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Forums - Politics Discussion - (POSSIBLE SPOILERS INSIDE) The agenda and political discussion of Naughty Dog

 

Have politics damaged the quality of ND games

No 39 41.94%
 
Yes 54 58.06%
 
Total:93
Immersiveunreality on 28 June 2020
Runa216 said:
Immersiveunreality said:

I honestly feel sorry for you that you need to think like this,always the worst possible assumption about people and i do think you do not even have the best experience to make those assumptions.

Did you have to deal with racism and sexism or maybe do you speak out of anger and hate or guilt and reflect your own wrong thinking of the past upon others and the assumption is that others are like your past self?

Why in the world do you feel the need to constantly berate me for being too cynical or not giving people the benefit of the doubt? I spent the last 30 years giving people the benefit of the doubt in most cases, and when it comes to shitty, bigoted, ignorant, backwater bullshit arguments about progress and tolerance I'm always shown to be naive about it. When it comes to issues of representation in the media, equality, and social progress, I've learned that 90% of the time people are just closet bigots trying to justify their beliefs by any means necessary. 

The funny thing is that I grew up in Canada, where even conservative Christian types were weirdly okay with gay/trans/bi people. I grew up in a community where they were very similar to American republicans without any of the bigotry. It wasn't until the internet happened to me and I met Americans that I realized that...holy shit prejudice is still a thing and its hiding in plain view. Bigotry like this - where people will bend over backwards to justify their own narratives just so they can be offended by inclusion - is the worst kind because it's masquerading as reason when it's got nothing of the sort fuelling it. 

I'm so vigilant against 'subtle bigotry' because I'm sick of terrible people getting away with racism, sexism, homophobia, and xenophobia by hiding behind whatever the excuse du jour is. "Oh, we're just keeping bloodlines pure" has turned to "I just don't want pandering media companies pushing propaganda". What used to be "We just want to keep the races separate" has become "We don't want them making our kids gay". 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not going to pretend that this subtle, low-key bigotry isn't real becuase it makes you uncomfortable or because you don't personally have to deal with it or were too sheltered to see that it's a very real issue that needs to be addressed and complacency is NOT the way to fix it. 

First/sec bolded: because i think you are shoving together a lot of good meaning people with the bigots while doing nothing constructive outside of pretending to be a good person,you say but don't act or learn from your own teachings.If there are actually any bigots then you yourself will never change them with behaving like this and all that is left is ''subtle''(cough) selfpraising and you might keep doing that till the world goes under while solving shit.How you behave comes close to extremism.

Third bolded: I'm 35 year old and had to deal with racism all of my life while being autistic,while other kids had a happy life i mostly cried myself to sleep.I used to be very hatefull for a long time and generalized people the same way as you do but i'm so thankfull i got over it and accepted i was wrong and only selfdestructive.

You are also bringing the focus and attention towards negatives in what could be a thread about a game.

Last edited by Immersiveunreality - on 28 June 2020

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goopy20 on 28 June 2020

I get why nobody wanted to see Joel die, and that probably sparked a lot of the SJW nonsense. But for a sequal to a game with such a definitive ending, I think part 2 is actually extremely well written. It showed many different sides of the world of TLOU. The consequences of Joel's actions from part 1, but also why he would have done the same thing if he could do it all over again. Imo seeing two different sides was an amazing idea and it really had an impact on me. I mean I felt pretty terrible when I found Abby's dog lying in a pool of blood, while as Ellie it was just another random attack dog you killed without giving it a second thought.

But whether you think the story is good or not, it's still an incredible game. To me its strange that some are so worked up about the story without even mentioning how big a leap the gameplay and scope of the game is compared to part 1. 

I do get why people are so irritated by this whole SJW thing we've been seeing in movies lately. It's not about being insecure about your masculinity or some BS like that, its about ruining old or making bad movies just to force diversity onto people. It's just weird. Why would anyone not be able to enjoy a movie or a game because they can't relate to the main character? Can I relate to Thor, the god of thunder, just because he is a male and has the same skin color as me? Did Tomb Raider flop because 95% of the gaming audience couldn't relate to the main character? Nobody cares what race or sex a character is, as long as it doesn't feel forced and made a big thing off. But yeah when we had the whole female cast of Star Wars with "the force is female" doing a press conference, then I get how that can rub fans the wrong way.

Last edited by goopy20 - on 28 June 2020

Immersiveunreality on 28 June 2020
goopy20 said:

I get why nobody wanted to see Joel die, and that probably sparked a lot of the SJW nonsense. But for a sequal to a game with such a definitive ending, I think part 2 is actually extremely well written. It showed many different sides of the world of TLOU. The consequences of Joel's actions from part 1, but also why he would have done the same thing if he could do it all over again. Imo seeing two different sides was an amazing idea and it really had an impact on me. I mean I felt pretty terrible when I found Abby's dog lying in a pool of blood, while as Ellie it was just another random attack dog you killed without giving it a second thought.

But whether you think the story is good or not, it's still an incredible game. To me its strange that some are so worked up about the story without even mentioning how big a leap the gameplay and scope of the game is compared to part 1.

Yes it is and the voice acting is top notch.



EnricoPallazzo on 28 June 2020
Hiku said:
EnricoPallazzo said:

I was going to reply with my arguments but to be honest I think this discussion leads nowhere. If people think tlou2 is not a woke game and the story is good and it is a 10 game, its ok there is nothing wrong with it. praise democracy. Some people think different and that is also ok, at least for now.

I'd like to hear 1.) how its a woke game 2.) in a way that's bad.
I don't know where some people draw the line at either of those things. Two female characters kissing was apparently crossing the line for some when that second trailer dropped. Also, it doesn't have to be one or the other. I don't think its a 10/10 game for example. Nowhere near as bad as I was lead to believe though.

I think it was fine until the ending. When you see the farm, and two characters discuss whether they should do a certain thing or not.
I do not believe that either of those characters would behave that way. I don't think it was properly developed, and that's where the writing majorly falters imo.

But seeing comments suggesting that us white male people are in trouble over how we're portrayed through 'every villain in the game being a white male" (which wasn't true anyway) is pretty weird. I don't know what to say really.

Do you have the post where I said it? I'm not saying I didn't say it, it's just I want to understand the context when I said it or if maybe I was quoting someone. 



EnricoPallazzo on 28 June 2020
Hiku said:
EnricoPallazzo said:

Do you have the post where I said it? I'm not saying I didn't say it, it's just I want to understand the context when I said it or if maybe I was quoting someone. 

It was the Leaks spoiler discussion thread.
To be clear I didn't read through your entire post, so I also don't know the full context. I was looking at it because we got some reports, and I tried to evaluate it while avoiding spoilers. Which was very difficult, so I ended up seeing a couple before leaving it.

If you are interested in explaining your thought process and can't find it (maybe you edited it out to say something else), I can look it up. We can see all your previous edits to a post.
I may have mixed you up with another member, but I'm pretty sure it was you.

Dont worry, not necessary. I believe I was quoting other people, probably giving a list of things people were complaining about the game. Or maybe it was a comment on the retcon of abby's father that used to be black in the first game. also I have seen the leaks since the beginning and the guys that spits in Joel is latino so I believe I was not stating my opinion if I said that.



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goopy20 on 28 June 2020
John2290 said:
Mummelmann said:

Don't know about plenty, it's hardly the norm and the ones with more tone are typically short. A tall, heavy female IPF lifter with good definition is truly rare (my only known example would have to be Canadian lifter Jessica Buettner, she's about 70-75 kg's most of the time but only about 170 cm tall, or 5'7"). My main gripe was with the example you provided, that one is quite clearly on the juice.

I'm not saying it's implausible that a woman like Abby exists, even in the apocalypse, not at all. What I'm saying is that she would likely be on gear to become that bulky, especially since it's unlikely you'll find fully-equipped 24-hour gyms around the corner in a post-apocalyptic city. As I mentioned, I know a lot of women who are just as bulky, and even more so, but they all have something in common (ownership of a surprising amount of needles). I used to hang out in the fitness/BB/Strongman/Strongwoman environment some years ago (I briefly tried to compete in Strongman myself). I also trained with IPF lifter between 2008-2011, a few of the girls were crazy strong but didn't have very bulky or defined upper bodies.



The girl above is one from my old club grounds, Norwegian national champion (Marte Elverum) and two times winner of Junior World's in the IPF, she weighs about 70 kg's but is only 164 cm tall so her frame looks broader, she's incredibly strong in the deadlift. To sport similar-looking mass on what appears to be probably about or just under 6' - or 182'ish centimeters (for Abby) would be incredibly rare, especially without "special" supplements. The girl pictured above (Miss Elverum) trains 5-6 times per week, varying from 2 hours and up to 2,5 or even 3 hours per session, depending on where she is in the season, and she's coached by the national team's head coach with staff at that and has access to every training-related implement and locale known to man.

Once more; big and strong women exist, and I know many, but Zoombael's claim that Abby would likely be on the juice to get that frame on that height is very much valid, which was the point to begin with, not whether or not tall, bulky females exist.

She has a female form though, Abby has a males body copy and pasted with her head on it. To preface I have nothing wrong with Abby being buff, just that they could have studied how females build muscle and reflected iy in Abbys form. 

Abby physique reminds me of Ronda Rousey. It's definitely possible for a woman to get muscled like that, its just that they'll lose it a lot faster. You also saw that at the end of the game when Abby's muscles were pretty much gone.

  



Torillian on 28 June 2020
padib said:
Hiku said:

I'd like to hear 1.) how its a woke game 2.) in a way that's bad.
I don't know where some people draw the line at either of those things. Two female characters kissing was apparently crossing the line for some when that second trailer dropped. Also, it doesn't have to be one or the other. I don't think its a 10/10 game for example. Nowhere near as bad as I was lead to believe though.

I think it was fine until the ending. When you see the farm, and two characters discuss whether they should do a certain thing or not.
I do not believe that either of those characters would behave that way. I don't think it was properly developed, and that's where the writing majorly falters imo.

But seeing comments suggesting that us white male people are in trouble over how we're portrayed through 'every villain in the game being a white male" (which wasn't true anyway) is pretty weird. I don't know what to say really.

Hiku, it's not just an opinion, it's been confirmed by the artists. We know it from Star Wars, where they quote on quote sought to bring down what was previously established, and subvert peoples' expectations. Only movies that follow the new "woke" narrative are praised by critics, those that don't are bashed (see Joker).

In order to fit the bill, the movie must have a female lead, or a male lead who is not white.

You should follow nerdrotic. This man had a comics shop for 10 years, a true lover of comics, and in the end he saw how they tore down Star Wars and became disillusioned with the film and comic industry, and he is very in-touch with what's happening. I know that you don't understand my point of view, but do me a favor, if you want to understand my opinion, you need to watch this guy.

I'll try to share the bets ones (it takes me time to do that, so also please check my last post with links to his channel):

I also found this video by banditincorporated very interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y6XLQFFBfQ

Here is one from Just Some Guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3weqsp8EGIs and this one, which is more comical: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNMTM0yJpbc

And this one about "white male entitlement" by left foot media: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kgRYocqvco about this article https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/star-wars-has-a-white-male-fandom-problem

And there are even better ones I was not able to track back in my 2 hour research I just did to try to support my POV.

You did 2 hours of research on how Star Wars has gone woke to answer how TLOU2 is woke and why that's bad? I don't want to call your methods into question.....but you may have misdirected your time and effort. 



...

KLXVER on 28 June 2020
padib said:
Hiku said:

I'd like to hear 1.) how its a woke game 2.) in a way that's bad.
I don't know where some people draw the line at either of those things. Two female characters kissing was apparently crossing the line for some when that second trailer dropped. Also, it doesn't have to be one or the other. I don't think its a 10/10 game for example. Nowhere near as bad as I was lead to believe though.

I think it was fine until the ending. When you see the farm, and two characters discuss whether they should do a certain thing or not.
I do not believe that either of those characters would behave that way. I don't think it was properly developed, and that's where the writing majorly falters imo.

But seeing comments suggesting that us white male people are in trouble over how we're portrayed through 'every villain in the game being a white male" (which wasn't true anyway) is pretty weird. I don't know what to say really.

Hiku, it's not just an opinion, it's been confirmed by the artists. We know it from Star Wars, where they quote on quote sought to bring down what was previously established, and subvert peoples' expectations. Only movies that follow the new "woke" narrative are praised by critics, those that don't are bashed (see Joker).

In order to fit the bill, the movie must have a female lead, or a male lead who is not white.

You should follow nerdrotic. This man had a comics shop for 10 years, a true lover of comics, and in the end he saw how they tore down Star Wars and became disillusioned with the film and comic industry, and he is very in-touch with what's happening. I know that you don't understand my point of view, but do me a favor, if you want to understand my opinion, you need to watch this guy.

I'll try to share the bets ones (it takes me time to do that, so also please check my last post with links to his channel):

I also found this video by banditincorporated very interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y6XLQFFBfQ

Here is one from Just Some Guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3weqsp8EGIs and this one, which is more comical: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNMTM0yJpbc

And this one about "white male entitlement" by left foot media: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kgRYocqvco about this article https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/star-wars-has-a-white-male-fandom-problem

And there are even better ones I was not able to track back in my 2 hour research I just did to try to support my POV.

I dont think you can compare TLOU2 to Star Wars.

There is no agenda in TLOU2. Yes, there are people of all walks of life, but they are not lifted up in any way. There is no men are stupid and women are better. Theres no minorities know better than the white man or whatever. You could say that established characters in TLOU2 acts different than they did in the first one. Yes, at times they do. Thats what 5 years of experience can do to a person. 



KLXVER on 28 June 2020
padib said:
Torillian said:

You did 2 hours of research on how Star Wars has gone woke to answer how TLOU2 is woke and why that's bad? I don't want to call your methods into question.....but you may have misdirected your time and effort. 

Your replies are too easy and show a lack of effort. I actually care a lot about this topic, so 2 hours for me are well invested.

I made it absolutely clear since my first post about this question (TLOU2 being woke) that the problem that went beyond video games, but is everywhere in entertainment media today. If it serves my point then I'm happy to spend that time.

Regarding TLOU2, you know what scene I'm referring to that is nonsense, but if you don't, I'll post it here

Spoiler!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwzNbR0_gQA

I was just as annoyed watching this as I was furious watching Solo die for nothing and Luke milking space cows, some purple-haired idiot mansplaning to Poe or Rey kicking every guy's ass while having no training.

@KLXVER same answer.
Spoiler!
What do you mean died for nothing? His death is almost the whole reason for everything that happens in this game.


Immersiveunreality on 28 June 2020
KLXVER said:
padib said:

Your replies are too easy and show a lack of effort. I actually care a lot about this topic, so 2 hours for me are well invested.

I made it absolutely clear since my first post about this question (TLOU2 being woke) that the problem that went beyond video games, but is everywhere in entertainment media today. If it serves my point then I'm happy to spend that time.

Regarding TLOU2, you know what scene I'm referring to that is nonsense, but if you don't, I'll post it here

Spoiler!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwzNbR0_gQA

I was just as annoyed watching this as I was furious watching Solo die for nothing and Luke milking space cows, some purple-haired idiot mansplaning to Poe or Rey kicking every guy's ass while having no training.

@KLXVER same answer.
Spoiler!
What do you mean died for nothing? His death is almost the whole reason for everything that happens in this game.
Spoiler!
For some a lesson in revenge is not enough to justify the decision to make such a drastic and schocking thing happen to one of the most beloved characters of all time in games.

Not my personal view on it but i understand how others can look at this and when there is so much backlash for that same thing then it raises the question if this was a bad direction or not.