Forums - Politics Discussion - What's your definition of a political moderate?

How do you define a political moderate?

Someone who favors only modest changes. 5 20.83%
 
Someone who holds a comb... 19 79.17%
 
Total:24
snyps said:
sundin13 said:

Things change.

In the 80s and 90s, the prevailing school of thought was that being "tough on crime" would solve our crime problems. We have since come to understand that this is not the best way forward. As such, Biden has updated his platform to represent modern thinking, while Trump has not. The past is not the future and if you look at the difference between Biden's platform and Trump's platform regarding criminal justice and racial justice, the choice should be clear.

Politicians lie for votes. You and everyone knows this. A person will say what ever is popular. But a person’s actions won’t change as much. If you want to get roped in by a speech and a commercial, fine. But records don’t lie. 

Actions do change though. Biden in particular has shown himself to be someone who serves as a barometer for the party. If the party moves to the left, he will move with it. I see no reason to assume that Biden will suddenly start pushing Trump-like policies, when, if he does, his own party will eviscerate him. The power of voters does not end at election day, unless we let it.

sales2099 said:
sundin13 said:

Things change.

In the 80s and 90s, the prevailing school of thought was that being "tough on crime" would solve our crime problems. We have since come to understand that this is not the best way forward. As such, Biden has updated his platform to represent modern thinking, while Trump has not. The past is not the future and if you look at the difference between Biden's platform and Trump's platform regarding criminal justice and racial justice, the choice should be clear.

Crime has since skyrocketed in dem states following the initial BLM protests and subsequent police cuts. The “soft on crime” approach is equally fallible in that it creates a revolving door of people in and out of the crim justice system. Also makes it ripe for abuse. 

Not sure if you've noticed, but there is a pandemic going on which has put millions of people out of work.

Also, in most places, funding cuts have not yet been put into place...

Additionally, the opposite of "tough on crime" is not "soft on crime". It is "smart on crime". At the present, going to jail increases your likelihood of committing another crime. That is not a sign that our "tough on crime" policies are working, it is a sign that we need change.



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Political moderate is someone who doesn't align themself with a specific party and judges topics on a case by case basis. That's much more common in real democracies than in the USA's version of democracy, because picking a side becomes a lot more complex when you are dealing with four to six relevant political parties, plus the lack of a binary also means much less push towards a specific side.



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sundin13 said:
snyps said:

Politicians lie for votes. You and everyone knows this. A person will say what ever is popular. But a person’s actions won’t change as much. If you want to get roped in by a speech and a commercial, fine. But records don’t lie. 

Actions do change though. Biden in particular has shown himself to be someone who serves as a barometer for the party. If the party moves to the left, he will move with it. I see no reason to assume that Biden will suddenly start pushing Trump-like policies, when, if he does, his own party will eviscerate him. The power of voters does not end at election day, unless we let it.

sales2099 said:

Crime has since skyrocketed in dem states following the initial BLM protests and subsequent police cuts. The “soft on crime” approach is equally fallible in that it creates a revolving door of people in and out of the crim justice system. Also makes it ripe for abuse. 

Not sure if you've noticed, but there is a pandemic going on which has put millions of people out of work.

Also, in most places, funding cuts have not yet been put into place...

Additionally, the opposite of "tough on crime" is not "soft on crime". It is "smart on crime". At the present, going to jail increases your likelihood of committing another crime. That is not a sign that our "tough on crime" policies are working, it is a sign that we need change.

I agree with you except I see no record of evidence showing Biden (or the party) is being smart on crime. Yeah we all have are versions of smart, but when it’s so clear that Americans are filling up jails with victimless crimes like drugs/prostitution, and gangsters own a huge unregulated black market, the federal policies are dangerous. 



RolStoppable said:
Political moderate is someone who doesn't align themself with a specific party and judges topics on a case by case basis. That's much more common in real democracies than in the USA's version of democracy, because picking a side becomes a lot more complex when you are dealing with four to six relevant political parties, plus the lack of a binary also means much less push towards a specific side.

I was looking at some survey data yesterday and noticed that the survey listed four optional self-descriptions instead of the usual three: progressive, liberal, moderate, and conservative. I thought it interesting, and appropriate, that 'progressive' and 'liberal' were listed as separate options. I think that's how such queries should be worded because I sense a distinction between the two things. Anyway, the ideological composition of Americans looked like this in the survey:

33% identified as conservatives
31% as moderates
19% as progressives
18% as liberals

Conservative is the most common label Americans identify themselves with, but you'll notice that progressives and liberals combined outnumber them (a combined 37% versus 33%). The party identification part of the same survey also implies that there are more liberals and progressives than there are Democrats and more conservatives than there are Republicans; facts suggesting that not all independents are actually moderates by any stretch of the imagination. That's the point I was getting to with all this, sorry.

Also, I'm actually a card-carrying Democrat myself. It's mostly just my way of being defiant in the face of my state's, and even more especially my particular community's, heavily Republican lean. I have the "TEXAS DEMOCRAT" and "RED STATE DEMOCRAT" bumper stickers on my car to piss people off. I also really liked our last Democratic governor, Ann Richards, for the Robin Hood school funding system she implemented in particular during her one term before being defeated by George W. Bush back in 1994. My school benefited directly from the equitable redistribution of school funds across the state and underwent a very noticeable year-on-year refurbishing and improvement. We haven't had another Democratic governor (or another female governor) since. She was also just a really quirky character of the sort you might suspect I'd like. However, according to this survey's party ID categorizations, I think the most accurate term for me therein would be "weak Democrat", as in am open to voting for Republicans in the future under the right circumstances. (Said circumstances, however, cannot include Donald Trump.) I can think of at least one Republican who has often been named as a prospective candidate for president in 2024 who I might be open to voting for depending on how a hypothetical Joe Biden presidency goes.

But the "judges topics on a case by case basis" part I agree with. That I think is important to qualifying as a moderate and applies to me as well. I just don't think that you have to be independent of political parties per se.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 15 August 2020

snyps said:
sundin13 said:

Actions do change though. Biden in particular has shown himself to be someone who serves as a barometer for the party. If the party moves to the left, he will move with it. I see no reason to assume that Biden will suddenly start pushing Trump-like policies, when, if he does, his own party will eviscerate him. The power of voters does not end at election day, unless we let it.

Not sure if you've noticed, but there is a pandemic going on which has put millions of people out of work.

Also, in most places, funding cuts have not yet been put into place...

Additionally, the opposite of "tough on crime" is not "soft on crime". It is "smart on crime". At the present, going to jail increases your likelihood of committing another crime. That is not a sign that our "tough on crime" policies are working, it is a sign that we need change.

I agree with you except I see no record of evidence showing Biden (or the party) is being smart on crime. Yeah we all have are versions of smart, but when it’s so clear that Americans are filling up jails with victimless crimes like drugs/prostitution, and gangsters own a huge unregulated black market, the federal policies are dangerous. 

https://joebiden.com/justice/



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sundin13 said:
snyps said:

I agree with you except I see no record of evidence showing Biden (or the party) is being smart on crime. Yeah we all have are versions of smart, but when it’s so clear that Americans are filling up jails with victimless crimes like drugs/prostitution, and gangsters own a huge unregulated black market, the federal policies are dangerous. 

https://joebiden.com/justice/

A speech or a commercial is not a record of evidence. He’s a politician. Obama said he’d close quantanamo bay, end the Mid East war, and tie the minimum wage to inflation. Campaign promises are not a predictor. 



Really depends what region you're in. I'm what they call a Christian-Democrat in Belgium. Personally that means holding slightly left leaning economic views (not across the whole line) and slightly conservative social views (again depending on the particular issue). But one could call others in socialist, green, liberal and nationalist parties moderate (depending on who it is, but generally parties here have slight to significant internal gradients in their views).
Even in a region moderates might have a breath of views, and universally, as a moderate you'll always have to explain your views since they will usually be a particular blend of nuanced opinions.
Being a moderate on the internet is difficult because expressing nuance is inherently difficult on the internet. But a good centrist realizes the person yelling at him for his views might turn out be quite agreeable when going out for a drink in person :)



snyps said:
sundin13 said:

https://joebiden.com/justice/

A speech or a commercial is not a record of evidence. He’s a politician. Obama said he’d close quantanamo bay, end the Mid East war, and tie the minimum wage to inflation. Campaign promises are not a predictor. 

They are evidence of intent. Success is a different question entirely, which is largely predicated on Congress. Remember, only Congress can introduce legislation. Sanders ran on the back of Medicare for All, but the odds of that actually getting passed even if he became president would have been very low. I don't know if Biden will be successful in his goals regarding criminal justice, as I don't know what Congress will look like next year, but a crime bill from the 80s does virtually nothing to predict what his stance will be when he becomes president. Any politician who has been on the job for more than a few years will have seen their positions shift over time. That is simply how both humans and politics work.



A moderate is someone who can believe in radical changes or radical views, but will not choose to follow them if they have a choice because they understand sometimes change need to be done step by step and mitigating damages, interests and conflicts is more important than following an idealistic agenda

For me they don't even need to agree with the "other" side, but will cooperate with them, understand their points and their demands and adjust their own actions while still disagreeing with them



sundin13 said:
snyps said:

A speech or a commercial is not a record of evidence. He’s a politician. Obama said he’d close quantanamo bay, end the Mid East war, and tie the minimum wage to inflation. Campaign promises are not a predictor. 

They are evidence of intent. Success is a different question entirely, which is largely predicated on Congress. Remember, only Congress can introduce legislation. Sanders ran on the back of Medicare for All, but the odds of that actually getting passed even if he became president would have been very low. I don't know if Biden will be successful in his goals regarding criminal justice, as I don't know what Congress will look like next year, but a crime bill from the 80s does virtually nothing to predict what his stance will be when he becomes president. Any politician who has been on the job for more than a few years will have seen their positions shift over time. That is simply how both humans and politics work.

All I’m saying is records don’t lie, politicians do. There’s no reason to believe a liar has changed. They will say what is popular. If you want more recent records, look at Biden’s VP pick. Harris, a state prosecutor of all things, opposed legalization of marijuana in her state. She co-authored an opposition letter to stop it’s passage, and was successful. 2016 it finally passed without her endorsement. Records show, in her 5 years, Harris sent 1,500 people to state prison (not just jail) for MariJuana related offenses and increased drug dealer convictions from 50% to 75%. Now she created the MORE act. Which I have to read still, but it could be a step in the right direction. 

when I see a police turn it’s lights on I don’t think, “oh good, they caught a bad guy.” Instead I think, “Oh those poor people are being extorted for money.”