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Forums - Gaming Discussion - MS Executive says Devs will need to learn how to work around Slower SSD on XSX

Pemalite said:
DonFerrari said:

Except the "power of the cloud to make X1 3 or 4x stronger" never existed or were used. So you mixed buzz words (which implies that they are more like publicity stunts) with the technology and implementation.

Cloud processing can be used for things like DLSS... nVidia uses it's giant server farms to analyze various images on it's servers, which is then the necessary data that the Tensor cores use in order to upscale a game.

Playstation Now game streaming, project xCloud, Stadia are all cloud solutions as well.

Cloud-processing isn't a new thing, it's not an exclusive technology to any platform, anything with an internet connection can leverage it.

But it was certainly a buzzword... And I would argue the "64 bits" on the Nintendo 64 was a buzzword as well, every console manufacturer is guilty of using buzzwords to various degrees, it helps build hype.

Bonzinga said:

That's what it turned out to be, the power of the cloud was talk in the end, but that's no different to Sony claiming the Cell is leagues better than any other CPU ever created and it never shown. Its all the same BS with these major companies. Its all talk, and the SSD is just another piece of tech to get the customers talking. Will we see it prevail? Lets just say none of the games shown at the PS5 event looked like it can only be done on the PS5's super fast SSD.. but ill give them more time to prove it.

It wasn't all "talk" the buzzwords never are. It just wasn't understood what it's limitations and ramifications were by the general public.
Cloud computing is definitely a thing and definitely being used more and more as time goes on.

Cell was definitely an impressive chip, having that many threads back in 2006 was definitely impressive, it's just that it's per-core performance was pretty average... And anything outside of iterative refinement floating point was also pretty poor... And because a console is more than just a single component, games never looked significantly more advanced than Xbox or PC at the time.

But the Cell definitely had some advantages if a developer leveraged it right.

The real issue is individuals grabbing those marketing terms and plastering it everywhere without actually understanding what it means for gaming, how it applies and influences how a game is being developed or rendered is where the real issue steps in.

It was like when we transitioned away from using "bits" in console-speak to determine a consoles generational capabilities... The 5th Gen Nintendo 64 was a 64bit console and the Original Xbox was a 32bit console like the PS1, there is certainly benefits to using 64bit registers, but there is so much more that determines capabilities than bits, hence why the Original Xbox, despite being only 32bit was significantly more capable than a 64bit console overall.


goopy20 said:

They already did. Ratchet and Clank used some pretty cool warping tricks to utilize the SSD, and HZD2 looked downright insane with loads more assets variation compared to part 1. 

You sure that isn't a function of a doubling of Rram, additional ray tracing Cores, multiples better CPU capability, much improved memory bandwidth or a significantly improved graphics processor or something else? Why is it chalked up to just the SSD? Did nothing else contribute?

goopy20 said:

Maybe the MS event was just an appetizer for July. But if it was, it sure was a yucky one. MS really needs to show they're serious about Series X and their 1st party support. The last thing they should show now is another stream of Xbox One games with a bunch of optimized for Series X logos. It's definitely going to be interesting to see how MS responds, though.

Yeah Microsoft's PR has been pretty average up to this point, they did start off really well though, but they need to get a hold of the changing narrative.

Keen to see what happens going forth.

I'm sure that was the sum of it parts but you have to admit that instantly zipping through completely different levels is something we hadn't quite seen before and probably wouldn't be possible without the SSD tech (not just the SSD).

There were loads of cross gen and multiplatform games at the ps5 event but we've already seen glimpses of what developers can do with the ps5 exclusives. Ratchet & Clank showed a pretty cool implementation and we'll probably see more stuff like that in other games. I'm thinking stuff like we're seeing in movies where the main character gets a flashback and you're instantly in a completely different environment, or things like time-travel happening in real-time. HZD 2 seemed to be using it in a different way and is aiming for loads more variation in its level design with sick looking underwater, outdoor and indoor environments. It also seems to have some pretty awesome wind and weather effects. Spider man 2 also seems to have a lot denser world and a much greater sense of speed. And Demon Souls seems to be doing the original cgi intro in real time. 

All in all it was pretty impressive stuff. Bit of a shame that the game play clips were so short. But I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot more of those games leading up to the ps5 launch.

Last edited by goopy20 - on 12 June 2020

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goopy20 said:

I'm sure that was the sum of it parts but you have to admit that instantly zipping through completely different levels is something we hadn't quite seen before and probably wouldn't be possible without the SSD tech (not just the SSD).

Games used to be tied to clockrate on the PC for the longest time for a games internal tickrate. (Hence why PC's introduced a Turbo-button)
So consequently when you dropped in a new CPU, the games speed would increase at the same rate.

Zipping around levels is entirely possible to do at that speed on even an Xbox 360 without an SSD. - You just need that working set data entirely in Ram... Which means you will need to make cutbacks to asset quality to ensure all the required data is available on demand in working memory.
So yes, it was entirely possible to achieve on older hardware.

Think of it this way... On older consoles you needed to preload "possible" data 30 seconds ahead of time, we saw this in games like Metroid Prime on the Gamecube where the game would start preloading the new level area as soon as you started to approach the door to a new area and unload that data if you started to back away.

With the SSD we only need to preload data a couple of seconds ahead of time, which means that we don't need to start preloading that level until we hit the "open door" button.
What that ultimately means is that we don't need to reserve a chunk of the working memory for future level areas, we can use more memory for the current area improving overall visuals. - But we will still need to preload data ahead of time, the SSD is only 5.5GB/s, it's still a limitation.

In short, it's making more efficient use of the limited 16GB of Ram, it doesn't solve all of our I/O limitations and ills.

As for the expediency of traveling through landscapes, many racing games have been able to do it for years, they just keep less assets in memory in order to pull it off, there have been other city-scape games where you have traversed over city areas without that "hitching" seen in the Spiderman demo. GTA 5?

Plus loading and streaming data is not just attributed to storage capabilities either, the CPU needs to do allot of heavy lifting in order to handle things like draw calls, procedural generation, decompression/unpacking, scripting and so forth. Allot goes into it, more than people realize.

The difference this time around is that, although the SSD is still very much a hard physical limitation as it's only 5.5GB/s verses the 448GB/s of Ram bandwidth, it's significantly alleviated as it's leaps and bounds ahead of mechanical disks... And that means big things for developers.

My issue is that people aren't focusing on the other generational defining hardware characteristics of the next-gen consoles like the very impressive memory bandwidth, the ray tracing cores, the very capable Ryzen processors and so much more which will hopefully result in far more interactivity and degrees of simulation that just wasn't possible on older devices.

DonFerrari said:

I certainly understand and agree that cloud processing is something real, my point was on "making X1 4x more powerful" and the expectations that part of the game would run on the cloud with very big latency and bandwidth it wouldn`t work fine. As you said there is implementations like DLSS and full streaming (which in the end is video and inputs instead of transfering portion of the computation), if the 50Mb/s of a HDD is slow to draw data to be processed locally imagine a 10 or even 100Mb/s to send packages of data to be processed and returned with latency and matching that. MS was just way to early on Power of the Cloud.

The good thing is... Usually when a company makes an audacious claim, the internet will react with great hilarity and turn it into a running meme, so that does keep some of the more ludicrous claims in check.

As for bandwidth/latency and cloud processing, not all tasks need to be done in just 1-2ms or require 1MB/s of bandwidth, some tasks like doing weather simulation calculations can occur 100-200ms late and require just kb/s of bandwidth.

It's great for some tasks, but not everything, which is why the "Power of the Cloud" turned into a running joke.

But the compute power of a server farm cannot be understated, we are often talking super computer levels of computational capability on demand, it's just it's limited in how it can be applied to games being rendered locally on a console or PC... And ultimately that is where the issue lays.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
goopy20 said:

I'm sure that was the sum of it parts but you have to admit that instantly zipping through completely different levels is something we hadn't quite seen before and probably wouldn't be possible without the SSD tech (not just the SSD).

Games used to be tied to clockrate on the PC for the longest time for a games internal tickrate. (Hence why PC's introduced a Turbo-button)
So consequently when you dropped in a new CPU, the games speed would increase at the same rate.

Zipping around levels is entirely possible to do at that speed on even an Xbox 360 without an SSD. - You just need that working set data entirely in Ram... Which means you will need to make cutbacks to asset quality to ensure all the required data is available on demand in working memory.
So yes, it was entirely possible to achieve on older hardware.

Think of it this way... On older consoles you needed to preload "possible" data 30 seconds ahead of time, we saw this in games like Metroid Prime on the Gamecube where the game would start preloading the new level area as soon as you started to approach the door to a new area and unload that data if you started to back away.

With the SSD we only need to preload data a couple of seconds ahead of time, which means that we don't need to start preloading that level until we hit the "open door" button.
What that ultimately means is that we don't need to reserve a chunk of the working memory for future level areas, we can use more memory for the current area improving overall visuals. - But we will still need to preload data ahead of time, the SSD is only 5.5GB/s, it's still a limitation.

In short, it's making more efficient use of the limited 16GB of Ram, it doesn't solve all of our I/O limitations and ills.

As for the expediency of traveling through landscapes, many racing games have been able to do it for years, they just keep less assets in memory in order to pull it off, there have been other city-scape games where you have traversed over city areas without that "hitching" seen in the Spiderman demo. GTA 5?

Plus loading and streaming data is not just attributed to storage capabilities either, the CPU needs to do allot of heavy lifting in order to handle things like draw calls, procedural generation, decompression/unpacking, scripting and so forth. Allot goes into it, more than people realize.

The difference this time around is that, although the SSD is still very much a hard physical limitation as it's only 5.5GB/s verses the 448GB/s of Ram bandwidth, it's significantly alleviated as it's leaps and bounds ahead of mechanical disks... And that means big things for developers.

My issue is that people aren't focusing on the other generational defining hardware characteristics of the next-gen consoles like the very impressive memory bandwidth, the ray tracing cores, the very capable Ryzen processors and so much more which will hopefully result in far more interactivity and degrees of simulation that just wasn't possible on older devices.

Pretty sure this would not be possible on 360 lol, at least not without ruining the whole effect.

Obviously there's more to the ps5 than just the SSD, but we saw like 3 games where inter-dimensional travel seemed to be a core gameplay mechanic. Ratchet & Clank, Returnal and Dead Loop. My guess is that's because the developers went out of their way to use the SSD as some kind of tech-demo. If that'll make the gameplay better is another matter, but I definitely believe SSD will end up being the biggest leap compared to current gen.

With early games, developers are typically just testing the water when it comes to new tech, but hopefully it'll change the sense scale and immersion of games in more meaningful ways later on.   

Last edited by goopy20 - on 13 June 2020

goopy20 said:
Pemalite said:

Games used to be tied to clockrate on the PC for the longest time for a games internal tickrate. (Hence why PC's introduced a Turbo-button)
So consequently when you dropped in a new CPU, the games speed would increase at the same rate.

Zipping around levels is entirely possible to do at that speed on even an Xbox 360 without an SSD. - You just need that working set data entirely in Ram... Which means you will need to make cutbacks to asset quality to ensure all the required data is available on demand in working memory.
So yes, it was entirely possible to achieve on older hardware.

Think of it this way... On older consoles you needed to preload "possible" data 30 seconds ahead of time, we saw this in games like Metroid Prime on the Gamecube where the game would start preloading the new level area as soon as you started to approach the door to a new area and unload that data if you started to back away.

With the SSD we only need to preload data a couple of seconds ahead of time, which means that we don't need to start preloading that level until we hit the "open door" button.
What that ultimately means is that we don't need to reserve a chunk of the working memory for future level areas, we can use more memory for the current area improving overall visuals. - But we will still need to preload data ahead of time, the SSD is only 5.5GB/s, it's still a limitation.

In short, it's making more efficient use of the limited 16GB of Ram, it doesn't solve all of our I/O limitations and ills.

As for the expediency of traveling through landscapes, many racing games have been able to do it for years, they just keep less assets in memory in order to pull it off, there have been other city-scape games where you have traversed over city areas without that "hitching" seen in the Spiderman demo. GTA 5?

Plus loading and streaming data is not just attributed to storage capabilities either, the CPU needs to do allot of heavy lifting in order to handle things like draw calls, procedural generation, decompression/unpacking, scripting and so forth. Allot goes into it, more than people realize.

The difference this time around is that, although the SSD is still very much a hard physical limitation as it's only 5.5GB/s verses the 448GB/s of Ram bandwidth, it's significantly alleviated as it's leaps and bounds ahead of mechanical disks... And that means big things for developers.

My issue is that people aren't focusing on the other generational defining hardware characteristics of the next-gen consoles like the very impressive memory bandwidth, the ray tracing cores, the very capable Ryzen processors and so much more which will hopefully result in far more interactivity and degrees of simulation that just wasn't possible on older devices.

Pretty sure this would not be possible on 360/ps4, at least not without ruining the whole effect.

Obviously there's more to the ps5 than just the SSD, but we saw like 3 games where inter-dimensional travel seemed to be a core gameplay mechanic. Ratchet & Clank, Returnal and Dead Loop. My guess is that's because the developers went out of their way to use the SSD as some kind of tech-demo. If that'll make the gameplay better is another matter, but I believe SSD will end up being the biggest leap compared to current gen.

With early games, developers are typically just testing the water when it comes to new tech, but hopefully it'll change the sense scale and immersion of games in more meaningful ways later on.   

I don`t remember any game with this smooth of transition from a world to the other.

Heck on PS3 GT5 and GT6 to reload a race that you were already playing took a good 30s or more, and fighters on PS4 still in some cases take several seconds and that is same small scenario where you actually only need to reset health bar, special bar, timer and fighters positions.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

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Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
goopy20 said:

Pretty sure this would not be possible on 360/ps4, at least not without ruining the whole effect.

Obviously there's more to the ps5 than just the SSD, but we saw like 3 games where inter-dimensional travel seemed to be a core gameplay mechanic. Ratchet & Clank, Returnal and Dead Loop. My guess is that's because the developers went out of their way to use the SSD as some kind of tech-demo. If that'll make the gameplay better is another matter, but I believe SSD will end up being the biggest leap compared to current gen.

With early games, developers are typically just testing the water when it comes to new tech, but hopefully it'll change the sense scale and immersion of games in more meaningful ways later on.   

I don`t remember any game with this smooth of transition from a world to the other.

Heck on PS3 GT5 and GT6 to reload a race that you were already playing took a good 30s or more, and fighters on PS4 still in some cases take several seconds and that is same small scenario where you actually only need to reset health bar, special bar, timer and fighters positions.

Yeah it really looks like a game changer to me. Sure, maybe warping through levels doesn't make sense for most games, but the implementations can totally change the way we're used to experiencing games. IMO that will have much more impact that just some Ray Tracing reflections here and there.

Take Outer Worlds for example. It's not a bad game but you're supposed to feel like you flying a space ship, explore planets and are on some epic adventure. However you just get a loading screen when you fly to a different planet, then another one once you leave the ship and again a loading screen when you go into a building. It totally breaks the immersion, because the level design had to be cut in tiny hubs. But if it would be more like No Man's Sky with seamless transitions between landing on planets, and visiting amazingly detailed indoor environments, it would be something else.

There are rumours that ND's second team is doing a new sci-fi ip and it totally makes sense as that sounds like the perfect game to showcase the ps5 hardware. 



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goopy20 said:
DonFerrari said:

I don`t remember any game with this smooth of transition from a world to the other.

Heck on PS3 GT5 and GT6 to reload a race that you were already playing took a good 30s or more, and fighters on PS4 still in some cases take several seconds and that is same small scenario where you actually only need to reset health bar, special bar, timer and fighters positions.

Yeah it really looks like a game changer to me. Sure, maybe warping through levels doesn't make sense for most games, but the implementations can totally change the way we're used to experiencing games. IMO that will have much more impact that just some Ray Tracing reflections here and there.

Take Outer Worlds for example. It's not a bad game but you're supposed to feel like you flying a space ship, explore planets and are on some epic adventure. However you just get a loading screen when you fly to a different planet, then another one once you leave the ship and again a loading screen when you go into a building. It totally breaks the immersion, because the level design had to be cut in tiny hubs. But if it would be more like No Man's Sky with seamless transitions between landing on planets, and visiting amazingly detailed indoor environments, it would be something else.

There are rumours that ND's second team is doing a new sci-fi ip and it totally makes sense as that sounds like the perfect game to showcase the ps5 hardware. 

Yep world warping is just one of the possibilities of the fast I/O.

We could have something like a char growing 100x or even 1000x and the landscape change seamlesly. Same for microscopic. Also you could have FFXV car really working.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
goopy20 said:

Yeah it really looks like a game changer to me. Sure, maybe warping through levels doesn't make sense for most games, but the implementations can totally change the way we're used to experiencing games. IMO that will have much more impact that just some Ray Tracing reflections here and there.

Take Outer Worlds for example. It's not a bad game but you're supposed to feel like you flying a space ship, explore planets and are on some epic adventure. However you just get a loading screen when you fly to a different planet, then another one once you leave the ship and again a loading screen when you go into a building. It totally breaks the immersion, because the level design had to be cut in tiny hubs. But if it would be more like No Man's Sky with seamless transitions between landing on planets, and visiting amazingly detailed indoor environments, it would be something else.

There are rumours that ND's second team is doing a new sci-fi ip and it totally makes sense as that sounds like the perfect game to showcase the ps5 hardware. 

Yep world warping is just one of the possibilities of the fast I/O.

We could have something like a char growing 100x or even 1000x and the landscape change seamlesly. Same for microscopic. Also you could have FFXV car really working.

Yup, maybe we'll get an Ant-man game, that would be awesome! It's pretty exciting stuff and can't wait to see what developers will come up with.



Shifting worlds was done this gen in Titanfall 2 with the time device. Also Quantum Break with time. Among others across different gens. Hell on PSone you could shift worlds in Soul Reaver. Ratchet looked great but the world warping looked like an on rails sequence with little to no control over what was happening, basically a scripted sequence. I don’t see PC or XSX having any trouble running a sequence like that.

I didn’t notice any dimension jumping in Returnal or Deathloop. Just time mechanics and rewind when you die. Nothing various games didn’t do this gen, just now has better graphics. Super Time Force and Superhot come to mind, among others.



LudicrousSpeed said:
Shifting worlds was done this gen in Titanfall 2 with the time device. Also Quantum Break with time. Among others across different gens. Hell on PSone you could shift worlds in Soul Reaver. Ratchet looked great but the world warping looked like an on rails sequence with little to no control over what was happening, basically a scripted sequence. I don’t see PC or XSX having any trouble running a sequence like that.

I didn’t notice any dimension jumping in Returnal or Deathloop. Just time mechanics and rewind when you die. Nothing various games didn’t do this gen, just now has better graphics. Super Time Force and Superhot come to mind, among others.

True, but that was on a much smaller scale. No way you can swap that many assets on the fly like we saw with Ratchet & Clank on current gen consoles. It might not sound like a big deal with some of these early games, but rich, seamless worlds is a pretty awesome thing to look forward to. 



LudicrousSpeed said:
Shifting worlds was done this gen in Titanfall 2 with the time device. Also Quantum Break with time. Among others across different gens. Hell on PSone you could shift worlds in Soul Reaver. Ratchet looked great but the world warping looked like an on rails sequence with little to no control over what was happening, basically a scripted sequence. I don’t see PC or XSX having any trouble running a sequence like that.

I didn’t notice any dimension jumping in Returnal or Deathloop. Just time mechanics and rewind when you die. Nothing various games didn’t do this gen, just now has better graphics. Super Time Force and Superhot come to mind, among others.

Go back and look the example you gave on Soul Reaver.

It was a very simple distortion of polygon and change of color palette. It wasn`t transporting you to a whole different world in less than 1s.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."