I am a gaymer , I am gay

"Yet when it comes to this circumstance where someone is defying gender norms, either through their sexuality or the way the present themselves, there needs to be a special reason.  A character can't just be trans because that character happens to be trans.  What is the reason that there needs to be this special requirement?  I'm open to suggestions but the only logical reason I can think of is that people just don't like that group of people."

This is literally what you just said, but you apparantly forget what you write in a previous post and like to take my posts out of context. "People just don't like that group of people" You could only talk about gamers hating LGBT people here because most people upset with TLOU 2 are gamers and fans of the original so stop acting like you don't know what i'm talking about.

"I also never said a person couldn't refuse to buy a game for whatever reason they want.  But if those reasons are based on bias, they should be called out as such."

Well then you just have problems and are a hypocrite cause most people would not call you out for not wanting to play as a heterosexual male/female most just wouldn't give a damn. Neither would you like to be called out on that for such a ridiculous reason. If a Christian doesn't want to play as a homosexual protaganist or a racist doesn't want to play as a Black character then that's their choice and their opinion, it's a videogame. Seriously, grow up and get over yourself.

By the way you never played the original Last of Us game. You most likely have no interest at all in playing the second one either, especially not since it was targeted to white cis gendered males most of whom, according to you, just dont like LGBT people. Now after all the leaks and negative press the game will probably sell less or receive unfavorable gamer reviews must be all because of homophobes just being homophobes right? Nothing wrong with the game's direction at all! You also keep coming up with petty excuses to reinforce the idea that gamers have a problem with more LGBT inclusion rather than what the direction the game has taken.

All i'm getting from you is that gaming community has a anti- LGBT sentiment (which is false) solely based off of TLOU2's negative response. I've giving you a couple of reasons already, but you just ignore them and make it all about the "hate for including more LGBT characters"  

No, that's not phobic, I like Ellie as lesbian. it's a dissapointed reaction to the mishandling of the story and characters.

That's what YOU want to make out of it, because if somebody questions the game's direction they must simply be anti- LGBT.

See? You keep putting the blame on me because i don't like how the game is ditching old characters and wants to make a social political point when the first game had none of that and didn't became succesful because of that in the first place.

That reasoning won't work on me as i'm a minority myself. Neither Joel nor Ellie represent me because i'm not white, female, a father or gay yet i can relate to both of them. I don't care that the game doesn't represent mixed people such as myself because I don't feel any need to be represented, this is not real life politics this is a videogame i want to play games and enjoy them while playing.

I would not like Street Fighter or Super Mario Bros any more than i already do if they suddenly started to centre around Black people or racism. I like the fact that more games represent more races, ethnicities and sexuality these days because we do exist in the gaming community. But i don't need it to be shoved in my face if it's just there to "prove a point" and be "aware" nobody likes that, people like you just want to force other people to like these politics when that is not what most gamers are looking for in their favorite games and have every right to express their opinions on it.

If you can tell a good story about a homosexual couple then it'll grow with players and they'll start to like it, not by shitting over the previous game and it's fanbase.

Pro ninja agenda? I guess that's a thing in wherever your from? Lol.

But yeah most gamers back then indeed didn't like that a fan favorite character was ditched to the side in favor of a new character that came out of nowhere just like what's happening with TLOU 2 right now. So maybe it's NOT about the inclusion of LGBT characters but about bad handling of the characters and story.

BTW people joked about Raiden looking very feminine back then, but he's not trans ... Why aren't you upset about them calling a cis gendered male "female looking" where is the equality? I guess that doesn't work for both sides huh.

i'm sorry if i hijacked this thread, i know it's supposed to be positive. But i really wanted to know what you meant by "safe" for LGBT because i do think this and many other gaming sites are safe for anyone to express themselves and their thoughts. In fact, the mods are doing much more for LGBT to express their opinions here, than for groups of people who don't like the direction of LOU2 because some idiots in their threads use slurs and all of a sudden the thread needs to be locked and opinions get shut down, no room for debate.

I do feel you need to worry about some of the reactions in this thread, however, it seems like many here, along with some mods, defend themselves behind this "victim role" and believe "cis gendered gamers" are out to get them if they even get a slight hint of LGBT thoughts or expression which is just ridiculous. We all just want games to be fun, not be political and divide each other but to open a thread and have a discussion about it just ends it up getting locked and look how many here want all of the LOU2 threads to get locked, they just don't want an open discussion. You either like and accept it, or you don't and get shut down.

Feel free to shut me down anytime you want as i don't give a damn and you would only prove my point that no open discussion is allowed here.

I asked Axumblade a simple question to define what he meant by safe, not you or any other person here who immediately countered my response and arguments and brought in this negative vibe. And i do not speak for LGBT i speak for myself and those who don't agree with TLOU2 even if we all have different opinions on the matter. 

Is the website a safe place for LGBT people? I guess I would have to say yes, as I would feel it hard to consider it "unsafe" unless I was experiencing some sort of targeted harassment or physical threats in PM or something.

Does it feel like a comfortable place for LGBT people? No way. It's frustrating, because it's the same rhetoric and bigotry disguised by shaky logic to make what they're saying seem more altruistic. I'm used to it, you see it everywhere, but it's a shame it has to happen here too. It makes me sad at times, angry at times, hopeless at times, but that's just something you have to learn to live with or else you'd be completely miserable.

The shame is that the people who make the kinds of statements I'm talking about in regards to representation and justification don't realize that whatever status quo they think they're defending wasn't the way society had viewed those groups in the past either. We had to move forward in terms of tolerance, inclusion, and understanding to even get the type of representation we had in media in the 80s, 90s, and so on. The point of that previous progress is the same as the progress today, so it really confuses me when people act as if there is a sudden red line divide between which ethnicity, gender, or community we're supposed to accept and which we're not when all this time we have been trying to make progress as a society for more respectable and visible representation in media.

Your answer just proved my point. Now let me get out of the topic as I dont want to make it unsafe. I will just keep lurking.

You've not made an actual point....just told everyone that your stance is constantly being reaffirmed.

I'm genuinely curious what to do in this thread, if I'm being honest. Like, okay, I get that it's for LGBT+ folks to talk and to be themselves, but like...to what end? Is it to discuss our sexuality? Is it to talk about LGBT+ representation? is it a gaymer dating app? Like, what could we even do if not discuss our feelings on representation in the media?

I'm not being critical, but I'm having a hard time thinking of things to say that are on topic and appropriate without discussing things like the Ellie Lesbian 'issue' (it's not an issue except to bigots who want it to be an issue).

Should we talk about what same-sex characters we wanna bang?
Maybe talk about our platonic crushes?
Characters we wish were gay?
Games that exclusively deal with LGBT+ issues?

I just don't see much room to discuss the issue without it bleeding over into some variation of the controversies that surround the group. Plus, by corraling all the LGBT+ folks into a corner, it's doing the opposite of normalizing us and in some ways ostracises us. I do understand the intention, but the best way to feel comfortable and to feel welcome is to be able to talk about, discuss, and share our opinions on the matter wherever we want rather than being put in a box. The best way to normalize LGBT+ representation and inclusion is to...act like it's normal (Which is exactly what The Last of Us 2 did, much to the chagrin of a vocal minority of fools).

I WANT to discuss these issues, I WANT to address the bigotry, I WANT to make progress, but I don't think this thread is a good way to do so. All it feels like to me is 'you gay folks go over there. Non gays, stay out, oh, and you're not allowed to get saucy by discussing the controversies'. to me, it's a 'Get out' conundrum. Trying TOO hard to be inclusive and welcoming really only leads to being weird and awkward, a type of bigotry that, though nowhere near as bad as outright hate crime, is still pretty offensive.

There's always a chance I'm misreading the situation, but that's how I personally feel. Either turn this thread into a place to discuss these issues, or don't have the thread at all. Anything else just feels...weird and awkward and uncomfortable.

That's a valid point, and ultimately I'd like to hear from the LBGTQ+ community (which for the record, I'm not a part of... not that it's a bad thing, I just want to make it clear I'm not a representative) on what they think this thread should be. And, I think, within reason of course, we will defer to their judgment.

Here is what I see as the problem based on that last bit of interaction. It started out with what I think was an example of what we thought should this thread should be about. A question was posed to lbgt+ community about whether or not they felt safe here. I think this thread was the perfect place to check the pulse of the LBGTQ+ community to see how they felt about how the forums were generally meeting their needs. What happened was we got sidetracked and the conversation largely became about cis-gendered white males (of which I was one) telling LBGTQ+ whether or not this was a safe place for them and how they should feel about lbgtq+ representation.

For me personally, I think the main thing is that I want the thread to be driven by LBGTQ+ users. I think the LBGTQ+ community discussing how they feel about the spoilers and about the reactions to them is potentially a good use of the thread, and I even think there is a place for good faith non-LBGTQ+ users who are making a legitimate effort to understand how the community feels about this issue. I think it becomes a problem when we the conversation instead becomes about debunking the views of one particular user who does not seem to be making a good faith effort to engage with the community. And I think several potential contributors were turned off by this kind of conversation.  There are a lot of places where both sides can argue about this issue, but I think the whole point of this thread is to have a pro-LBGTQ+ bias, since there are obviously many places that will have an anti-LBGTQ+ bias.

In short, what I think is important is for the community to really be driving the conversation in the direction they think is most useful. To that end, I won't comment any further, I throw the question out to the LBGTQ+ community. What would you like to see this thread used for if at all?"

I personally feel like all topics should be on the table for discussion, my only concern is certain topics becoming the focus in response to locked threads or moderated user grievances. If a serious topic of discussion were to pop up in here, I think having those deep discussions about potentially controversial issues could be beneficial. I think all the other friendly chat and fun topics are a good idea as well. I think the most important thing is to keep the discussion as natural as possible.