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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Xbox Series X's cross-gen approach is robbing players of the next-gen thrill

ArchangelMadzz said:
Mr Puggsly said:

I'm not drinking the SSD Kool Aid yet. At the very least I hope it does speed up load times.

I believe Uncharted had slow sections because that was the game they designed. Walking and talking is just a big part of that series.

Hence, I don't think the average game design is necessarily going to change. Many games are designed the way they are to tell a story. Games focused on telling a story aren't necessarily focused on large environments that have you flying across the map quickly.

Everyone who's involved in game development is very excited about the SSD's in the XSX and the PS5. It would be difficult to get you on board, that's not what I'm trying to do, the only thing I can say is that storage speed has fundamentally hindered game development for many years.

Again, I know you've said about uncharted but a lot of these games have many ways that they hide loading by slowing you down. Whether it's unlocking doors mechanics, to squeezing through small cave openings very slowly so that the game can load the next section. Spiderman's web slinging speed and many more subtle ways, these would not be needed anymore. 

Cross gen titles would still need these mechanics in because of the HDD's on PS4P and XB1X, and that includes slow, story based games with their level design. A game specifically designed to run on a 2.4GB/s SSD would almost need to be redone to function on a HDD. Cross gen titles will load much quicker but there won't be any of these major changes until games are built from the ground up for superfast SSD's. 

Time will only tell, but even a game like Horizon: Zero Dawn, built specifically for a 5.5GB/s SSD would work fundamentally different to what it turned out to be. 

Mr Puggsly said:

Again, the focus has become presentation because we are admitting the actual game design was underwhelming.

I also feel more developers are now building their games to scale between specs better. Hence, visual disparity between cross gen games should be more significant this time than 2013. I could be wrong, but its what I expect.

Another example, if we get Control on 9th gen consoles that would be a noticeable upgrade over the 8th gen versions simply for using existing assets, effects found on PC. 60 fps would also show a huge disparity.

I'm confused, are you suggesting Resogun wouldn't work on PS3?

Whoops correction:I remember reading a piece of PR about how much GPU power Resogun uses and that it can't be doneon PS3. But they did manage to port it, apparently my 2013 memory isn't amazing.

I genuinely don't believe the storage speed has a been a significant hindrance, at least when compared to other specs. But I'm curious to see how developers do use SSD tech.

Again, I feel Uncharted and even God of War are purposely slow paced often for story telling reasons. Its not always for loading.

Spiderman already web slings pretty fast, I'm not sure exactly how fast he needs to go before it just gets ridiculous. Even on 7th gen consoles we had open world games with cars driving faster than Spiderman was swinging. Again, I don't think better specs necessarily changes basic game design.

I wouldn't be surprised of somebody said Resogun was only possible on PS4. I wouldn't have believed it though.



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goopy20 said:

If we look at current gen, I think BOTW actually gives a good idea on how that can change gameplay mechanics. 

BOTW, where streaming/loading speeds of 0.060 GB/s are good enough.



Mr Puggsly said:
ArchangelMadzz said:

Everyone who's involved in game development is very excited about the SSD's in the XSX and the PS5. It would be difficult to get you on board, that's not what I'm trying to do, the only thing I can say is that storage speed has fundamentally hindered game development for many years.

Again, I know you've said about uncharted but a lot of these games have many ways that they hide loading by slowing you down. Whether it's unlocking doors mechanics, to squeezing through small cave openings very slowly so that the game can load the next section. Spiderman's web slinging speed and many more subtle ways, these would not be needed anymore. 

Cross gen titles would still need these mechanics in because of the HDD's on PS4P and XB1X, and that includes slow, story based games with their level design. A game specifically designed to run on a 2.4GB/s SSD would almost need to be redone to function on a HDD. Cross gen titles will load much quicker but there won't be any of these major changes until games are built from the ground up for superfast SSD's. 

Time will only tell, but even a game like Horizon: Zero Dawn, built specifically for a 5.5GB/s SSD would work fundamentally different to what it turned out to be. 

Whoops correction:I remember reading a piece of PR about how much GPU power Resogun uses and that it can't be doneon PS3. But they did manage to port it, apparently my 2013 memory isn't amazing.

I genuinely don't believe the storage speed has a been a significant hindrance, at least when compared to other specs. But I'm curious to see how developers do use SSD tech.

Again, I feel Uncharted and even God of War are purposely slow paced often for story telling reasons. Its not always for loading.

Spiderman already web slings pretty fast, I'm not sure exactly how fast he needs to go before it just gets ridiculous. Even on 7th gen consoles we had open world games with cars driving faster than Spiderman was swinging. Again, I don't think better specs necessarily changes basic game design.

I wouldn't be surprised of somebody said Resogun was only possible on PS4. I wouldn't have believed it though.

Spiderman's not gonna be going 300MPH, even though he can, the idea is the chains being taken off. You have creative freedom which is what a developer wants. If a developer wants a long drawn out system of lifting eachother over a fence then they can, if they want an annoying lock pick mechanism they can, but the big point is that they don't have to now.

Same with spiderman, if they want him to sling at 60Mph then they can because they want to, not because they have to, if they decide they want 85MPH or 90MPH they can do that. 

It's all about the creative freedom it gives. Developers had to make certain types of games in similar ways because of this, now devs that want to do things differently, can do things differently. 


You mentioned GOW, a game that actually had no visible loading screens, it's no coincidence that it's a slow game. Now they probably wanted it to be slow, it worked well for them. But there was a lot of work involved to get this game to be playable from beginning to end with no loading screens. All the man hours that would've taken... is now gone. (At least mostly)



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ArchangelMadzz said:
Mr Puggsly said:

I'm not drinking the SSD Kool Aid yet. At the very least I hope it does speed up load times.

I believe Uncharted had slow sections because that was the game they designed. Walking and talking is just a big part of that series.

Hence, I don't think the average game design is necessarily going to change. Many games are designed the way they are to tell a story. Games focused on telling a story aren't necessarily focused on large environments that have you flying across the map quickly.

Everyone who's involved in game development is very excited about the SSD's in the XSX and the PS5. It would be difficult to get you on board, that's not what I'm trying to do, the only thing I can say is that storage speed has fundamentally hindered game development for many years.

Again, I know you've said about uncharted but a lot of these games have many ways that they hide loading by slowing you down. Whether it's unlocking doors mechanics, to squeezing through small cave openings very slowly so that the game can load the next section. Spiderman's web slinging speed and many more subtle ways, these would not be needed anymore. 

Cross gen titles would still need these mechanics in because of the HDD's on PS4P and XB1X, and that includes slow, story based games with their level design. A game specifically designed to run on a 2.4GB/s SSD would almost need to be redone to function on a HDD. Cross gen titles will load much quicker but there won't be any of these major changes until games are built from the ground up for superfast SSD's. 

Time will only tell, but even a game like Horizon: Zero Dawn, built specifically for a 5.5GB/s SSD would work fundamentally different to what it turned out to be. 

Mr Puggsly said:

Again, the focus has become presentation because we are admitting the actual game design was underwhelming.

I also feel more developers are now building their games to scale between specs better. Hence, visual disparity between cross gen games should be more significant this time than 2013. I could be wrong, but its what I expect.

Another example, if we get Control on 9th gen consoles that would be a noticeable upgrade over the 8th gen versions simply for using existing assets, effects found on PC. 60 fps would also show a huge disparity.

I'm confused, are you suggesting Resogun wouldn't work on PS3?

Whoops correction:I remember reading a piece of PR about how much GPU power Resogun uses and that it can't be doneon PS3. But they did manage to port it, apparently my 2013 memory isn't amazing. 



Porting is almost always possible if you cut enough and make basically a different game.

About design limitations, Infamous SS they were very clear that the max speed you could travel was determined by the HDD, same with the slow pace car on FF XV. But we will see people saying they could work on PS3 that would be an even worse situation "if they cut back enough" "so it isn't a real next-gen experience".



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

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ArchangelMadzz said:
Mr Puggsly said:

I genuinely don't believe the storage speed has a been a significant hindrance, at least when compared to other specs. But I'm curious to see how developers do use SSD tech.

Again, I feel Uncharted and even God of War are purposely slow paced often for story telling reasons. Its not always for loading.

Spiderman already web slings pretty fast, I'm not sure exactly how fast he needs to go before it just gets ridiculous. Even on 7th gen consoles we had open world games with cars driving faster than Spiderman was swinging. Again, I don't think better specs necessarily changes basic game design.

I wouldn't be surprised of somebody said Resogun was only possible on PS4. I wouldn't have believed it though.

Spiderman's not gonna be going 300MPH, even though he can, the idea is the chains being taken off. You have creative freedom which is what a developer wants. If a developer wants a long drawn out system of lifting eachother over a fence then they can, if they want an annoying lock pick mechanism they can, but the big point is that they don't have to now.

Same with spiderman, if they want him to sling at 60Mph then they can because they want to, not because they have to, if they decide they want 85MPH or 90MPH they can do that. 

It's all about the creative freedom it gives. Developers had to make certain types of games in similar ways because of this, now devs that want to do things differently, can do things differently. 


You mentioned GOW, a game that actually had no visible loading screens, it's no coincidence that it's a slow game. Now they probably wanted it to be slow, it worked well for them. But there was a lot of work involved to get this game to be playable from beginning to end with no loading screens. All the man hours that would've taken... is now gone. (At least mostly)

Right, now we are on the same page. The new specs will allow more freedom, I agree on this. The thing is game design doesn't necessarily change with better specs, instead those specs often just improve graphics while game design has remained mostly the same for over a decade now.

God of War wasn't always slow paced just to hide loading screen, that's also just how the game was designed. The character are slowly exploring fairly linear paths and talking for much of the game.

I've also discussed God of War wasn't just linear paths because that's all the PS4 could handle. That was just how the game was designed.



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DonFerrari said:

Porting is almost always possible if you cut enough and make basically a different game.

About design limitations, Infamous SS they were very clear that the max speed you could travel was determined by the HDD, same with the slow pace car on FF XV. But we will see people saying they could work on PS3 that would be an even worse situation "if they cut back enough" "so it isn't a real next-gen experience".

It depends on what is being cut. Its possible to fundamentally make the same game on a different engine with inferior graphics.

If Infamous:SS and FFXV were only capable of moving that fast, perhaps the limitations is actually on the engine. Better specs would simply brute force the limitations of the engine.

If the only thing about a game that feels next gen is the graphics, then maybe its not really a next gen experience? Again, I feel like game design itself has been pretty stagnant for over a decade.



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Mr Puggsly said:
DonFerrari said:

Porting is almost always possible if you cut enough and make basically a different game.

About design limitations, Infamous SS they were very clear that the max speed you could travel was determined by the HDD, same with the slow pace car on FF XV. But we will see people saying they could work on PS3 that would be an even worse situation "if they cut back enough" "so it isn't a real next-gen experience".

It depends on what is being cut. Its possible to fundamentally make the same game on a different engine with inferior graphics.

If Infamous:SS and FFXV were only capable of moving that fast, perhaps the limitations is actually on the engine. Better specs would simply brute force the limitations of the engine.

If the only thing about a game that feels next gen is the graphics, then maybe its not really a next gen experience? Again, I feel like game design itself has been pretty stagnant for over a decade.

Might have something to do with the potato Jaguar CPU's in the PS4/Xbox One. I mean, they are less powerful than the CELL found in the PS3. Also slow AF 2.5" harddrives doesn't help.



Mr Puggsly said:
DonFerrari said:

Porting is almost always possible if you cut enough and make basically a different game.

About design limitations, Infamous SS they were very clear that the max speed you could travel was determined by the HDD, same with the slow pace car on FF XV. But we will see people saying they could work on PS3 that would be an even worse situation "if they cut back enough" "so it isn't a real next-gen experience".

It depends on what is being cut. Its possible to fundamentally make the same game on a different engine with inferior graphics.

If Infamous:SS and FFXV were only capable of moving that fast, perhaps the limitations is actually on the engine. Better specs would simply brute force the limitations of the engine.

If the only thing about a game that feels next gen is the graphics, then maybe its not really a next gen experience? Again, I feel like game design itself has been pretty stagnant for over a decade.

Seems like you just want to ignore the presentation gave by Cerny and the ones done by GG, SE and others during the gen.

The technology was limitating the game development. Sure some of that would stay the same even if the constrains didn't exist because that was how they wanted the game to be, but several others would be different. Because the game was like that because of the limitations.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

I think it's about time we use an example of a modern game that actually does showcase a measurable advantage of having a SSD over Hard Drive which of course is none other than Star Citizen.

Now remember that this was back in 2018 and Starcitizen is not finished so it does have other problems but this does give a pretty good example of SSD vs Hard Drives... I am sure there are other videos out the as well.

Hard Drive 13 FPS:

SSD 23 FPS:

I know it's not one to one but if you watch the video. The SSD performs a lot better inside the station compared to the hard drive.

Last edited by Jizz_Beard_thePirate - on 18 May 2020

                  

PC Specs: CPU: 7800X3D || GPU: Strix 4090 || RAM: 32GB DDR5 6000 || Main SSD: WD 2TB SN850

DF also did a comparison with Star Citizen which has a more one to one example. Remember, the hard drives here are on RAID which makes them a lot faster than the usual hard drive speeds. Also don't forget that this game isn't using any of the technologies and optimizations that will be available next gen.

Skip to 3:35

Last edited by Jizz_Beard_thePirate - on 18 May 2020

                  

PC Specs: CPU: 7800X3D || GPU: Strix 4090 || RAM: 32GB DDR5 6000 || Main SSD: WD 2TB SN850