By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Microsoft - Xbox Series X's cross-gen approach is robbing players of the next-gen thrill

DonFerrari on 18 May 2020
Captain_Yuri said:

DF also did a comparison with Star Citizen which has a more one to one example. Remember, the hard drives here are on RAID which makes them a lot faster than the usual hard drive speeds. Also don't forget that this game isn't using any of the technologies and optimizations that will be available next gen.

Skip to 3:35

This also helps on the question that it doesn't compute or shrink GPU/CPU gap, but interfere in the performance in a way that may shrink a little the end result not only loading times.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Around the Network
goopy20 on 18 May 2020
Conina said:
goopy20 said:

If we look at current gen, I think BOTW actually gives a good idea on how that can change gameplay mechanics. 

BOTW, where streaming/loading speeds of 0.060 GB/s are good enough.

Well BOTW obviously looks a bit simplistic, but I'm guessing it would look helluva lot better on next gen consoles capable of streaming 8k movie quality assets and rendering limitless geometry. However, the overall gameplay design, sense of scale and freedom you have in BOTW is pretty amazing.

In any case. I think what we'll see next gen is more of a blend of what typically would be different genres. Before, developers always had to make compromises depending on what type of game they're making. If it's a open world game, the environments couldn't have the same level of detail as in a story driven linear game like Uncharted, and highly detailed story driven games couldn't be truly open world. Next gen, developers probably don't have to make such compromises, giving them the creative freedom to merge both. 

Take GOW for example. It was always about epic scale and fighting gigantic monsters, but when they decided to make it a 3rd person game, they probably couldn't have that sense of scale and boss fights on the back of titans anymore. Therefore, they had to make it a much slower paced game instead. Who knows but it wouldn't surprise me if GOW2 on the ps5 will go back to its roots and it will be a 3rd person open world game with the same sense of scale and giant boss fights as the older GOW games. We'll see but SSD sounds like one of the most promising things we've seen in new consoles for a long, long time. And something that could completely change level and world design as we know it. 

Last edited by goopy20 - on 18 May 2020

Jizz_Beard_thePirate on 18 May 2020
DonFerrari said:
Captain_Yuri said:

DF also did a comparison with Star Citizen which has a more one to one example. Remember, the hard drives here are on RAID which makes them a lot faster than the usual hard drive speeds. Also don't forget that this game isn't using any of the technologies and optimizations that will be available next gen.

Skip to 3:35

This also helps on the question that it doesn't compute or shrink GPU/CPU gap, but interfere in the performance in a way that may shrink a little the end result not only loading times.

Yea pretty much. A lot of the times, the GPU renders the frame and then has to wait for the hard drive to catch up. Game devs are really good at masking a lot of the issues with hard drives and building games/engines around them but with the inclusion of killer SSDs, they can focus less on masking issues and focus more on everything else. When next gen comes around and we have engines and games being developed around SSDs, it's really going to push boundaries!



                  

PC Specs: CPU: 7800X3D || GPU: Strix 4090 || RAM: 32GB DDR5 6000 || Main SSD: WD 2TB SN850

DonFerrari on 18 May 2020
Captain_Yuri said:
DonFerrari said:

This also helps on the question that it doesn't compute or shrink GPU/CPU gap, but interfere in the performance in a way that may shrink a little the end result not only loading times.

Yea pretty much. A lot of the times, the GPU renders the frame and then has to wait for the hard drive to catch up. Game devs are really good at masking a lot of the issues with hard drives and building games/engines around them but with the inclusion of killer SSDs, they can focus less on masking issues and focus more on everything else. When next gen comes around and we have engines and games being developed around SSDs, it's really going to push boundaries!

Yep. The biggest point on Cerny presentation was exactly that this will make development a lot easier and enable developers to go above what they have done so far, removing a lot of roadblocks.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Mr Puggsly on 18 May 2020
hinch said:
Mr Puggsly said:

It depends on what is being cut. Its possible to fundamentally make the same game on a different engine with inferior graphics.

If Infamous:SS and FFXV were only capable of moving that fast, perhaps the limitations is actually on the engine. Better specs would simply brute force the limitations of the engine.

If the only thing about a game that feels next gen is the graphics, then maybe its not really a next gen experience? Again, I feel like game design itself has been pretty stagnant for over a decade.

Might have something to do with the potato Jaguar CPU's in the PS4/Xbox One. I mean, they are less powerful than the CELL found in the PS3. Also slow AF 2.5" harddrives doesn't help.

It seems the Cell CPU was far more capable in theory. In practice, developers often struggled with it. So even if Jaguar CPUs are technically inferior, developers did a better job with them.

I genuinely don't believe storage medium was impacting game design much if at all. The gen prior, games were still loading off discs and fundamentally game design remained much the same.

More importantly, RAM and CPU are crucial for loading/streaming speeds as well. For example, we were already seeing significantly faster load times on PC even on HDDs. 9th gen isn't speeding up loading/stream just by using SSDs, the RAM and CPU upgrades are doing much of the work.



Recently Completed: 
River City: Rival Showdown for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

Around the Network
DonFerrari on 18 May 2020
Mr Puggsly said:
hinch said:

Might have something to do with the potato Jaguar CPU's in the PS4/Xbox One. I mean, they are less powerful than the CELL found in the PS3. Also slow AF 2.5" harddrives doesn't help.

It seems the Cell CPU was far more capable in theory. In practice, developers often struggled with it. So even if Jaguar CPUs are technically inferior, developers did a better job with them.

I genuinely don't believe storage medium was impacting game design much if at all. The gen prior, games were still loading off discs and fundamentally game design remained much the same.

More importantly, RAM and CPU are crucial for loading/streaming speeds as well. For example, we were already seeing significantly faster load times on PC even on HDDs. 9th gen isn't speeding up loading/stream just by using SSDs, the RAM and CPU upgrades are doing much of the work.

Ever since we entered disc on PS1 we had a major limitation on the development due to the storage speed. I don't know why you choose to ignore all the evidence showing it.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Mr Puggsly on 18 May 2020
DonFerrari said:
Mr Puggsly said:

It depends on what is being cut. Its possible to fundamentally make the same game on a different engine with inferior graphics.

If Infamous:SS and FFXV were only capable of moving that fast, perhaps the limitations is actually on the engine. Better specs would simply brute force the limitations of the engine.

If the only thing about a game that feels next gen is the graphics, then maybe its not really a next gen experience? Again, I feel like game design itself has been pretty stagnant for over a decade.

Seems like you just want to ignore the presentation gave by Cerny and the ones done by GG, SE and others during the gen.

The technology was limitating the game development. Sure some of that would stay the same even if the constrains didn't exist because that was how they wanted the game to be, but several others would be different. Because the game was like that because of the limitations.

I'm not just making a blanket statement, I'm looking at individual games.

We were looking at titles like Ryse, Killzone:SF and Infamous:SS in particular. The goalpost seems to be moving to all games could work on 7th gen.

Anyway, I think we agree some constraints are just due to typical game design. When developers get better specs to work with, much of it often just goes to better presentation. I mean the UE5 wasn't boasting about a new gameplay experiences per se, it was showing us how dank rocks look with advanced lighting effects.



Recently Completed: 
River City: Rival Showdown for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

Mr Puggsly on 18 May 2020
DonFerrari said:
Mr Puggsly said:

It seems the Cell CPU was far more capable in theory. In practice, developers often struggled with it. So even if Jaguar CPUs are technically inferior, developers did a better job with them.

I genuinely don't believe storage medium was impacting game design much if at all. The gen prior, games were still loading off discs and fundamentally game design remained much the same.

More importantly, RAM and CPU are crucial for loading/streaming speeds as well. For example, we were already seeing significantly faster load times on PC even on HDDs. 9th gen isn't speeding up loading/stream just by using SSDs, the RAM and CPU upgrades are doing much of the work.

Ever since we entered disc on PS1 we had a major limitation on the development due to the storage speed. I don't know why you choose to ignore all the evidence showing it.

Great job, that's not what I was arguing.

I just don't think storage medium bottle neck was a significant barrier that limited 8th gen game design.



Recently Completed: 
River City: Rival Showdown for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

goopy20 on 18 May 2020
Mr Puggsly said:
DonFerrari said:

Seems like you just want to ignore the presentation gave by Cerny and the ones done by GG, SE and others during the gen.

The technology was limitating the game development. Sure some of that would stay the same even if the constrains didn't exist because that was how they wanted the game to be, but several others would be different. Because the game was like that because of the limitations.

I'm not just making a blanket statement, I'm looking at individual games.

We were looking at titles like Ryse, Killzone:SF and Infamous:SS in particular. The goalpost seems to be moving to all games could work on 7th gen.

Anyway, I think we agree some constraints are just due to typical game design. When developers get better specs to work with, much of it often just goes to better presentation. I mean the UE5 wasn't boasting about a new gameplay experiences per se, it was showing us how dank rocks look with advanced lighting effects.

You were expecting new gameplay experiences from an engine tech demo? 



DonFerrari on 18 May 2020
Mr Puggsly said:
DonFerrari said:

Seems like you just want to ignore the presentation gave by Cerny and the ones done by GG, SE and others during the gen.

The technology was limitating the game development. Sure some of that would stay the same even if the constrains didn't exist because that was how they wanted the game to be, but several others would be different. Because the game was like that because of the limitations.

I'm not just making a blanket statement, I'm looking at individual games.

We were looking at titles like Ryse, Killzone:SF and Infamous:SS in particular. The goalpost seems to be moving to all games could work on 7th gen.

Anyway, I think we agree some constraints are just due to typical game design. When developers get better specs to work with, much of it often just goes to better presentation. I mean the UE5 wasn't boasting about a new gameplay experiences per se, it was showing us how dank rocks look with advanced lighting effects.

Those games couldn't be done on 7th gen Hardware without major cuts on them, you just claim otherwise and show as evidence that other games were done on the previous gen HW and you think they aren't inferior. That is basically a baseless claim.

You are wrong. The game design receive constraints because of the HW not the other way around. And sure the UE5 tech demo didn't show a new gameplay experience because it is a tool being showed not a game.

Mr Puggsly said:
DonFerrari said:

Ever since we entered disc on PS1 we had a major limitation on the development due to the storage speed. I don't know why you choose to ignore all the evidence showing it.

Great job, that's not what I was arguing.

I just don't think storage medium bottle neck was a significant barrier that limited 8th gen game design.

And your thinking is wrong and disproven by basically all devs that talked about the storage being a constrain in several different stances that you are just chosing to ignore.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."