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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Digital Foundry Video: Hands-On With Xbox Series X + Impressions + Xbox One X Size Comparisons + Official Specs + Ray Tracing

CGI-Quality said:
the-pi-guy said:

There are actually 2 different numbers that get called Gigabytes.  

10^9 tends to be used in storage contexts and other contexts. 

2^30 is used in CS contexts (for RAM for instance). 

Not wrong, a bit ambiguous at most.  

It's actually pretty amazing how common those two get mixed up. I generally try to correct the gb vs GB mistake because there's such a massive difference in the units (much like when I see people claim they have 100MB/s of high speed internet and I have to bring them back down to size and remind them that it is 100Mb/s).

You said:

"You are good at moderating, but you really seem to have a problem admitting even the tiniest mistake on your side."

Considering I went and looked at the discussion again, and promptly fixed my error (and pointed out how you helped), yes, you are wrong here. No, I'm not looking for an actual apology, but you certainly seem to have a negative attitude about it. I've tried to keep it light-hearted.

Piece of advice — if you are correct in your argument (which you were), then there's nothing to be uptight about.

Oh, only saw your first edit, not the second.

I sincerely apologize for claiming that you have a problem admitting even the tiniest mistake, sir.

Can we be friends again?



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Bofferbrauer2 said:
Nu-13 said:

Lmfao meanwhile the wii and all consolea that camr before had colors to spare.

ROFL! Yeah, no.

NES had only a total palette of 64 colors (6 bit, though 10 were black, resulting into 54 colors total), and even that one was divided into palettes of 25 colors (5 bit including 7 black colors) for backgrounds and even just 3 + transparency (2 bit) for sprites as it's VRAM was too small for more. And even then having more than a couple sprites at the same time caused flickering because VRAM overflow.

SNES had a 32000 colors palette(15 bit) in total, but of those only 256 could be visible at once (8bit) in low resolution, or even just 128 colors (7 bit) with high resolution, while sprites were limited to 16 (4 bit) to save on memory.

Speaking of sprites, they were also limited in size and numbers, otherwise the VRAM would again overflow. Same with the screen resolution, which was only 256x240 on the NES and on the SNES (SNES also had higher resolutions, but those were interlaced, so only every second line or row or even both were actually used).

Let's have a closer look at the SNES for a while. The SNES has a total of 64 Kilobyte of VRAM. Calculate 256*240*8, which results in 491200 bits or exactly 60 Kilobyte for the background of a SNES game. it could have sprites of up to 64x64 in 4 bit color depth, which is exactly 2 kilobyte, so only 2 different of those could exist without screen flickering. Thus most used smaller sprites, for instance 8x8 sprites are just 32 byte tall, meaning 128 of those can fit into 4 kilobyte. And 128 sprites at once are also the maximum it could show based on it's specs.

The reason why older games are more colorful is not due to them having lots of colors, but because programmers could choose by hand exactly what colors they wanted, while the lack of VRAM imposed restrictions on things like resolution and the sprites. Once we reached millions of colors, that just wasn't feasible anymore, and instead the bit depth got simply reduced to not tax the memory too much. The strong compression of those textures to fit into the tiny VRAM further deteriorated their colors, and they looked very muted as a result.

Just listen to yourself. You made the ridiculous claim of muddied colors because of limited memory when much weaker consoles had vibrant colors everywhere.



Nu-13 said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

ROFL! Yeah, no.

NES had only a total palette of 64 colors (6 bit, though 10 were black, resulting into 54 colors total), and even that one was divided into palettes of 25 colors (5 bit including 7 black colors) for backgrounds and even just 3 + transparency (2 bit) for sprites as it's VRAM was too small for more. And even then having more than a couple sprites at the same time caused flickering because VRAM overflow.

SNES had a 32000 colors palette(15 bit) in total, but of those only 256 could be visible at once (8bit) in low resolution, or even just 128 colors (7 bit) with high resolution, while sprites were limited to 16 (4 bit) to save on memory.

Speaking of sprites, they were also limited in size and numbers, otherwise the VRAM would again overflow. Same with the screen resolution, which was only 256x240 on the NES and on the SNES (SNES also had higher resolutions, but those were interlaced, so only every second line or row or even both were actually used).

Let's have a closer look at the SNES for a while. The SNES has a total of 64 Kilobyte of VRAM. Calculate 256*240*8, which results in 491200 bits or exactly 60 Kilobyte for the background of a SNES game. it could have sprites of up to 64x64 in 4 bit color depth, which is exactly 2 kilobyte, so only 2 different of those could exist without screen flickering. Thus most used smaller sprites, for instance 8x8 sprites are just 32 byte tall, meaning 128 of those can fit into 4 kilobyte. And 128 sprites at once are also the maximum it could show based on it's specs.

The reason why older games are more colorful is not due to them having lots of colors, but because programmers could choose by hand exactly what colors they wanted, while the lack of VRAM imposed restrictions on things like resolution and the sprites. Once we reached millions of colors, that just wasn't feasible anymore, and instead the bit depth got simply reduced to not tax the memory too much. The strong compression of those textures to fit into the tiny VRAM further deteriorated their colors, and they looked very muted as a result.

Just listen to yourself. You made the ridiculous claim of muddied colors because of limited memory when much weaker consoles had vibrant colors everywhere.

It's not that hard to grasp what he's trying to say.

Vibrant colors has nothing to do with it. When you make a realistic looking game with realistic lighting model with a lot of shade areas, high contrast, details in dark areas, and you are limited by 8 bit color, you kind of have to switch to a muted color scheme not to turn everything into a color banding mess. To improve color fidelity at a high range of brightness, like HDR (real or simulated), you need to have your entire rendering pipeline in FP16. The more passes you make for more effects, the more screen buffers need to be doubled in memory size.

HDR increases memory by 2x, 4K by 4x compared to 1080p. Thus from 1080p 8 bit, to 4K HDR, your screen buffers take 8x the memory!

RDR2 had fake HDR, likely due to memory constraints.



SvennoJ said:
Nu-13 said:

Just listen to yourself. You made the ridiculous claim of muddied colors because of limited memory when much weaker consoles had vibrant colors everywhere.

It's not that hard to grasp what he's trying to say.

Vibrant colors has nothing to do with it. When you make a realistic looking game with realistic lighting model with a lot of shade areas, high contrast, details in dark areas, and you are limited by 8 bit color, you kind of have to switch to a muted color scheme not to turn everything into a color banding mess. To improve color fidelity at a high range of brightness, like HDR (real or simulated), you need to have your entire rendering pipeline in FP16. The more passes you make for more effects, the more screen buffers need to be doubled in memory size.

HDR increases memory by 2x, 4K by 4x compared to 1080p. Thus from 1080p 8 bit, to 4K HDR, your screen buffers take 8x the memory!

RDR2 had fake HDR, likely due to memory constraints.

For me RDR2 had fake HDR due to poor workmanship =p

Because it managed to look worse than SDR on any HDR TV =p



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:

For me RDR2 had fake HDR due to poor workmanship =p

Because it managed to look worse than SDR on any HDR TV =p

It was nothing but stretching the 8 bit color buffer, dialing up the max brightness to expand it to HDR range. Which is why it looked worse than simply sticking to SDR. Your whole pipeline needs to be in 16 bit color to produce good HDR.



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Nu-13 said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

ROFL! Yeah, no.

NES had only a total palette of 64 colors (6 bit, though 10 were black, resulting into 54 colors total), and even that one was divided into palettes of 25 colors (5 bit including 7 black colors) for backgrounds and even just 3 + transparency (2 bit) for sprites as it's VRAM was too small for more. And even then having more than a couple sprites at the same time caused flickering because VRAM overflow.

SNES had a 32000 colors palette(15 bit) in total, but of those only 256 could be visible at once (8bit) in low resolution, or even just 128 colors (7 bit) with high resolution, while sprites were limited to 16 (4 bit) to save on memory.

Speaking of sprites, they were also limited in size and numbers, otherwise the VRAM would again overflow. Same with the screen resolution, which was only 256x240 on the NES and on the SNES (SNES also had higher resolutions, but those were interlaced, so only every second line or row or even both were actually used).

Let's have a closer look at the SNES for a while. The SNES has a total of 64 Kilobyte of VRAM. Calculate 256*240*8, which results in 491200 bits or exactly 60 Kilobyte for the background of a SNES game. it could have sprites of up to 64x64 in 4 bit color depth, which is exactly 2 kilobyte, so only 2 different of those could exist without screen flickering. Thus most used smaller sprites, for instance 8x8 sprites are just 32 byte tall, meaning 128 of those can fit into 4 kilobyte. And 128 sprites at once are also the maximum it could show based on it's specs.

The reason why older games are more colorful is not due to them having lots of colors, but because programmers could choose by hand exactly what colors they wanted, while the lack of VRAM imposed restrictions on things like resolution and the sprites. Once we reached millions of colors, that just wasn't feasible anymore, and instead the bit depth got simply reduced to not tax the memory too much. The strong compression of those textures to fit into the tiny VRAM further deteriorated their colors, and they looked very muted as a result.

Just listen to yourself. You made the ridiculous claim of muddied colors because of limited memory when much weaker consoles had vibrant colors everywhere.

I just bolded the part that you seemingly overlooked. Those old console games were programmed much more hands-on, and programmers could choose all the colors and shades they specifically wanted. But try doing this when you have the choice of millions of colors and have to bring that down to 12 or 16 bit (4096 and 65538 colors), especially when it's supposed to look "realistic". That's simply an impossible task.

I did all the part before that to explain why those consoles looked vibrant despite having very limited RAM and explained how they did it. But the thing is, that's simply not possible on modern 3D graphics.

Remember when I gave you the size of a screen on the SNES above? Since it's all 2D in a 2D engine, all fits into those 64 KB. No need for a framebuffer, no need for extra space for the textures, some post-processing, and so on. And since you see so much more detail in 4K, especially with HDR10, you can't cheap out on the textures unlike in the 7th gen without it looking very uncanny or just plain bad. Back then, the only the colors really got muted as the resolution and processing power was too low to include and see all the details anyway. But that's gonna become a problem this gen after 2022 at the latest.



DonFerrari said:
EricHiggin said:
Wasn't it explained that next gen games have to be played off the SSD for XBSX? Then how can those same games be played on the XB1 HDD models? The games may have reduced quality due to the much slower HDD, but why force that on next gen? Why not allow people to play off an external HDD? Will the HDD to SSD transfer speeds be that quick that it'll make up for the quicker load times you will see from the SSD? What if you're strapped for time and only have half an hour?

Because on Xbox 1 they are different game. Are you going to ask why do we need better GPU and CPU to play those games on XSX since we can do with much worse on X1 base model?

I don't think you get the point. Is BC easy between XB consoles? Is getting BC games to play off the HDD on the XBSX easy? Is getting next gen XB games to play on last gen hardware easy? Then why not make it so those next gen games, can be played off the HDD on XBSX to save time if you so choose?

I don't actually see why it technically couldn't anyway. If last gen games can be played off an HDD for XBSX, and next gen games will be playable on last gen hardware, why can't those same games play off the HDD on XBSX? Isn't Cyberpunk offering a free upgrade when you go from last gen to next gen?



EricHiggin said:
DonFerrari said:

Because on Xbox 1 they are different game. Are you going to ask why do we need better GPU and CPU to play those games on XSX since we can do with much worse on X1 base model?

I don't think you get the point. Is BC easy between XB consoles? Is getting BC games to play off the HDD on the XBSX easy? Is getting next gen XB games to play on last gen hardware easy? Then why not make it so those next gen games, can be played off the HDD on XBSX to save time if you so choose?

I don't actually see why it technically couldn't anyway. If last gen games can be played off an HDD for XBSX, and next gen games will be playable on last gen hardware, why can't those same games play off the HDD on XBSX? Isn't Cyberpunk offering a free upgrade when you go from last gen to next gen?

If they could then they would have been fundamentally different games, the one you play from HDD or on X1X will take 1 min to load and all other similar aspects, the one you play next gen on the SDD will take 1s to load.

Not sure why you want to have the worse experience just so you don't need to transfer the data from HDD to SDD if you so much wants to go the cheaper route for the extended memory.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
EricHiggin said:

I don't think you get the point. Is BC easy between XB consoles? Is getting BC games to play off the HDD on the XBSX easy? Is getting next gen XB games to play on last gen hardware easy? Then why not make it so those next gen games, can be played off the HDD on XBSX to save time if you so choose?

I don't actually see why it technically couldn't anyway. If last gen games can be played off an HDD for XBSX, and next gen games will be playable on last gen hardware, why can't those same games play off the HDD on XBSX? Isn't Cyberpunk offering a free upgrade when you go from last gen to next gen?

If they could then they would have been fundamentally different games, the one you play from HDD or on X1X will take 1 min to load and all other similar aspects, the one you play next gen on the SDD will take 1s to load.

Not sure why you want to have the worse experience just so you don't need to transfer the data from HDD to SDD if you so much wants to go the cheaper route for the extended memory.

It seems clear to me that MS is doing everything they can for the most part to offer as many options as possible, for as many circumstances as possible, making them as easy as possible. Based on what I said earlier, if someone's trying to cram in some gaming sessions in short bursts and the transfer time is going to take up too much (we don't know yet), why can't they play from the HDD and just deal with the inferior version for those instances?



EricHiggin said:
DonFerrari said:

If they could then they would have been fundamentally different games, the one you play from HDD or on X1X will take 1 min to load and all other similar aspects, the one you play next gen on the SDD will take 1s to load.

Not sure why you want to have the worse experience just so you don't need to transfer the data from HDD to SDD if you so much wants to go the cheaper route for the extended memory.

It seems clear to me that MS is doing everything they can for the most part to offer as many options as possible, for as many circumstances as possible, making them as easy as possible. Based on what I said earlier, if someone's trying to cram in some gaming sessions in short bursts and the transfer time is going to take up too much (we don't know yet), why can't they play from the HDD and just deal with the inferior version for those instances?

Are you sure you read the Wired Article or watched the reveals?

Both platform holders are betting on it being a game changer, 100x faster memory, that will change the whole game development. Just because it have the same name "Fifa 22" let's say doesn't mean it is codded the same. The versions will be essentially different even for the crossgen.

The transfer of a 25Gb game would take couple minutes from HDD to SDD and done once, while the loading of the game or reloads would happen every time so that doesn't seem a good solution. MS is even advising to use the SDD for the BC games to enjoy the improvements of SDD.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."