Forums - Gaming Discussion - MS Executive says Devs will need to learn how to work around Slower SSD on XSX

padib said:
Pemalite said:

I don't actually disagree. But if you still want the absolute best sheer sequential throughput, you can achieve that on PC, but expect to pay out of the nose for it.

Obviously there is allot that goes on "behind the scenes" when it comes to storage and Sony has invested a shit ton into working on that... If anything that will mean the rest of the industry will take note and start resolving those issues going forth, it's a good thing for the entire industry.

@bold. I completely agree. I firmly believe that what Microsoft is doing with the Velicoty Architecture and what Sony is doing with the custom I/O design is going to be revolutionary for gaming. I'll be honest here and say that, the more I read about all this, the more I see that it's a game change, and true a bit of a big deal, but not just what Sony is doing, but also Microsoft. I hope that somehow the PC architecture and OS (esp. Windows which I use) will adapt to this change and make it real on PCs (without requiring overkill rigs) because with how MS is going forward and many games coming out exclusively on either PS or XB, with the same game available on PC, I am thinking of either waiting for this to happen in a few years, or just get a PC  to play some fighting games. For example, I want to play Street Fighter and Killer Instinct these days, I got an itch. Well, on the PC I can play both, and many cool new experiences like Halflife Alyx. In the past KI or SFV might have been exclusive to XB or PS, but things are looking good on the PC front. Perhaps I'll just get a decent PC to play this gen games, and upgrade later when this kind of architecture comes to PCs too one day hopefully. Because I have to say, I was blown away by the UE5 tech demo.

Either that, or I'll start making games myself like I've always dreamed of doing.

Out of curiosity, a rig that could compete with the kind of massive data streaming from SSD to CPU/GPU, what would it look like today? If you know, I'd be curious.

As Pema said raid SSD drives (althought there is already commercial drives over 7Gb/s) and RAM Drives. But the main problem as put by some dev (like Epic boss) is that the computer itself isn't programmed to take advantage of the fast I/O yet.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

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Captain_Yuri said:
You can also go to say bestbuy's website which I'd consider to be one of the most popular stores that casual consumers would go to in order to purchase a laptop, search by lowest price and find that majority of the laptops have SSD/Flash storage of some kind. Some do have hard drives but most that have hard drives also have SSD storage for the OS. Only a few that are new are hard drives only.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/all-laptops/pc-laptops/pcmcat247400050000.c?id=pcmcat247400050000&qp=condition_facet%3DCondition~New%5Esoldout_facet%3DAvailability~Exclude%20Sold%20Out%20Items&sp=%2Bcurrentprice%20skuidsaas

Well small SSD for OS really isn't the same thing as primary driver for gaming.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

DonFerrari said:
Captain_Yuri said:
You can also go to say bestbuy's website which I'd consider to be one of the most popular stores that casual consumers would go to in order to purchase a laptop, search by lowest price and find that majority of the laptops have SSD/Flash storage of some kind. Some do have hard drives but most that have hard drives also have SSD storage for the OS. Only a few that are new are hard drives only.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/all-laptops/pc-laptops/pcmcat247400050000.c?id=pcmcat247400050000&qp=condition_facet%3DCondition~New%5Esoldout_facet%3DAvailability~Exclude%20Sold%20Out%20Items&sp=%2Bcurrentprice%20skuidsaas

Well small SSD for OS really isn't the same thing as primary driver for gaming.

True and all of these SSDs aren't that fast as well. Specially eMMC ones which are just terrible. Not to mention some of these cheap arse laptops would be lucky to play Overwatch let alone something remotely close to next gen loll so the SSD's speed and etc wouldn't even be what would stop them from gaming.

But most cheap laptops do come with SSDs none the less.



             

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DonFerrari said:

As Pema said raid SSD drives (althought there is already commercial drives over 7Gb/s) and RAM Drives. But the main problem as put by some dev (like Epic boss) is that the computer itself isn't programmed to take advantage of the fast I/O yet.

Right. That's why I asked for an example, because from what I understood from the Linus video is that the limited I/O pipe in a PC (even Linux) the actual throughput of the AORUS Gen4 AIC Adaptor is not 15.5GBps but perhaps half of that.



Devs wont need to learn anything, they will do exactly what they have been doing since the beginning of the industry. Also if gamers are expecting majority of devs to take full advantage of the PS5's SSD than they might be sadly disappointed next gen, unless its exclusives.

Its the same thing every gen.
Sega - Blast Processing
Sony - Power of the Cell Processor
Xbox - Power of the Cloud
Sony - (Insert SSD brand moto here)

All these motos work and the technology actually exists however devs wont flock to it if it makes them the minority in the industry unless they are paid to do so eg: Exclusives. Cell was a very powerful CPU, leagues ahead of anything we have seen yet devs didn't jump onboard, Power of the Cloud showcases we can stream in majority of the game reducing load off the GPU etc and devs didn't jump on board, and now we have a super fast SSD light years ahead of anything else.. and most likely again, devs wont jump on board because again the industry isn't up to that standard yet. Gamers need to understand and accept this as all will come is disappointment when majority of 3rd party games releasing on PC, Xbox and Switch wont be utilising the full potential of the PS5's SSD.

Also Devs aren't exactly stupid either, if they can make games like Red Dead 2, TLOU 2, BOTW, Halo Infinite and Cyberpunk 2077 on basic HDD than its not going to matter as good games will always do the talking over technology.



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DonFerrari said:

As Pema said raid SSD drives (althought there is already commercial drives over 7Gb/s) and RAM Drives. But the main problem as put by some dev (like Epic boss) is that the computer itself isn't programmed to take advantage of the fast I/O yet.

In the case of a Ram drive, it completely bypasses the I/O that SSD's connect with, removing any of those technical limitations.

But a Ram drive is volatile unlike NAND which is non-volatile.

padib said:
DonFerrari said:

As Pema said raid SSD drives (althought there is already commercial drives over 7Gb/s) and RAM Drives. But the main problem as put by some dev (like Epic boss) is that the computer itself isn't programmed to take advantage of the fast I/O yet.

Right. That's why I asked for an example, because from what I understood from the Linus video is that the limited I/O pipe in a PC (even Linux) the actual throughput of the AORUS Gen4 AIC Adaptor is not 15.5GBps but perhaps half of that.

We need to keep in mind also that there is different types of "tasks". - It is all well and good to proclaim you are the "speed king" in sequential reads... But if your performance tanks doing a random write and your application requires lots of random writes, then sequential reads are actually a useless metric.

The messaging I am trying to build however across the forums is that...

People need to stop grabbing one number or terminology and ignoring the rest of the system... A console or PC is functionally a heap of different parts cohesively working together... And only using terms like "8GB GDDR5" or "Teraflops" or "SSD" without understanding their fundamental implications to rendering a game is doing a disservice to the amount of engineering that gets put into a console.

The Playstation 5 has so much more hardware behind the SSD and so much more to offer that we need to move past the SSD advertised feature and start asking the question of what those other components are going to mean for gaming? Because honestly that's not really happening... It honestly just feels like a pissing match to see who  has the bigger wang.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Honestly, people who expect any kind of major difference between how multiplatform games look and run between the PS5 and XSX will be disappointed. It will ALL come down to first-party studios to show us what are the benefits of both systems.



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Bonzinga said:
Devs wont need to learn anything, they will do exactly what they have been doing since the beginning of the industry. Also if gamers are expecting majority of devs to take full advantage of the PS5's SSD than they might be sadly disappointed next gen, unless its exclusives.

Its the same thing every gen.
Sega - Blast Processing
Sony - Power of the Cell Processor
Xbox - Power of the Cloud
Sony - (Insert SSD brand moto here)

All these motos work and the technology actually exists however devs wont flock to it if it makes them the minority in the industry unless they are paid to do so eg: Exclusives. Cell was a very powerful CPU, leagues ahead of anything we have seen yet devs didn't jump onboard, Power of the Cloud showcases we can stream in majority of the game reducing load off the GPU etc and devs didn't jump on board, and now we have a super fast SSD light years ahead of anything else.. and most likely again, devs wont jump on board because again the industry isn't up to that standard yet. Gamers need to understand and accept this as all will come is disappointment when majority of 3rd party games releasing on PC, Xbox and Switch wont be utilising the full potential of the PS5's SSD.

Also Devs aren't exactly stupid either, if they can make games like Red Dead 2, TLOU 2, BOTW, Halo Infinite and Cyberpunk 2077 on basic HDD than its not going to matter as good games will always do the talking over technology.

You clearly have no clue what you're talking about, but that's ok, the games will speak for themselves



setsunatenshi said:
Bonzinga said:
Devs wont need to learn anything, they will do exactly what they have been doing since the beginning of the industry. Also if gamers are expecting majority of devs to take full advantage of the PS5's SSD than they might be sadly disappointed next gen, unless its exclusives.

Its the same thing every gen.
Sega - Blast Processing
Sony - Power of the Cell Processor
Xbox - Power of the Cloud
Sony - (Insert SSD brand moto here)

All these motos work and the technology actually exists however devs wont flock to it if it makes them the minority in the industry unless they are paid to do so eg: Exclusives. Cell was a very powerful CPU, leagues ahead of anything we have seen yet devs didn't jump onboard, Power of the Cloud showcases we can stream in majority of the game reducing load off the GPU etc and devs didn't jump on board, and now we have a super fast SSD light years ahead of anything else.. and most likely again, devs wont jump on board because again the industry isn't up to that standard yet. Gamers need to understand and accept this as all will come is disappointment when majority of 3rd party games releasing on PC, Xbox and Switch wont be utilising the full potential of the PS5's SSD.

Also Devs aren't exactly stupid either, if they can make games like Red Dead 2, TLOU 2, BOTW, Halo Infinite and Cyberpunk 2077 on basic HDD than its not going to matter as good games will always do the talking over technology.

You clearly have no clue what you're talking about, but that's ok, the games will speak for themselves

Care to prove your point or is that your best argument?

You basically just agreed to my post by saying we let the games do the talking which has been the very point since platforms existed.



Bonzinga said:
setsunatenshi said:

You clearly have no clue what you're talking about, but that's ok, the games will speak for themselves

Care to prove your point or is that your best argument?

You basically just agreed to my post by saying we let the games do the talking which has been the very point since platforms existed.

You are talking out of ignorance comparing things that have no possible comparison.

Blast processing was a marketing buzzword used by Sega which simply had no application to games in the Mega Drive / Genesis.

Cell processor was a real thing, an extremely advanced architecture (multi core cpu) that was simply not adopted widely, it was highly efficient, but very challenging to code for. Subsequently, made the backwards compatibility with the PS3 extremely challenging. The de facto industry standard is x86, hence why the cell was discontinued.

Cloud gaming is real and both PS Now, Stadia, etc are proof of that. What was bullshit was some fanboys assumptions that you would parallelize compute tasks between local hardware and some other GPU sitting in an Azure dataroom somewhere. Having said that, apparently the new flight simulator will leverage streaming of the world map from the Azure servers, which is a really cool thing. It means the game is only playable with an internet connection, but hey, it is what it is.

The new PS5 SSD - I/O solution is also the real deal and a paradigm shift. Extremely fast access to game assets without requiring loading times, elevator rooms, walk and talk moments means you can actually develop new kinds of experiences. Flying in games? Yes please. No duplication of assets on the storage (even in multiple LoDs). Let's go. Instant loading of games, switching between games on the fly, no texture pop in on large open worlds... I could go on and on but it should be enough to make the point.

Look at the UE5 demo, look at the Spider Man demo showing the loadtimes and fast moving through the city and finally, feel free to watch today's games presentation. If you don't think these things are real benefits, then probably you're not a gamer.