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Forums - Politics Discussion - (POSSIBLE SPOILERS INSIDE) The agenda and political discussion of Naughty Dog

 

Have politics damaged the quality of ND games

No 39 41.94%
 
Yes 54 58.06%
 
Total:93
KLXVER on 28 June 2020
Immersiveunreality said:
KLXVER said:
Spoiler!
What do you mean died for nothing? His death is almost the whole reason for everything that happens in this game.
Spoiler!
For some a lesson in revenge is not enough to justify the decision to make such a drastic and schocking thing happen to one of the most beloved characters of all time in games.

Not my personal view on it but i understand how others can look at this and when there is so much backlash for that same thing then it raises the question if this was a bad direction or not.
Spoiler!
I understand that. The game is not told in a traditional way. Its a downer. I think a lot of people do not enjoy that. Theres very little hope, no one to really root for, no happy endings etc. Im not saying people who dont like the game are wrong, I just think they are disappointed that the game didnt meet many or any of their expectations.


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KLXVER on 28 June 2020
padib said:
Hiku said:

When you say "it's been confirmed by the artist", I'd rather get a source and a quote.
Because what often happens on the internet is that people interpret the same quote differently.

For example, if an artist says "we strive to be inclusive", that can literally mean just mirroring our society.
If 50% in our world are women, are we considering a balanced male to female ratio in our game? If 5% of people identify as LGBT, are we thinking about that when we design our characters? No? Well let's try to consider it then.
And some times, as in real life, some of those characters are at the center of a story.

Is that considered 'woke'?

I have actually followed Nerdrotic for a while. I watched/listened to most of his videos regarding Game of Thrones for example. I liked them.
Then he said a few things that set of some red flags for me, and I decided to click "Do not recommend this channel" on Youtube.

I'd rather not discuss Star Wars here if you don't mind. But I'll say that I have a million and one issues with how they handled Luke Skywalker in those films. One of the worst character assassinations I've experienced. But none of those issues were related to this subject.

I'll try to find you a quote. I'm actually glad you watched his channel, even if for a time. My post wasn't about Star Wars, you saw I also posted about Dark Fate, and then in my prior quote, Joker, but you know I was trying to find that quote for you.

Unfortunately I can't find the exact quote, but what I think is a pretty good indication of girl power being shoved into our throats is the example of Dark Fate, and then this video about how Kathleen Kennedy hired people based on their sex, rather than on their competence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y6XLQFFBfQ

I'm glad we agree that what they did to Luke was abhorrent, and it's part of a trend to abase the male white leads and replace them with female leads (often white) or people of diverse ethnic origins. And I am actually an ethnic minority, but it doesn't stop me from seeing through what they're doing. Let's list them out, all those we see, in hollywood and in games:

Spoiler!
  • Female leads are replacing male leads
  • Movies are losing their depth, narrative quality, and depth of characters
  • The movies feel cheep and soulless
  • Rey is a Mary Sue who can do no wrong and beats everyone up (especially men)
  • Men, especially father figures, are being killed off. By the way, TLOU2 was released on Father's day weekend, not a coincidence
  • Solo was killed at the hand of his son
  • Luke becomes a depressed homeless man on a faraway island, completely the opposite of the hero figure we knew him to be. They deconstructed him for a purpose
  • Dark Fate has John Connor, the hero of the franchise, killed off to make room for women heroes
  • The franchises are losing money and audiences fast, Star Wars is now in a type of break, and toys are not selling at all, the theme park is a failure
  • The media is demonizing fans for rising up against the big studios destroying the franchises they loved.
  • Kathleen Kennedy lies about Star Wars cannon not existing
  • People are being hired based on their sex
  • Fans are being bullied with sexist and racist remarks (see my last post)
  • Doctor who is changed for a woman
  • The media praises movies that fit the feminist and gender-bending content, while bashing those that are more traditional. The audience sees through it

There's more and more and more but my memory is just not good enough to keep everything in.

@KLXVER.

Spoiler!
I am certain another means of spurring the events in the game was possible, one that wasn't as infuriating. The topic of the demonized father figure that gets killed by a teen or a girl is getting old.

Well it getting old is another thing. Thats fair enough.  



AngryLittleAlchemist on 28 June 2020
John2290 said:
goopy20 said:

Abby physique reminds me of Ronda Rousey. It's definitely possible for a woman to get muscled like that, its just that they'll lose it a lot faster. You also saw that at the end of the game when Abby's muscles were pretty much gone.

  

Ronda still has a female form in her abdomin, thighs, hips and the arch of her back and with this picture of Ronda, you were very selective to avoid these areas. It may be possible for some naturally butch women but not from the figure Abby started with, Abby has a mans ass, back and has lost aspects that make her womanly. Anyway, this is such a silly trivial thing everyone is harping on, I'm out and I fon't know why I engaged again. 

Honestly it really bothers me just how concerned you are by all this. It's actually a little alarming. Does it really matter at the end of the day? You obviously don't think it's trivial if you just keep arguing about it. Which, me stating that will probably cause you to double down on not replying anymore, but the point still stands whether you keep replying or not. 



DonFerrari on 28 June 2020
John2290 said:
goopy20 said:

Abby physique reminds me of Ronda Rousey. It's definitely possible for a woman to get muscled like that, its just that they'll lose it a lot faster. You also saw that at the end of the game when Abby's muscles were pretty much gone.

  

Ronda still has a female form in her abdomin, thighs, hips and the arch of her back and with this picture of Ronda, you were very selective to avoid these areas. It may be possible for some naturally butch women but not from the figure Abby started with, Abby has a mans ass, back and has lost aspects that make her womanly. Anyway, this is such a silly trivial thing everyone is harping on, I'm out and I fon't know why I engaged again. 

When you see how skinny some of the best bodybuilders even on the heaviest categories were you'll get surprised.

You can see Abby even when younger (flashback) had all the look of a endomorph, almost square form (and there are woman like that).

Search for "mulher pedra" and "renato cariani", you'll see a girl that have basically a male body (she have a rare disease that she can't retain fat on the body, although having a round face), she is bigger and squarier than Abby.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari on 28 June 2020

Do anyone still have that video or interview of Neil Druckman on identitary policies, representation and being inspired by Anita Sarkeesian?

https://archive.fo/7It2D

https://archive.fo/slABs

“Rolling Stone: You’ve said in the past that you’ve been influenced by Anita Sarkeesian’s Feminist Frequency videos and the larger conversation about diversity and representation in games. How did that affect Uncharted 4?

Druckmann: When I’m introducing and describing a new character to our lead character concept artist, constantly she will ask, “What if it was a girl?” And I’m like, “Oh, I didn’t think about that. Let me think, does that affect or change anything? No? Cool, that’s different. Yeah, let’s do it.”

Initially, in the epilogue, it was Nate’s son. Something similar happened with the mansion they go into. That was an old English guy’s house. She asked, “Well, what if it was a woman?”

You have some sexist focus testers who were really upset by Nadine beating up Nate, and really upset at the end when it was Nate’s daughter. To the point where we had to ask one guy to leave. In his core, it just affected him. He was cursing, “Not you, too, Naughty Dog! Goddammit. I guess I’m done with Uncharted if you guys ever make another one, with his daughter. This fucking bullshit.” And I was like, Wow, why does that matter?”

This is what I found from brief search.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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KLXVER on 28 June 2020
padib said:
Hiku said:

That is the question I was asking, yeah.
So why do you think this scene happened at the point in time it did? Would it work the same way or better if it occurred later, in order to understand Abby? Why/why not?

Wanting the players to experience something specific with your writing can also be labeled as an agenda. May not be something nefarious, but still important to discuss when we bring up the story.

Also I don't know how much of the game you're familiar with. Have you experienced the full story?

I truly haven't, I watched a number of portions of the game, and I appreciated what I saw. But I did not play it myself.

Spoiler!
However when it comes to the way Joel was killed and what he had to do for it to happen, I feel like it's out of character for the protagonist of the first game, I feel like it was forced into the story. If it happened later, at least players would have appreciated playing as Joel for a bit longer. Also, if what happened was done at the hands of an antagonist that would have been very difficult to watch, but at least the players would not have to play as the character who did that vile thing. Still, it felt cheap and of course it had to be done at the hands of a girl, which makes it even nastier. You know, we saw Ned Stark die at the hands of Geoffrey Baratheon, that worked because Geoffrey was a piece of shit and it only made his character more detestable. But here, Abby is the protagonist of the game, and it felt like girl power being forced into yet another game, and I personally see through it and, while I'm not a fan of TLOU (though I respect the game), it makes me angry that this kind of thing is creeping into media and entertainment.
Spoiler!
Why is it that if a guy did it, it would be fine...but if a girl does it, then its girl power? I just find that a bit weird. Why does it matter?


DonFerrari on 28 June 2020
padib said:
Hiku said:

That is the question I was asking, yeah.
So why do you think this scene happened at the point in time it did? Would it work the same way or better if it occurred later, in order to understand Abby? Why/why not?

Wanting the players to experience something specific with your writing can also be labeled as an agenda. May not be something nefarious, but still important to discuss when we bring up the story.

Also I don't know how much of the game you're familiar with. Have you experienced the full story?

I truly haven't, I watched a number of portions of the game, and I appreciated what I saw. But I did not play it myself.

Spoiler!
However when it comes to the way Joel was killed and what he had to do for it to happen, I feel like it's out of character for the protagonist of the first game, I feel like it was forced into the story. If it happened later, at least players would have appreciated playing as Joel for a bit longer. Also, if what happened was done at the hands of an antagonist that would have been very difficult to watch, but at least the players would not have to play as the character who did that vile thing. Still, it felt cheap and of course it had to be done at the hands of a girl, which makes it even nastier. You know, we saw Ned Stark die at the hands of Geoffrey Baratheon, that worked because Geoffrey was a piece of shit and it only made his character more detestable. But here, Abby is the protagonist of the game, and it felt like girl power being forced into yet another game, and I personally see through it and, while I'm not a fan of TLOU (though I respect the game), it makes me angry that this kind of thing is creeping into media and entertainment.
Spoiler!

I know that woman are lot less prone to violence and killing, but also are more prone to revenge than man. I didn't see any girl power just because you played as two female protagonists. Also the choice to play as the one that killed Joel is even better since it give more impact on understanding the person that killed him.

For me the only flaws I see in the plot is that Abby was dumb on planning and that she left things incomplete, generating easy reciprocication.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Runa216 on 28 June 2020
Hiku said:
Immersiveunreality said:
Spoiler!
For some a lesson in revenge is not enough to justify the decision to make such a drastic and schocking thing happen to one of the most beloved characters of all time in games.

Not my personal view on it but i understand how others can look at this and when there is so much backlash for that same thing then it raises the question if this was a bad direction or not.

I'll ask you a similar question.

What are some of the reasons you think Naughty Dog 1.) had that event happen 2.) at the stage it happened? (As in early in the game vs late in the game.)
What were they trying to convey, and how did the timing and execution of that scene affect this?

Spoiler!
Lesson in revenge

is more vague. I'm looking for more elaborate analysis.

I want to compare my understanding to your guys. Because as I kept playing, I became less and less against the decision, and eventually felt like this was more or less the only way to do what they tried to do. Which I've never seen before in a game. Or perhaps any medium.

I've given up trying to find logic in the hate. The more I read about the game and the way the story unfolds, the clearer it is that it's a well-written story with well-developed characters that makes logical sense in the context of the situation but that some people will bend over backwards and stick their head up their ass so deep they tongue their own throat from behind just to justify why they're frothing at the mouth to rant about SJW propaganda. 

Every reasonable person I've met has similar experiences as you. Without the inherent bias going in, the story makes plenty of sense and the characters are reasonable. There's nothing worth getting angry about, but I guess someone heard there were lesbians in the game so they twist everything they can to hate it. 

I don't even know what to say about all this anymore. IT's just so exhausting to argue with people who aren't conversing with logic but shouting agendas about limiting representation while crying and pretending to be the victim. It's really quite sad, and it's even sadder that so many people are playing the 'it's equal on both sides' card as if that's a catch-all to act like there isn't a right and wrong answer here. 



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

Runa216 on 28 June 2020
John2290 said:
AngryLittleAlchemist said:

Honestly it really bothers me just how concerned you are by all this. It's actually a little alarming. Does it really matter at the end of the day? You obviously don't think it's trivial if you just keep arguing about it. Which, me stating that will probably cause you to double down on not replying anymore, but the point still stands whether you keep replying or not. 

I'm glad it bothers you.

Well aren't you the most mature little guy! You and people like you are why we can't have constructive discussions on these matters. 



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

KLXVER on 28 June 2020
Runa216 said:
John2290 said:

I'm glad it bothers you.

Well aren't you the most mature little guy! You and people like you are why we can't have constructive discussions on these matters. 

Well you call people bigots and sexists for questioning Abbys body, so maybe not accuse other people of being immature?