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Forums - Sony Discussion - Sony Representative Contacted Vice After Critical Review of The Last of Us 2

KratosLives said:
Bonzinga said:

Interesting, so if you dont like a game, you need to be educated in liking it?

The justifications used to not like the game are terrible. And they pretty much all come from a common background.  

What if someone doesn't like apocalypse type games, third person, or anything dealing with this genre.  Not everyone likes the same genres or game settings.  I'm sure you don't like most of my favorite games.



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I think I'm getting a bit dizzy reading some of the comments on this thread. It... It can't be. There's no way people can just willingly not only acknowledge this, but think it's something good.

I can't believe how far people are willing to go in order to defend a stupid videogame and a developer that constantly abuses their employees. Absolutely insane.



The problem with this whole thread is that some people seem to have decided that Sony contacted reviewers with either threats or bribes. But, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of that at all. Simply calling reviewers and asking them things or advocating for the company's position is not in any way dishonest or morally wrong. It's what you're supposed to do to run a good business. And, we don't know that Sony did anything more than that.

If people are going to jump to the conclusion that Sony is doing something wrong just because they reached out to critics, there's really no way to have a conversation about this. People are just deciding that something bad happened with no evidence of it at all.

Last edited by VAMatt - on 02 July 2020

Any real evidence?



 

My youtube gaming page.

http://www.youtube.com/user/klaudkil

padib said:
Fei-Hung said:
Not wanting to make this about ND or simply just the games industry. I think some reviewers, journalists, media, critics are to blame for this as well as some publishers, developers.

As a Muslim and a minority I have faced this for over twenty years. Someone decides to review / analyse you as a group, as a community, as a race, but they pick and choose the points they will analyse and this often leads to a one sided review.

It's like with the recent BLM movements where people protested, but the stories which many outlets chose to highlight were the looting.

Or when speaking about immigrants, you only concentrate on those who have committed crimes, but ignore all the others who have made a positive impact through their contributions. E.g Steve jobs, freddy Mercury, the doctors, nurses etc. All this is simply boiled down to immigrants are this or that.

It's like GTAIV or any GTA for that matter where the outlets choose to only review and analyse the positives whilst in other games they will choose to analyse all and compare.

If a journalist only highlights the negative, ignores the positive or chooses not to speak about them, they become part of the problem, so when they do get questioned, it's only right.

Class example is the Killzone series. First big console game with mechs, jetpacks, dynamic mp maps, dynamic missions in mp, shooting from cover in a fps but most of these things were ignored by most outlets and then the credit given to games which followed like Brink, TF and Battlefield.

If I was to be considered a fair and professional reviewer and I chose to omit things that could be / are actually good and positive, then I shouldn't be surprised for being called out unless I state why I don't like these things so they're is reasoning beyond just meh it's rubbish or not covering them at all.

This ultimately to me is what separates a good critical opinion from a lazy / biased one. It is something that has plagued this industry for a long time, especially with big games and franchises, often leaving lesser known games and developers on the receiving end.

It's important that you read the polygon article mentioned in the video, and look at DCG's actual review of TLOU2, it's one of the best out there, and I've watched a few. It highlights the points where the game shines, but points out the single glaring flaw. If you understand that flaw, it  will help ND evolve. I'll let you watch it. https://youtu.be/Oc7iWZqyWQ4

In the Polygon article,  Rob Zacny from Vice mentions a nuanced opinion, not a one-sided view. Your post is very well written and often true, but unfortunately it's misinformed on the topic at hand and ultimately not true in this case. Here is the excerpt that matters:

"The vibe around the game hasn’t gotten much better since then. On June 12, Vice published its review of The Last of Us Part 2, in which critic Rob Zacny said that while the game had “memorable moments” that made for great “spectacle,” he was less taken with the story and characters. “Nobody ever reconsiders their quest for vengeance,” Zacny wrote. “Everyone acts under a kind of vindictive compulsion that goes little remarked and unexamined.” Zacny went on to describe the game’s message as complacent, full of “oppressive bleakness and violence.”"

So, underlined is positive, bold is negative, in other words: nuanced. You will notice that DCG's review mentioned the same problem, so perhaps it's not a gangup. Perhaps there's a real problem in the way the game's overall narrative is constructed that made gamers feel forced to do bad things without the characters being questioned about it, without having any valid reason for doing it. Just maybe?

I'm not disagreeing with the story and characters, my response was a general response about developers, publishers and critics. I have a whole bunch of issues with the characters and story with Tlou2. I don't think they organically created the story and evolved the characters as much as push the story through a theme and therefor force characters to behave in ways they wouldn't have. 



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KratosLives said:
Bonzinga said:

Interesting, so if you dont like a game, you need to be educated in liking it?

The justifications used to not like the game are terrible. And they pretty much all come from a common background.  

Do NOT go there.



Well reviewers were not allowed to talk about certain parts you may expect some backlslash.






sales2099 said:
DonFerrari said:

Are you sure you are really a republican? Do you want a regulatory body for this? Isn't the classification enough already?

Would you have hard evidence that he was fired for that?

Conservatives can’t support regulation? News to me, that’s politically neutral and something both sides can agree with.

He actually spoke out on it and admitted it when his own site Giant Bomb was purchased by the same parent company that owns Gamespot. It’s still very much the Wild West in gaming as shady dealings are the norm and rarely exposed to end users like us. 

Conservatives don't support increase in government expenditures, and creating a new regulation agency and for something as frivolous as gaming, and worse yet one that could be used to censor content is something that no conservative should really support.

If he admitted then ok I won't ask for source and will accept you seeing the info.

The_Liquid_Laser said:
DonFerrari said:

Until this gen Gran Turismo have been their best selling franchise, and GT5, 6 and GTS had decreasing scores.

Days Gone was a big bet.

You are just spreading FUD with this.

You are saying things that are just not true.  The Naughty Dog games were the best selling 1st party games on the PS3.  GT experienced a significant decline at the same time.  Naughty Dog has been their flagship studio for the past two generations.

Also, I'm not the first person to suggest that the rating system is biased and unreliable, not even close.  I'm just pointing out the details in this specific incident.

Accusing me of lying because you didn't do your investigation?

Gran Turismo 1 to 5 sold more than any game ND had made until that time. ND only started selling more than PD when we look at GT6 and GTS versus TLOU and UC4.

Nobody doubts metacritic is flawed, but your suggestion is on the realm of conspiracy theory.

shikamaru317 said:
DonFerrari said:

Are you sure you are really a republican? Do you want a regulatory body for this? Isn't the classification enough already?

Would you have hard evidence that he was fired for that?

I think you're thinking of Libertarians rather than Republicans. It's Libertarians who are strongly opposed to all forms of government regulation. While many Republicans are Libertarians, not all of them are. Some Republicans are ok with government regulation of certain things. 

Nope not confusing. Increase of government expending and size for something frivolous as regulating videogames isn't something republicans would ought to do. What would be next? And agency to specifically regulate parfums and ensure they smell just as they claim? Agency to regulate banners to ensure all information on them is easily recognizeable?

We already have the classification board and independent private ways to evaluate games (like metacritic and reviewers), we have customer protection law and several other means to cover it without the need of another agency just for gaming.

The_Liquid_Laser said:
kazuyamishima said:

But Naughty Dog games are not the best selling PS3 games, GT5 Is.

And at this rate maybe Spider-Man is the best selling PS4 game and not a Naughty Dog game (U4).

My mistake.  I took a second look at GT numbers.  However, Naughty Dog was still basically their flagship studio on the PS3 since they had several high sellers.  The same can be said for PS4.

No it isn't, it became at the end of PS3 not for the whole gen.

sethnintendo said:
KratosLives said:

The justifications used to not like the game are terrible. And they pretty much all come from a common background.  

What if someone doesn't like apocalypse type games, third person, or anything dealing with this genre.  Not everyone likes the same genres or game settings.  I'm sure you don't like most of my favorite games.

A reviewer shouldn't do it based on his personal taste. So if he can't separate his taste from the objectivity he isn't a professional and either shouldn't review at all or shouldn't review the games on genres or settings he doesn't like.

padib said:
Fei-Hung said:
Not wanting to make this about ND or simply just the games industry. I think some reviewers, journalists, media, critics are to blame for this as well as some publishers, developers.

As a Muslim and a minority I have faced this for over twenty years. Someone decides to review / analyse you as a group, as a community, as a race, but they pick and choose the points they will analyse and this often leads to a one sided review.

It's like with the recent BLM movements where people protested, but the stories which many outlets chose to highlight were the looting.

Or when speaking about immigrants, you only concentrate on those who have committed crimes, but ignore all the others who have made a positive impact through their contributions. E.g Steve jobs, freddy Mercury, the doctors, nurses etc. All this is simply boiled down to immigrants are this or that.

It's like GTAIV or any GTA for that matter where the outlets choose to only review and analyse the positives whilst in other games they will choose to analyse all and compare.

If a journalist only highlights the negative, ignores the positive or chooses not to speak about them, they become part of the problem, so when they do get questioned, it's only right.

Class example is the Killzone series. First big console game with mechs, jetpacks, dynamic mp maps, dynamic missions in mp, shooting from cover in a fps but most of these things were ignored by most outlets and then the credit given to games which followed like Brink, TF and Battlefield.

If I was to be considered a fair and professional reviewer and I chose to omit things that could be / are actually good and positive, then I shouldn't be surprised for being called out unless I state why I don't like these things so they're is reasoning beyond just meh it's rubbish or not covering them at all.

This ultimately to me is what separates a good critical opinion from a lazy / biased one. It is something that has plagued this industry for a long time, especially with big games and franchises, often leaving lesser known games and developers on the receiving end.

It's important that you read the polygon article mentioned in the video, and look at DCG's actual review of TLOU2, it's one of the best out there, and I've watched a few. It highlights the points where the game shines, but points out the single glaring flaw. If you understand that flaw, it  will help ND evolve. I'll let you watch it. https://youtu.be/Oc7iWZqyWQ4

In the Polygon article,  Rob Zacny from Vice mentions a nuanced opinion, not a one-sided view. Your post is very well written and often true, but unfortunately it's misinformed on the topic at hand and ultimately not true in this case. Here is the excerpt that matters:

"The vibe around the game hasn’t gotten much better since then. On June 12, Vice published its review of The Last of Us Part 2, in which critic Rob Zacny said that while the game had “memorable moments” that made for great “spectacle,” he was less taken with the story and characters. “Nobody ever reconsiders their quest for vengeance,” Zacny wrote. “Everyone acts under a kind of vindictive compulsion that goes little remarked and unexamined.” Zacny went on to describe the game’s message as complacent, full of “oppressive bleakness and violence.”"

So, underlined is positive, bold is negative, in other words: nuanced. You will notice that DCG's review mentioned the same problem, so perhaps it's not a gangup. Perhaps there's a real problem in the way the game's overall narrative is constructed that made gamers feel forced to do bad things without the characters being questioned about it, without having any valid reason for doing it. Just maybe?

Did he gone through until the end and understood the game?

Spoiler!
Because one of the biggest complain of some fans is that after you took all the road for vengeance you rethink it and don't kill Abby/Ellie. And there are several conversations along the game about it. So his bolded is just wrong.
padib said:
VAMatt said:
The problem with this whole thread is that some people seem to have decided that Sony contacted reviewers with either threats or bribes. But, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of that at all. Simply calling reviewers and asking them things or advocating for the company's position is not in any way dishonest or morally wrong. It's what you're supposed to do to run a good business. And, we don't know that Sony did anything more than that.

If people are going to jump to the conclusion that's so nice she is doing something wrong just because they reached out to critics oh, there's really no way to have a conversation about this. People are just deciding that something bad happened with no evidence of it at all

There were threats and bribes. DCG testifies not receiving a Ghost of Tsushima preview copy (Quote from my summary post):

"- DCG asked for a preview copy of Ghost of Tsushima, and Sony did not give a response, even if they're apparently throwing copies around."

@bold. The article is clear that it's unusual and considered weird (see not really moral) if it isn't done by a big publisher to point out a factual error:

"Zacny clarified that the exchange wasn’t “confrontational,” but that it was nonetheless “unusual,” as the site doesn’t typically have big publishers asking in an official capacity why a review reads the way it does. Such things can happen, of course, though often with smaller developers, or from publishers who have spotted a factual error in a piece that they want corrected."

In my opinion, the true problem with this thread is that people don't read the source material and just post incomplete opinions. Looks at the number of times I've used the source to explain parts that people should have known had they read the article linked in OP, or watched the referenced videos. People need to read the content and make sense of it, otherwise we will just keep getting less informed.

As for DCG, he mentioned:

"- Sony, on behalf of Naughty Dog, wrote to them that "They felt some of the conclusions I [Zacny] reached in my review were unfair and dismissed some meaningful changes or improvements", Zacny told Polygon over Twitter.
- Dreamcastguy says that this is bonkers, and it only happened to him once before when he gave a 2/10 over a game that he considered very bad. Years ago, after DCG published the negative review, the CEO of the game studio reached him by email saying that he "didn't quite get it", trying to explain how the game worked, and more condescending comments. No matter how much cash or power these companies have, they are obsessed with client feedback, to be hyper in tune with gamers, to make sure that everyone is on the same wavelength."

@XL-klaudkil. Two in OP, unless you don't believe independent journalists.

When OP is inflammatory don't expect people to put a lot of time to investigate what is already obvious biased attack.

konnichiwa said:
Well reviewers were not allowed to talk about certain parts you may expect some backlslash.

They were not allowed to talk about some parts if they wanted to publish the review a week before the release of the game, but if they waited for the day of release they could talk about those. Most of the reviewers prefered to do a early review. Digital Foundry and some others prefered to do two reviews, one where they obbeyed the holding of some points for early review and another where they didn't hold for the full review. And few reviewers opted for the full review at release date or later.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Don: just pointing out you referring to libertarianism. That’s people that don’t want government intervention. Not exactly the same as being conservative though historically the compliment each other I’ll admit that.



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

konnichiwa said:
Well reviewers were not allowed to talk about certain parts you may expect some backlslash.

They were not allowed to talk about some parts if they wanted to publish the review a week before the release of the game, but if they waited for the day of release they could talk about those. Most of the reviewers prefered to do a early review. Digital Foundry and some others prefered to do two reviews, one where they obbeyed the holding of some points for early review and another where they didn't hold for the full review. And few reviewers opted for the full review at release date or later.

Well yeah that's the point, the ones who are pissed are exactly calling out that reason, I am glad others waited and gave it a fair review (whatever the score they gave).