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Forums - Sony Discussion - Unreal Engine 5 Announced + PS5 Demo

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CGI-Quality said:

"Neither is going to end up being wrong, because the two devices don’t work exactly the same and will have their internals leveraged for game development (as consoles generally do). So, no there won't be "just a bunch of bandwith unused/wasted". In either case."

I hope you're right about this part. Although I find it weird that you seem to have more issue with the PS5 part of the statement.

"I'd understand the bitchin' if they weren't so advanced and/or simply numbers on a page."

This is literally the first time I mention this topic, so I fail to see how that can be considered "bitching."

"And, yeah, no shit the SSDs are largely talked about. Their potential and the fact that no consumer-grade part (such as the PS5's SSD) exists like them for purchase (yet) makes it worth discussing. These aren't teraflops."

Now I have an issue with this statement; Teraflops is basically the GPU processing power. And I can totally understand that talking about TFs from different arquitectures is pointless, like trying to compare AMD to Nvidia cards, or cards from the RTX line to the GTX line; but when we are talking about GPUs from the same line, the GPU with more TFs will ALWAYS perform better than the one with less. In fact, I'm willing to bet my life that when AMD releases their next RDNA 2 graphics cards, the one with more teraflops will be the best performer one. So I totally fail to see how storage speed is more worthy to talk about than GPU processing power.



CGI-Quality said:
chakkra said:

"Neither is going to end up being wrong, because the two devices don’t work exactly the same and will have their internals leveraged for game development (as consoles generally do). So, no there won't be "just a bunch of bandwith unused/wasted". In either case."

I hope you're right about this part. Although I find it weird that you seem to have more issue with the PS5 part of the statement.

"I'd understand the bitchin' if they weren't so advanced and/or simply numbers on a page."

This is literally the first time I mention this topic, so I fail to see how that can be considered "bitching."

"And, yeah, no shit the SSDs are largely talked about. Their potential and the fact that no consumer-grade part (such as the PS5's SSD) exists like them for purchase (yet) makes it worth discussing. These aren't teraflops."

Now I have an issue with this statement; Teraflops is basically the GPU processing power. And I can totally understand that talking about TFs from different arquitectures is pointless, like trying to compare AMD to Nvidia cards, or cards from the RTX line to the GTX line; but when we are talking about GPUs from the same line, the GPU with more TFs will ALWAYS perform better than the one with less. In fact, I'm willing to bet my life that when AMD releases their next RDNA 2 graphics cards, the one with more teraflops will be the best performer one. So I totally fail to see how storage speed is more worthy to talk about than GPU processing power.

Only "issue" I had was you trying to minimize the impact of the upcoming SSDs (yes, both) and "bitchin" was the general term I used. It's not the end of the world.

In any event, floating point operations/sec. (MEGA/GIGA/TERA/PETA, etc.) are a theoretical measure of power, not "basically processing power". No matter what architecture types are discussed, flops will remain theoretical and never tell the real story. Otherwise, a 2080Ti should not be able to keep up with a TITAN RTX in any capacity (given it is 3000 GIGAflops behind it — a bigger difference than those in these upcoming consoles). So, yes, they're meaningless for serious discussion, storage speed is not.

Want to know what a GPU can do? Look at its...

  1. RAM Amount/Speed/Type
  2. Shader Cores (CUDA, for example)
  3. Clock Speed

The gap between 2080 TI and RTX Titan is 14.2 to 16.3 TFs, which is a %15 difference, and Titan still manages to consistently over perform it. So that actually helps to prove my statement that more TFs within the same arquitecture equals more performance.

And the only reason I'm "minimizing" the SSD solutions is because plenty of people are acting like that is the only thing that matters, and it's not the only thing nor the most important. I mean, the PS5 SSD wouldn't have been able to stream all those billions of polygons on the demo if said polygons hadn't been processed by the GPU in the first place; I mean if the PS5's GPU/CPU had been much slower, the SSD would have had to stand there waiting for the data to be processed. Dont you agree?

To put it simply, in one hand we have the CPU/GPU combo processing/generating the data, and in the other we have the RAM/SSD storing and streaming said data. The big question is at what point do the RAM/SSD become a bottleneck for the GPU/CPU or at what point is the RAM/SSD so fast that the GPU/CPU cannot keep up with them and fully utilize their speed.

Which brings me back to my point: MS concluded that their SSD solution provided enough speed for the amount of data that their GPU/CPU can process, while Sony obviously got to a different conclusion.

So yeah, I think one of them might end up being wrong in their approach. What I don't understand is why you seem so upset about the possibility of Sony being wrong. I mean, the worst that could happen is that the PS5 could end up with bandwith to spare. I see no harm there.



twintail said:
Captain_Yuri said:

I would like to see a list of how many since I am curious. Usually it's either Ps4 and Xbox exclusive or Ps4 and PC exclusive or maybe even Ps4 and Switch exclusive. And sometimes, it's ps4 timed exclusive which then eventually gets ported.

And yea, we will see how it goes. I have a feeling that while the SSD is gonna be a game changer in game design and etc, the GPU's capabilities specially at high resolutions will put a limit to it's usefulness outside of first party games. Could be wrong though of course since it's all speculation.

I wasn't considering PC, sorry.

No problem. I was just wondering myself.



                  

PC Specs: CPU: 7800X3D || GPU: Strix 4090 || RAM: 32GB DDR5 6000 || Main SSD: WD 2TB SN850

CGI-Quality said:
chakkra said:

The gap between 2080 TI and RTX Titan is 14.2 to 16.3 TFs, which is a %15 difference, and Titan still manages to consistently over perform it. So that actually helps to prove my statement that more TFs within the same arquitecture equals more performance.

So yeah, I think one of them might end up being wrong in their approach. What I don't understand is why you seem so upset about the possibility of Sony being wrong. I mean, the worst that could happen is that the PS5 could end up with bandwith to spare. I see no harm there.

The flops difference between the Founders Edition 2080Ti and TITAN RTX is exactly as I stated (13.5/16.3 — you got your info from Gamesradar, who is incorrect), but even if I were to humor the higher number, it still doesn't really kill the point. And I stand by it that i have not seen anyone saying the SSDs are either the only things that matter nor the most important. No, not implying it either. People are arguing that they play a seriously important role in the upcoming generation (and they are absolutely correct).

Anyway, in regards to flops, as a tech guy, used to working with hardware on a more surgical basis, I'm vocal about them for a reason. On top of that, I listen closely to other informed tech guys, such as techradar, who state...

"So teraflops are a convenient and all-encompassing measurement of graphical power on a games console or GPU. But as is often the case with computing, the reality isn’t quite as simple and you probably shouldn’t use tflops as the ultimate barometer when researching your next GPU or console."

Sure, perhaps saying "they don't matter at all" is a stretch, but in the grand scheme of architecture, game development, and throughput, they are simply a baseline of theory. I know 'more flops' sounds nice, but the way these consoles will work (or any console, for that matter) isn't/won't be in theory. Rather, how the intertwined anatomy of each device flows and functions to pump out the goods. Flops sit beside "bits" in the gaming world — fun to discuss, theoretical at best. It isn't that one (or both) of the manufacturers will be "wrong in their approach". One will simply be more efficient (there's always going to be a winner, no matter how good each device is crafted, that's just science). Both will be master crafts in console architecture, regardless of theoretical performance.

And, I'm not upset about anything which is why I continue trying to inform you better on this topic. :P

Just butting in, I do remember several instances where Pema have put exactly same architeture with over 10% difference on Tflop that either had almost equal performance or the one with lower TF outperforming the one with more, because Tflop only measured single precision float point while GPU have much more than that when used for gaming and not everything will scale linearly and be on same proportion as the TF.

For something as Tflop to be used to tell the difference between two cards likely you would need everything absolutely equal except Tflop being higher or lower.



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PC can still get back the leadership on the whole texture pipeline using a fast enough SSD and making up for the missing specialised PS5 IO with far larger RAM, using large portions of it to cache a lot of textures, and faster GPUs, to actually be able to fully use all those available data. Anyhow, the PS5 solution will still keep a huge lead on PCs with the same CPU and GPU power and the same RAM size.



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vivster said:
This demo had no vegetation.

That's my only complaint about this demo.



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