may not be apt to help him.

You can apply a pardon for a presumptive case, but it might depend on how likely a charges are to occur. More importantly though, a president can only pardon for federal crimes. If someone were to say bring a charge of negligent manslaughter in New Jersey, that would be a state crime.

Pence would probably pardon him under the excuse that hauling a president of contested popularity into court would create civil unrest. Nixon was still popular among conservatives when he resigned, and Ford thought the country wouldn't hold together too well with the added stress of watching a former president go to trial in federal court. And Trump's base would eat it up.

That said, with regards to your second point, prosecutors in the state of New York would no doubt like to get their claws into Trump. He likely is looking at some heavy charges in New York. But Trump would actually have to be in New York before they could arrest or try him there. Trump would flee to Florida the first chance he got, and I can see DeSantis refusing to extradite him to New York out of pure spite, selling his refusal to Floridians and other conservatives around the country as standing up to the tyranny of an out of control blue state,  and to return favors bestowed upon Florida by Trump (i.e. Trump protecting Florida from offshore drilling while doing everything he can to force his hated California to open its territory to drilling). 



Maybe he can pay his doctor to make another glowing review.



SanAndreasX said:
JWeinCom said:

I don't think Trump will leave before the 20th, and probably not after. I'm also not sure Pence would pardon him or that he could. I don't think that would be a good look for the Republican party. But maybe he'd be loyal enough. I gotta say, Trump seems like the kind of guy that is tolerated while he's in power. If the election is lost, Pence is probably going down with the ship and may not be apt to help him.

You can apply a pardon for a presumptive case, but it might depend on how likely a charges are to occur. More importantly though, a president can only pardon for federal crimes. If someone were to say bring a charge of negligent manslaughter in New Jersey, that would be a state crime.

Pence would probably pardon him under the excuse that hauling a president of contested popularity into court would create civil unrest. Nixon was still popular among conservatives when he resigned, and Ford thought the country wouldn't hold together too well with the added stress of watching a former president go to trial in federal court. And Trump's base would eat it up.

That said, with regards to your second point, prosecutors in the state of New York would no doubt like to get their claws into Trump. He likely is looking at some heavy charges in New York. But Trump would actually have to be in New York before they could arrest or try him there. Trump would flee to Florida the first chance he got, and I can see DeSantis refusing to extradite him to New York out of pure spite, selling his refusal to Floridians and other conservatives around the country as standing up to the tyranny of an out of control blue state,  and to return favors bestowed upon Florida by Trump (i.e. Trump protecting Florida from offshore drilling while doing everything he can to force his hated California to open its territory to drilling). 

Trump is popular among conservatives, but I think depending on the situation, the republicans might want to change that. Trump went hard to the far right. If Trump loses in a landslide, which doesn't look that unlikely, they will need to pivot back to the center. In that case Trump might be used as a scapegoat. I personally think that if the election goes badly, Trump will become a scapegoat for the whole party. Also, resigning solely for the purpose of getting a pardon is a bit different than Nixon. I'm not sure how that'd go constitutionally. There's also no clear precedent that Trump can't pardon himself. A literalist interpretation of the constitution would imply that he can do so. 

Whether or not Trump would actually agree to this, is questionable. He tends to think himself invincible till it's too late. See Covid.

As for suing him in NY, they'd probably be able to exercise jurisdiction. Trump's going to have to come to NY at some point to deal with some of the other actions and do some other stuff. We're getting pretty theoretical here, but that's an interesting scenario. 

Also, Team Edlegard forver.



JWeinCom said:
Shinobi-san said:

I often find myself with very similar opinions to this and strangely enough also met with often hostile responses. I'd just say that you are not alone.

For me, what you are saying resonates and I 100% agree.

Just thought id put it out there.

I am also in no way a Trump supporter, but some of the reactions to him and more importantly his fans is quite sickening. People seem to be under this false narrative that they can fight Trump by hating him. It didn't work out well the last time and it probably wont work out well this time either. Dude is most likely going to president again because of that hatred mentality. I find that ignorance a bit disappointing and ultimately a bit sad especially as someone that identifies as "leftist" or whatever that is these days.

If people are going to vote for Trump just because other people hate him, then they are voting for really irrational reasons, and there's probably not much that could have been done to reach them in any event.

Same as the people who say they're voting for Biden solely because they hate Trump and want him out. That's just as irrational. Like you said though, there's not much you can do for anyone who operates this way.



EricHiggin said:
JWeinCom said:

If people are going to vote for Trump just because other people hate him, then they are voting for really irrational reasons, and there's probably not much that could have been done to reach them in any event.

Same as the people who say they're voting for Biden solely because they hate Trump and want him out. That's just as irrational. Like you said though, there's not much you can do for anyone who operates this way.

No, it's not the same at all.

On the one hand you're voting for the alternative because you hate a candidate and presumably hate the other less.

On the other hand, you're voting for a candidate because other people hate him, regardless of what you actually think about either candidate.

The first situation is like being at a table with 10 people and being offered a Dr. Pepper or a Sprite. You're dying of thirst and have to drink one. You hate Dr. Pepper, and don't hate Sprite as much, so you choose Sprite.

The second situation is like being at a table with 10 people and being offered a Dr. Pepper or a Sprite. You're dying of thirst and have to drink one. The other 9 people at the table all start yelling about how Dr. Pepper is the most disgusting beverage ever. Because of that you drink the Dr. Pepper regardless of which drink you actually think is better.

The first is rational, the second is not.

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 05 October 2020