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Forums - Gaming Discussion - MS Executive says Devs will need to learn how to work around Slower SSD on XSX

Bonzinga said:
setsunatenshi said:

You clearly have no clue what you're talking about, but that's ok, the games will speak for themselves

Care to prove your point or is that your best argument?

You basically just agreed to my post by saying we let the games do the talking which has been the very point since platforms existed.

DEvelopers have always flocked to Sony's platforms. The ps2 was a pain in the ass to develop for, in fact it was actually part of Sony's strategy so we would get better looking games once developers started wrapping their brain around the design. Still, every developer on the planet was supporting it with AAA exclusives. 

Obviously developers will always support pc or any other platform too if there's little extra work involved in bringing their games there. That's simply a matter of economics. But if they have to put too much time and resources in it, they might just focus on the platform that sells them the most copies. Same reason why loads of developers aren't bothered with doing Switch ports.



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setsunatenshi said:
Bonzinga said:

Care to prove your point or is that your best argument?

You basically just agreed to my post by saying we let the games do the talking which has been the very point since platforms existed.

You are talking out of ignorance comparing things that have no possible comparison.

Blast processing was a marketing buzzword used by Sega which simply had no application to games in the Mega Drive / Genesis.

Cell processor was a real thing, an extremely advanced architecture (multi core cpu) that was simply not adopted widely, it was highly efficient, but very challenging to code for. Subsequently, made the backwards compatibility with the PS3 extremely challenging. The de facto industry standard is x86, hence why the cell was discontinued.

Cloud gaming is real and both PS Now, Stadia, etc are proof of that. What was bullshit was some fanboys assumptions that you would parallelize compute tasks between local hardware and some other GPU sitting in an Azure dataroom somewhere. Having said that, apparently the new flight simulator will leverage streaming of the world map from the Azure servers, which is a really cool thing. It means the game is only playable with an internet connection, but hey, it is what it is.

The new PS5 SSD - I/O solution is also the real deal and a paradigm shift. Extremely fast access to game assets without requiring loading times, elevator rooms, walk and talk moments means you can actually develop new kinds of experiences. Flying in games? Yes please. No duplication of assets on the storage (even in multiple LoDs). Let's go. Instant loading of games, switching between games on the fly, no texture pop in on large open worlds... I could go on and on but it should be enough to make the point.

Look at the UE5 demo, look at the Spider Man demo showing the loadtimes and fast moving through the city and finally, feel free to watch today's games presentation. If you don't think these things are real benefits, then probably you're not a gamer.

Thanks for telling me things I already know. No where in my post did I say this technology didn't exist or worked. The point must of missed you. Its all buzz words regardless if it exists or not. Sony used the Cell Processor as their buzz word to get developers behind there technology exactly what they are doing with their new SSD technology. This scenario is exactly the same instead of Cell Processor (Insert new tech here). 

Xbox advertised Power of the Cloud which is also a thing that works and Sega's Genesis did have a CPU advantage over the SNES hence there Blast Processing terms to attract consumers. The Cell existed, Power of the Cloud existed, Blast processing actually existed, this new SSD is no different, it works, its a thing but like all new high tech, people don't just adopt straight away which is exactly my point. If people think the world is just going to stop using other means of hard drives just because Sony has invented a new super fast SSD than they will sadly be mistaken and disappointed. We will see it with their 1st party line up and exclusives but again, it doesn't matter if you have a super SSD, 12TF or 1000gigs of Ram, good devs will make good games on cave man technology and that's where the games will always do the talking, tech or no tech. 

Why don't Sony talk about the major CPU advantage in the PS5 over the PS4? This gens CPUs were the worst part of the consoles and the CPU boost is actually more exciting. That's just me. 



DonFerrari said:

At first I was going to give a full explanation, but Setsu already gave most of it for me so I'll mostly reinforce.

Sega - They trully had a faster CPU and it was used fully, the blast processing was real (and reason Sonic was able to be that fast) but since the system had worse GPU and some other parts it was generally weaker than SNES.

Sony - Cell Processor was really much stronger than the one in Xbox to the point that it covered for the weaker GPU and still had some juice left, the problem was that the type of specialization that CPU had wasn't the best fit for gaming programming at the time. Nowadays perhaps it would have done better since at the time most devs were threating it as a single core.

MS - Yes power of the cloud was total shenanigan since it neve made Xbox 3 times more powerful than without it, but still had some minute use. You can't use the power of the cloud to parallel processing because of the internet speed and latency. Today it is either totally generated on the HW or totally streamed (so you only need the bandwidth for video and input signal), with the exception of some heavy calculation that is "totally independent" of bandwidht and latency.

Sony again - SSD and I/O are real and implemented on the system if you want to believe it won't be used that is your prerrogative, but still would be false.

Ok so many people replied to me. 

Okay ill make this clear, I am not doubting the tech exists, I am saying its just another buzz word for a new generation to get people on board. Sure the tech exists, sure its amazing, but the lowest common denominator will always win. PS1 outsold the more advance N64, PS2 outsold the more advance Xbox and Gamecube, Wii outsold the more advance 360 and PS4 and now we have the Switch outselling the more advance PS4 and XB1. Weather the PS5 has amazing tech or not will not determine the outcome of the system. Price points, huge library of games and marketing is what sells consoles and yes this SSD in the PS5 is being used to leverage the marketing towards Sony as its the thing it has over its competitors but it wont matter as I mentioned to whatever the other guys name is. Good devs will make good games regardless if they are using a super fast SSD or having a 12TF GPU. I think Nintendo is a prime example of my point here.

goopy20 said:

DEvelopers have always flocked to Sony's platforms. The ps2 was a pain in the ass to develop for, in fact it was actually part of Sony's strategy so we would get better looking games once developers started wrapping their brain around the design. Still, every developer on the planet was supporting it with AAA exclusives. 

Obviously developers will always support pc or any other platform too if there's little extra work involved in bringing their games there. That's simply a matter of economics. But if they have to put too much time and resources in it, they might just focus on the platform that sells them the most copies. Same reason why loads of developers aren't bothered with doing Switch ports.

We didn't get better looking games on the PS2.



Bonzinga said:
setsunatenshi said:

You are talking out of ignorance comparing things that have no possible comparison.

Blast processing was a marketing buzzword used by Sega which simply had no application to games in the Mega Drive / Genesis.

Cell processor was a real thing, an extremely advanced architecture (multi core cpu) that was simply not adopted widely, it was highly efficient, but very challenging to code for. Subsequently, made the backwards compatibility with the PS3 extremely challenging. The de facto industry standard is x86, hence why the cell was discontinued.

Cloud gaming is real and both PS Now, Stadia, etc are proof of that. What was bullshit was some fanboys assumptions that you would parallelize compute tasks between local hardware and some other GPU sitting in an Azure dataroom somewhere. Having said that, apparently the new flight simulator will leverage streaming of the world map from the Azure servers, which is a really cool thing. It means the game is only playable with an internet connection, but hey, it is what it is.

The new PS5 SSD - I/O solution is also the real deal and a paradigm shift. Extremely fast access to game assets without requiring loading times, elevator rooms, walk and talk moments means you can actually develop new kinds of experiences. Flying in games? Yes please. No duplication of assets on the storage (even in multiple LoDs). Let's go. Instant loading of games, switching between games on the fly, no texture pop in on large open worlds... I could go on and on but it should be enough to make the point.

Look at the UE5 demo, look at the Spider Man demo showing the loadtimes and fast moving through the city and finally, feel free to watch today's games presentation. If you don't think these things are real benefits, then probably you're not a gamer.

Thanks for telling me things I already know. No where in my post did I say this technology didn't exist or worked. The point must of missed you. Its all buzz words regardless if it exists or not. Sony used the Cell Processor as their buzz word to get developers behind there technology exactly what they are doing with their new SSD technology. This scenario is exactly the same instead of Cell Processor (Insert new tech here). 

Xbox advertised Power of the Cloud which is also a thing that works and Sega's Genesis did have a CPU advantage over the SNES hence there Blast Processing terms to attract consumers. The Cell existed, Power of the Cloud existed, Blast processing actually existed, this new SSD is no different, it works, its a thing but like all new high tech, people don't just adopt straight away which is exactly my point. If people think the world is just going to stop using other means of hard drives just because Sony has invented a new super fast SSD than they will sadly be mistaken and disappointed. We will see it with their 1st party line up and exclusives but again, it doesn't matter if you have a super SSD, 12TF or 1000gigs of Ram, good devs will make good games on cave man technology and that's where the games will always do the talking, tech or no tech. 

Why don't Sony talk about the major CPU advantage in the PS5 over the PS4? This gens CPUs were the worst part of the consoles and the CPU boost is actually more exciting. That's just me. 

Except the "power of the cloud to make X1 3 or 4x stronger" never existed or were used. So you mixed buzz words (which implies that they are more like publicity stunts) with the technology and implementation.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Bonzinga said:
setsunatenshi said:

You are talking out of ignorance comparing things that have no possible comparison.

Blast processing was a marketing buzzword used by Sega which simply had no application to games in the Mega Drive / Genesis.

Cell processor was a real thing, an extremely advanced architecture (multi core cpu) that was simply not adopted widely, it was highly efficient, but very challenging to code for. Subsequently, made the backwards compatibility with the PS3 extremely challenging. The de facto industry standard is x86, hence why the cell was discontinued.

Cloud gaming is real and both PS Now, Stadia, etc are proof of that. What was bullshit was some fanboys assumptions that you would parallelize compute tasks between local hardware and some other GPU sitting in an Azure dataroom somewhere. Having said that, apparently the new flight simulator will leverage streaming of the world map from the Azure servers, which is a really cool thing. It means the game is only playable with an internet connection, but hey, it is what it is.

The new PS5 SSD - I/O solution is also the real deal and a paradigm shift. Extremely fast access to game assets without requiring loading times, elevator rooms, walk and talk moments means you can actually develop new kinds of experiences. Flying in games? Yes please. No duplication of assets on the storage (even in multiple LoDs). Let's go. Instant loading of games, switching between games on the fly, no texture pop in on large open worlds... I could go on and on but it should be enough to make the point.

Look at the UE5 demo, look at the Spider Man demo showing the loadtimes and fast moving through the city and finally, feel free to watch today's games presentation. If you don't think these things are real benefits, then probably you're not a gamer.

Thanks for telling me things I already know. No where in my post did I say this technology didn't exist or worked. The point must of missed you. Its all buzz words regardless if it exists or not. Sony used the Cell Processor as their buzz word to get developers behind there technology exactly what they are doing with their new SSD technology. This scenario is exactly the same instead of Cell Processor (Insert new tech here). 

Xbox advertised Power of the Cloud which is also a thing that works and Sega's Genesis did have a CPU advantage over the SNES hence there Blast Processing terms to attract consumers. The Cell existed, Power of the Cloud existed, Blast processing actually existed, this new SSD is no different, it works, its a thing but like all new high tech, people don't just adopt straight away which is exactly my point. If people think the world is just going to stop using other means of hard drives just because Sony has invented a new super fast SSD than they will sadly be mistaken and disappointed. We will see it with their 1st party line up and exclusives but again, it doesn't matter if you have a super SSD, 12TF or 1000gigs of Ram, good devs will make good games on cave man technology and that's where the games will always do the talking, tech or no tech. 

Why don't Sony talk about the major CPU advantage in the PS5 over the PS4? This gens CPUs were the worst part of the consoles and the CPU boost is actually more exciting. That's just me. 

You clearly conflated marketing speech with actual technologies that actually make (made) an impact. That's such a simplistic analysis that merits much more than my initial dismissal.

Maybe go watch the UE5 tech demo and the several independent Dev analysis to this technology before dismissing it out of ignorance of the topic. 90 minutes to go... tic toc



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Bonzinga said:

We didn't get better looking games on the PS2.

What?

Ridge racer 5 to GT4



The difference between the start and end of the ps2 generation is huge, which is because of getting to grips with the hardware over time. Just look at the difference between God of War and God of War 2.



Bonzinga said:
DonFerrari said:

At first I was going to give a full explanation, but Setsu already gave most of it for me so I'll mostly reinforce.

Sega - They trully had a faster CPU and it was used fully, the blast processing was real (and reason Sonic was able to be that fast) but since the system had worse GPU and some other parts it was generally weaker than SNES.

Sony - Cell Processor was really much stronger than the one in Xbox to the point that it covered for the weaker GPU and still had some juice left, the problem was that the type of specialization that CPU had wasn't the best fit for gaming programming at the time. Nowadays perhaps it would have done better since at the time most devs were threating it as a single core.

MS - Yes power of the cloud was total shenanigan since it neve made Xbox 3 times more powerful than without it, but still had some minute use. You can't use the power of the cloud to parallel processing because of the internet speed and latency. Today it is either totally generated on the HW or totally streamed (so you only need the bandwidth for video and input signal), with the exception of some heavy calculation that is "totally independent" of bandwidht and latency.

Sony again - SSD and I/O are real and implemented on the system if you want to believe it won't be used that is your prerrogative, but still would be false.

Ok so many people replied to me. 

Okay ill make this clear, I am not doubting the tech exists, I am saying its just another buzz word for a new generation to get people on board. Sure the tech exists, sure its amazing, but the lowest common denominator will always win. PS1 outsold the more advance N64, PS2 outsold the more advance Xbox and Gamecube, Wii outsold the more advance 360 and PS4 and now we have the Switch outselling the more advance PS4 and XB1. Weather the PS5 has amazing tech or not will not determine the outcome of the system. Price points, huge library of games and marketing is what sells consoles and yes this SSD in the PS5 is being used to leverage the marketing towards Sony as its the thing it has over its competitors but it wont matter as I mentioned to whatever the other guys name is. Good devs will make good games regardless if they are using a super fast SSD or having a 12TF GPU. I think Nintendo is a prime example of my point here.

goopy20 said:

DEvelopers have always flocked to Sony's platforms. The ps2 was a pain in the ass to develop for, in fact it was actually part of Sony's strategy so we would get better looking games once developers started wrapping their brain around the design. Still, every developer on the planet was supporting it with AAA exclusives. 

Obviously developers will always support pc or any other platform too if there's little extra work involved in bringing their games there. That's simply a matter of economics. But if they have to put too much time and resources in it, they might just focus on the platform that sells them the most copies. Same reason why loads of developers aren't bothered with doing Switch ports.

We didn't get better looking games on the PS2.

Of course we saw better looking ps2 games later on but that's not the point. Point being, developers are always looking to reach the best demographics for their game. RTS games for example historically sell for crap on anything but pc, nobody buys cod games on a Nintendo console and Animal Crossings probably wouldn't have sold over 10m copies if it was a Xbox or ps4 exclusive.

Sony also has an audience that clicks better with certain genres or ip's than any other platform, and I definitely see some of those going exclusive. Especially if it's too much work to alter core game design elements so they can run on other platforms too. 



SvennoJ said:
Bonzinga said:

We didn't get better looking games on the PS2.

What?

Ridge racer 5 to GT4



The difference between the start and end of the ps2 generation is huge, which is because of getting to grips with the hardware over time. Just look at the difference between God of War and God of War 2.

Sony themselves said that for PS1, 2 and 3 they choose a good architecture but not easy to develop or max out just to ensure the games would improve during the gen and people would be eager for the next game.

Sure that even with PS4 being a lot easier to dev for we still got improvements during the gen.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:

Sony themselves said that for PS1, 2 and 3 they choose a good architecture but not easy to develop or max out just to ensure the games would improve during the gen and people would be eager for the next game.

Sure that even with PS4 being a lot easier to dev for we still got improvements during the gen.

True, games always get better with new techniques over time. The difference was, on ps2 you ended at higher resolutions 1080i in GT4 (480x540 to be precise) while nowadays average resolution (and stability) goes down towards the end of the generation. First gen that 'needed' mid gen refreshes to keep the graphics hype going.

Next gen will be more traditional again while devs explore how to get the most out of the vast increase in I/O speed and 3D audio.



DonFerrari said:

Except the "power of the cloud to make X1 3 or 4x stronger" never existed or were used. So you mixed buzz words (which implies that they are more like publicity stunts) with the technology and implementation.

What turned out in the end was possibly due to MS's 180 that gen when they had to redesign there entire console. Remember when the console was meant to be always online with being DRM heavy? Obviously their strategy had to change so the cloud compute was never implemented. The tech does exists, it was just never put out to the consumers. No different to Sony's Power of the Cell.. which turned out the 360 was dishing out better ports with a less than capable CPU. Its all messy and its why we shouldn't be jumping on these platform holders laps just because they create new tech. Its exciting but let time tell, lets not assume results are immediate.

setsunatenshi said:

You clearly conflated marketing speech with actual technologies that actually make (made) an impact. That's such a simplistic analysis that merits much more than my initial dismissal.

Maybe go watch the UE5 tech demo and the several independent Dev analysis to this technology before dismissing it out of ignorance of the topic. 90 minutes to go... tic toc

No I didn't misunderstand marketing to what exists, because the super fast SSD in the PS5 actually exists, just like how Cell actually exists in the PS3 and held many promises. However I know how companies work and they will market and promise many things and even have others market it because everyone wants the same thing, a successful console launch. As I said, I am denying the tech, but we see this every generation. There is always something new to keep the customers interested and this time it is the super fast SSD.

I have seen the UE5 demo, and Tech demos in general don't impress me as its only a tech demo and worse, a tech demo of a game that does not exist.. also only being rendered at 1440p and at 30fps. I wont deny it looked good for what it showed but I treat tech demos like I treat in-engine cutscenes. Just because you can control the main character doesn't impress me, might earn more credit if it was an actual game coming out we can actually play.

SvennoJ said:

What?

Ridge racer 5 to GT4



The difference between the start and end of the ps2 generation is huge, which is because of getting to grips with the hardware over time. Just look at the difference between God of War and God of War 2.

Of course games will look better later on in the generation, but it had nothing to do with Sony making it super hard to develop for. The PS2 was considered one of the weakest systems of that era by big margins. What we see with the improved visuals on the PS2 is the exact same with just about every console in existence.

Last edited by Bonzinga - on 11 June 2020