Forums - General Discussion - The LGBT thread (Revisited)

Immersiveunreality said:
SpokenTruth said:

So they (Naughty Dog) have handled inclusiveness well before, are known for great stories with great characters and yet....no trust this will be no different?  Suddenly for this one specific game with this one specific demographic - now we have a problem?

This is me giving my dubious as hell face.

No,but you could try to understand why others do fear there might be a problem without thinking it has to be hatefull against trans people.

Trust is highly fluctuating on a personal level and surely trust in big companies,so it varies from person to person.

My point is that ND already handled inclusiveness in a manner that most fans didn't have a problem with.  And they'd always provided great stories that most fans didn't have a problem with.

But now we have this one thing they do have a problem with.  And it sure doesn't seem to be an issue with trust that ND will handle it right but that they simply don't like the subject matter having any larger role than it did in the first game or DLC.



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SpokenTruth said:
Immersiveunreality said:

No,but you could try to understand why others do fear there might be a problem without thinking it has to be hatefull against trans people.

Trust is highly fluctuating on a personal level and surely trust in big companies,so it varies from person to person.

My point is that ND already handled inclusiveness in a manner that most fans didn't have a problem with.  And they'd always provided great stories that most fans didn't have a problem with.

But now we have this one thing they do have a problem with.  And it sure doesn't seem to be an issue with trust that ND will handle it right but that they simply don't like the subject matter having any larger role than it did in the first game or DLC.

My point is that your trust in ND does not have to play such a big role in thinking so negatively about people.

Your projecting the company's past like there can be no chance a game can turn out badly and even when there is only a tiny chance it will do then consumers still have the right to hold that fear without being bad people.



Immersiveunreality has noted that this thread has moved pretty far off topic and I agree. If the other thread hasn't been locked yet, perhaps this can be continued there or a new thread created if needed. But let's move this one back where it belongs.



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

SpokenTruth said:
Immersiveunreality has noted that this thread has moved pretty far off topic and I agree. If the other thread hasn't been locked yet, perhaps this can be continued there or a new thread created if needed. But let's move this one back where it belongs.

Honestly, I'd rather keep the conversation here. I mean, an LGBT thread is the perfect place to talk about LGBT representation. 



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Runa216 said:
SpokenTruth said:
Immersiveunreality has noted that this thread has moved pretty far off topic and I agree. If the other thread hasn't been locked yet, perhaps this can be continued there or a new thread created if needed. But let's move this one back where it belongs.

Honestly, I'd rather keep the conversation here. I mean, an LGBT thread is the perfect place to talk about LGBT representation. 

From the OP.

"This is a safe space for us to write lgbt+ news, have polls on lgbt issues, and discuss experiences that we have had as part of the community."

That TLoU2 LGBT issue topic doesn't really fit well for this thread unless the negativity that was brought with it can be removed. I expect it to stir back up which would make the subject better left for a dedicated thread.



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Well, as the only lesbian on this message board (for whatever that may be worth to anyone in terms of providing a different, perhaps more directly relevant, perspective), here are some of my thoughts on all this:

Never in my entire life have I seen so much hatred directed at any one video game prior to its release as has been directed at The Last of Us Part II. Usually this level of contempt is reserved for non-gamers: for pissed-off parents worried about how a video game will pervert their children or turn them into mass murderers or something, whereupon the most devoted may get in touch with their member of Congress or file a lawsuit in a bid to have the title in question removed from store shelves because freedom of speech is just far less important than the unquestioning perpetuation of traditional morals and time-tested, mindlessly repetitive themes and plots in all media, period. In this case though, instead the controversy mainly comes from gamers themselves. Which makes this way scarier to me. It begs the question of why. Why THIS level of fanatical vitriol? Why such a unique level of controversy before anyone has even played it? And why did it begin early, NOT recently upon the controversial leaks? Well let's put it this way: The Last of Us Part II will be the first full AAA video game in history to (at least substantially anyway) narratively center an explicitly lesbian character. Every other explanation is bullshit, considering how early on the attacks against this game began. That's it. What other reception would you expect from a community and culture that consists almost exclusively of heterosexual men? I mean seriously. A warm welcome or something? Get real. This was inevitable. It never mattered what the story was!

What makes Abby supposedly a transwoman even though she seems to be voiced by a biological female? Well she has muscles, so isn't dainty and cute, so is therefore not really a woman at all! Or at least surely not a "cis" woman?

Why is Ellie's attraction to Dinah a political conspiracy against heterosexual relationships and men? Because in this game, they're trying to start a family together, which is something that heterosexual couples never do, especially in video games! See? EMASCULATION!!! Well actually first it was because they kissed in public (oh my god, no!), but more recently the explanation has changed.

ETC.!

...But the characters who advance these types of arguments definitely aren't bigoted, they would have us believe. Nope, no male chauvinism there! No homophobia there! Defs not! Denial isn't just a river in Egypt, people.

Personally, I'm excited about Ellie's more prominent role in this sequel, and yeah, that's partially because she's lesbian and so am I. It helps make Ellie a character I can relate to more than other leading ladies in gaming. I'm also simply interested in the type of person that she is all-around. Am I thrilled about every single aspect of the recent leak that we've all come to be familiar with by now, I believe? Nah, there are some minor qualms I think I may have, but we'll see! It's all in the presentation, I think, if my love of Okami is any indication. (Okami is a game promoting religious faith. I'm an atheist. I don't agree with all the logic presented in the game. But I've still fallen in love with the game anyway owing to its sheer sincerity and the beauty of its vision for the role of faith in the world. I don't have to actually agree with what a game is saying, if it's really saying anything, to love it!)

One of the things I love most about Naughty Dog is the fact that they don't have a producer department. The people who work on the game get to be more or less as creative and spontaneous as they want to be, just like it was an indie game being released! That's what you see reflected in the plot direction here. That's why it seems so wild and un-corporate and risky. That's what I love about the old classic games. It's what I love about today's independently-developed games. That Naughty Dog has developed a penchant for bringing that ethos and mindset to the AAA market is what I love most about them. It's not a coincidence that they're the ones setting this new, aforementioned representational precedent for the AAA market. It takes a willingness to take huge commercial risks to do that. I may be in the minority in applauding that audacity, and might be accused of selfishness in so doing, but so be it. I for one want to see where this game goes!

Last edited by Jaicee - on 02 May 2020

Jaicee said:

Well, as the only lesbian on this message board (for whatever that may be worth to anyone in terms of providing a different, perhaps more directly relevant, perspective), here are some of my thoughts on all this:

Never in my entire life have I seen so much hatred directed at any one video game prior to its release as has been directed at The Last of Us Part II. Usually this level of contempt is reserved for non-gamers: for pissed-off parents worried about how a video game will pervert their children or turn them into mass murderers or something, whereupon the most devoted may get in touch with their member of Congress or file a lawsuit in a bid to have the title in question removed from store shelves because freedom of speech is just far less important than the unquestioning perpetuation of traditional morals and time-tested, mindlessly repetitive themes and plots in all media, period. In this case though, instead the controversy mainly comes from gamers themselves. Which makes this way scarier to me. It begs the question of why. Why THIS level of fanatical vitriol? Why such a unique level of controversy before anyone has even played it? And why did it begin early, NOT recently upon the controversial leaks? Well let's put it this way: The Last of Us Part II will be the first full AAA game in history to (at least substantially anyway) narratively center an explicitly lesbian character. Every other explanation is bullshit, considering how early on the attacks against this game began. That's it. What other reception would you expect from a community and culture that consists almost exclusively of heterosexual men? I mean seriously. A warm welcome or something? Get real. This was inevitable. It never mattered what the story was!

What makes Abby supposedly a transwoman even though she seems to be voiced by a biological female? Well she has muscles, so isn't dainty and cute, so is therefore not a woman at all!

Why is Ellie's attraction to Dinah a political conspiracy against heterosexual relationships and men? Because in this game, they're trying to start a family, which is something that heterosexual couples never do, especially in video games! See? EMASCULATION!!! We actually first it was because they kissed in public (oh my god, no!), but more recently the explanation has changed.

ETC.!

...But the characters who advance these types of arguments definitely aren't bigoted, they would have us believe. Nope, no male chauvinism there! No homophobia there! Defs not! Denial isn't just a river in Egypt, people.

Personally, I'm excited about Ellie's more prominent role in this sequel, and yeah, that's partially because I have this characteristic in common with her. It helps make Ellie a character I can relate to more than other leading ladies in gaming. I'm also simply interested in the type of person that she is all-around. Am I thrilled about every single aspect of the recent leak that we've all come to be familiar with by now, I believe? Nah, there are some minor qualms I think I may have, but we'll see! It's all in the presentation, I think, if my love of Okami is any indication. (Okami is a game promoting religious faith. I'm an atheist. I don't agree with all the logic presented in the game. But I've still fallen in love with the game anyway owing to its sheer sincerity and the beauty of its vision for the role of faith in the world. I don't have to actually agree with what a game is saying, if it's really saying anything, to love it!)

One of the things I love most about Naughty Dog is the fact that they don't have a producer department. The people who work on the game get to be as creative and spontaneous as they want to be, just like it was an indie game being released! That's what you see reflected in the plot direction here. That's why it seems so wild and un-corporate and risky. That's what I love about the old classic games. It's what I love about today's independently-developed games. That Naughty Dog has developed a penchant for bringing that ethos and mindset to the AAA market is what I love most about them. It's not a coincidence that they're the ones setting this new, aforementioned representational precedent for the AAA market. It takes a willingness to take huge commercial risks to do that. I may be in the minority in applauding that audacity, and might be accused of selfishness in so doing, but so be it. I for one want to see where this game goes!

Didn't want to comment further... but yeah.

Whenever these kinds of issues come up people suddenly care deeply and passionately about things they never cared about before.  If someone doesn't like a particular group of people represented in their games, that's a valid position.  I mean, it'd be better if they didn't hold it, but people are entitled to have those kinds of opinions.  But the kind "oh I don't have anything against any group of people, I just really really care about pronoun usage" kind of cowardice just bugs me.  



You can add me to the gaymer list, but I'm not going to contribute anything else to this disaster of a thread.



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Well, I'm bi, so I guess you could add me to the gaymer list?

It's nice to see a pro-LGBT thread being made here, considering that this site is one of the most LGBTphobic places I've ever been (and I lived in Brazil with a devout evangelical family, so I know my LGBTphobia). It's obviously not VGChartz's fault, because this isn't exclusive to this forum. Gaming has just become such a safe place for bigoted cis white misogynistic men for some weird reason. It's really hard to find an LGBT character in popular games, let alone one that's not blatantly stereotypical (how could you when even non-fetishized female characters get backlash from gamers?)

Talking about TLoU Part II, it's a real breath of fresh air. It's not the kind of game I like to play, but having a non-stereotypical LGBT character as the protagonist in a high-budget system-selling game is really exciting. It's just not very encouraging when the representation of such a large portion of society in gaming seems to be dependant on the sales of one game, that can be affected by so many other factors (and might be disappointing because of the huge leaks). I have no doubts that, if TLoU 2 doesn't break records or set the world on fire, people will blame it on the gay protagonist, and publishers will be hesitant to fund games with LGBT protagonists for a few more years.



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LuccaCardoso1 said:
Well, I'm bi, so I guess you could add me to the gaymer list?

It's nice to see a pro-LGBT thread being made here, considering that this site is one of the most LGBTphobic places I've ever been (and I lived in Brazil with a devout evangelical family, so I know my LGBTphobia). It's obviously not VGChartz's fault, because this isn't exclusive to this forum. Gaming has just become such a safe place for bigoted cis white misogynistic men for some weird reason. It's really hard to find an LGBT character in popular games, let alone one that's not blatantly stereotypical (how could you when even non-fetishized female characters get backlash from gamers?)

Talking about TLoU Part II, it's a real breath of fresh air. It's not the kind of game I like to play, but having a non-stereotypical LGBT character as the protagonist in a high-budget system-selling game is really exciting. It's just not very encouraging when the representation of such a large portion of society in gaming seems to be dependant on the sales of one game, that can be affected by so many other factors (and might be disappointing because of the huge leaks). I have no doubts that, if TLoU 2 doesn't break records or set the world on fire, people will blame it on the gay protagonist, and publishers will be hesitant to fund games with LGBT protagonists for a few more years.

I will just say that in my experience the group of people that really hate others for their sexuality and how they look is seen much bigger by some than what it is in reality based on proportions of the places where you have lived and there are some shitty places with people that think it is against a certain belief to be a certain way but it would be hard for me to find something truly against LGBT on this site and anything going that direction is moderated.

But my perception seems to differ so much that debating it is useless,i deal with the looks and actions from people being phobic for about 30 years so i am thankfull that i can see that it is coming from only a small group who are actually hatefull.

I do not care much for sexuality in games,it can be any if it is a strong character and i welcome representation that is done correctly and in no stereotypical matter.