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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Goodby Teraflop (PS5 and Xbox Scarlet probably will not contest on Teraflop number anymore) expect 8 to 9 teraflop for PS5 and Scarlet

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What do you think with these teraflop number

Yes 1 2.94%
 
No 0 0%
 
i don't care teraflop , i... 19 55.88%
 
I am expecting more 6 17.65%
 
These within my expecation 4 11.76%
 
I am impressed we get mor... 2 5.88%
 
I still believe even with... 2 5.88%
 
Total:34

Most likely scenario is 2x XBO X, hopefully with additional hardware for RT.
Still not very good considering much bigger 1080p to 4K UHD jump than 720p to 1080p this gen, so hopefully devs will not chase native 4K too much, at least later in gen.



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The more the merrier. So give me juice =]



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

I guess it will all depend on how many CUs they choose to use. If the Gonzolas chip is what is in the PS5, 36 gives us 8.3Tflops, 40 gives us 9.2Tflops, 44 10.1Tflops, 48 11.1Tflops, 52 Tflops 12Tflops, and 56 12.9Tflops.

Personally, with the savings they will receive by waiting a year for the process to mature, buying direct from AMD, and in bulk, I don't see them only using 40 CUs. Not if they are building a $600 box and selling it for $500. By the time they are ready to mass produce the PS5, I wouldn't be surprised if they can't get the CPU they are using, more than likely a Ryzen 7 3700X, for $150 a pop. That leaves quite a bit of room for the GPU.



https://www.techtimes.com/articles/186804/20161128/could-the-playstation-5-have-an-impressive-8-teraflop-gpu-for-true-4k-gaming.htm

Cerny mentioned around the launch of Pro in 2016 that he felt at least 8TF would be needed for guaranteed full native 4k. Can't help but wonder if he was privy to info about where Navi was likely to land in terms of TF calculation. It would also partially explain why Pro only hit 4.2TF. If your next gen console is 'only' going to hit 8TF-10TF, then why try and launch a monster of a console and make the next gen leap look much less impressive?

This would make it tougher for MS to market Project Scarlett since they will either have to really push the GPU performance and pay a hefty price for that, or possibly sacrifice CPU cores to keep the die size and cost down, or use two separate dies, still increasing costs. PS5 could be 8.4TF and it will seem like a much larger and more worthwhile leap in comparison to a 9TF-10TF Scarlett. Even if PS decided to shoot for 10TF and that happened to be where Scarlett landed as well, then it would still look better for PS than MS, due to the difference in performance gains on paper. PS will be able to use this to their advantage, where it would hurt MS, making their advancement seem weaker.



EricHiggin said:

https://www.techtimes.com/articles/186804/20161128/could-the-playstation-5-have-an-impressive-8-teraflop-gpu-for-true-4k-gaming.htm

Cerny mentioned around the launch of Pro in 2016 that he felt at least 8TF would be needed for guaranteed full native 4k. Can't help but wonder if he was privy to info about where Navi was likely to land in terms of TF calculation. It would also partially explain why Pro only hit 4.2TF. If your next gen console is 'only' going to hit 8TF-10TF, then why try and launch a monster of a console and make the next gen leap look much less impressive?

This would make it tougher for MS to market Project Scarlett since they will either have to really push the GPU performance and pay a hefty price for that, or possibly sacrifice CPU cores to keep the die size and cost down, or use two separate dies, still increasing costs. PS5 could be 8.4TF and it will seem like a much larger and more worthwhile leap in comparison to a 9TF-10TF Scarlett. Even if PS decided to shoot for 10TF and that happened to be where Scarlett landed as well, then it would still look better for PS than MS, due to the difference in performance gains on paper. PS will be able to use this to their advantage, where it would hurt MS, making their advancement seem weaker.

LOL, this is so true. Microsoft got a powerful hardware on the mid gen refresh but it's actually will hit back them as soon next gen coming. If Microsoft want they can just wait for 2021 or 2022, but they need to have early start or at least compete at the same timeframe with PS5 to get the hype. Sony in the other hand like you said is actually more relax. Even they can just said "we are happy PS5 is 2X the power of Pro and sell it with 8 teraflop ",  even though 8 teraflop Navi is like 12 to 13 teraflop Vega/GCN. Microsoft will be difficult to reach 12 teraflop with Navi 7nm (it need at least 7 nm EUV (7+) small design that will not available until 2020 and 2021 for release. So Microsoft will be hard to sell it for casual or normal consumer that dont understand PC spec or not following PC tech. 



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thismeintiel said:
I guess it will all depend on how many CUs they choose to use. If the Gonzolas chip is what is in the PS5, 36 gives us 8.3Tflops, 40 gives us 9.2Tflops, 44 10.1Tflops, 48 11.1Tflops, 52 Tflops 12Tflops, and 56 12.9Tflops.

Personally, with the savings they will receive by waiting a year for the process to mature, buying direct from AMD, and in bulk, I don't see them only using 40 CUs. Not if they are building a $600 box and selling it for $500. By the time they are ready to mass produce the PS5, I wouldn't be surprised if they can't get the CPU they are using, more than likely a Ryzen 7 3700X, for $150 a pop. That leaves quite a bit of room for the GPU.

Trust me i would love to get more CU and more teraflop on PS5, but the reality is Navi GPU die is bigger compared to Vega even on the same 7nm process, and even 36 CU of Navi 10 (RX 5700) the transistor is double than 36 CU on PS4 pro. Also  do not worry the performance of even 7 to 8 teraflop of Navi is equal to 12 to 13 teraflop GCN (PS/PS4 Pro). Not include low level API and optimization that will bring out extra power for PS5 final performance.

But I do believe like you said PS5 were actually planned to release on 2019 but they are canceled and change to 2020 waiting for mature process to 7+ nm or 7 nm EUV process to get  44 to 48 CU fit inside PS5 APU and have 10 to 11 teraflop in compute performance (so in GCN number it's transale to 15 to 16 teraflop) and equal or more than RTX 2080 and close to 2080 Ti. But this is just my assumption, many forum dwellers in resetera and 3D forum are also still in debate weather PS5 will be using smaller Navi 7+ nm chip (7 nm EUV process) to fit more CU and have less power consumption and low temp. We can just cross our finger and hope for it.

But Alas Teraflop is not everything , as long it perform slightly better than RTX 2070 or close to RTX 2080 this console is already super beast even for 499 USD. Just let lower our expectation to reality so if it's in the end PS5 is getting 48 CU it will make us even happier due to our less expectation.  

Last edited by HollyGamer - on 02 July 2019

HollyGamer said:
EricHiggin said:

https://www.techtimes.com/articles/186804/20161128/could-the-playstation-5-have-an-impressive-8-teraflop-gpu-for-true-4k-gaming.htm

Cerny mentioned around the launch of Pro in 2016 that he felt at least 8TF would be needed for guaranteed full native 4k. Can't help but wonder if he was privy to info about where Navi was likely to land in terms of TF calculation. It would also partially explain why Pro only hit 4.2TF. If your next gen console is 'only' going to hit 8TF-10TF, then why try and launch a monster of a console and make the next gen leap look much less impressive?

This would make it tougher for MS to market Project Scarlett since they will either have to really push the GPU performance and pay a hefty price for that, or possibly sacrifice CPU cores to keep the die size and cost down, or use two separate dies, still increasing costs. PS5 could be 8.4TF and it will seem like a much larger and more worthwhile leap in comparison to a 9TF-10TF Scarlett. Even if PS decided to shoot for 10TF and that happened to be where Scarlett landed as well, then it would still look better for PS than MS, due to the difference in performance gains on paper. PS will be able to use this to their advantage, where it would hurt MS, making their advancement seem weaker.

LOL, this is so true. Microsoft got a powerful hardware on the mid gen refresh but it's actually will hit back them as soon next gen coming. If Microsoft want they can just wait for 2021 or 2022, but they need to have early start or at least compete at the same timeframe with PS5 to get the hype. Sony in the other hand like you said is actually more relax. Even they can just said "we are happy PS5 is 2X the power of Pro and sell it with 8 teraflop ",  even though 8 teraflop Navi is like 12 to 13 teraflop Vega/GCN. Microsoft will be difficult to reach 12 teraflop with Navi 7nm (it need at least 7 nm EUV (7+) small design that will not available until 2020 and 2021 for release. So Microsoft will be hard to sell it for casual or normal consumer that dont understand PC spec or not following PC tech. 

I'd imagine they would both stick with 7nm since the yields by next year should be acceptable in time for production for the holidays. If one company was going to shoot for 7nm+ I think it would be MS. They are likely to sell less consoles in general, especially if they come out with a higher performing more expensive console, so they could deal with lower yields and not worry as much about cost, even if it meant absorbing a little more early on. This would be what MS would need to guarantee they end up with the strongest console head to head next holiday, if both are looking to sell for around $499. Scarlett either wouldn't be all that much more powerful, or would be, though more heavily subsidized. Now if PS5 was around 8TF, and Scarlett ended up around 12TF, then you can almost bet that PS will keep PS5 $100 cheaper than Scarlett, so is that worth it for MS in terms of marketing? I would guess that MS would rather use 7nm and just make the cooling beefier and console larger if they need to instead, which should help it remain more cost competitive on the shelf.

If MS doesn't at least double the TF number for Scarlett it will look bad on them. If they don't focus on it, or use another indicator like Navi or how many CU's it has and not the TF, that's going to look even worse. I mean MS is already using terms like custom Scorpio Engine processor for XB1X, making sure not to mention Jaguar. PS can use whatever direct terminology for PS5 and it's not really going to matter for them, even if the TF count is lower than Scarlett. Pro was 42% less powerful on paper than XB1X and it really didn't impact them. New gen or not, with BC in the mix plus the PS4 brother's staying relevant and tied to PS5, marketing for Scarlett is going to be tough in terms of hardware.



I remember MS saying that scarlet would be 4x more powerful than one X. But I dont have idea what it means, seems that is not in Tflops.

Also, I remember Xbox launching with 1.3Tflops, and PS4 with 1.84, and they were almost the same visually. Better frame rate in one, better resolution in other, but they were par. Seems that 8 to 12 Tflops would be the same situation. 4 Tflops (a PS4 pro) of difference and the machines would still be on par.



We might have a more modern architecture compared to the Navi cards soon to be released, but don't expect it to be more powerful than the RX 5700 cards, specially if their power consumption is confirmed to match their thermal specs. I would expect something more in the 7 - 8 TF range. Unless these consoles are heavily subsidized or/and $500.



 

 

 

 

 

EricHiggin said:
HollyGamer said:

LOL, this is so true. Microsoft got a powerful hardware on the mid gen refresh but it's actually will hit back them as soon next gen coming. If Microsoft want they can just wait for 2021 or 2022, but they need to have early start or at least compete at the same timeframe with PS5 to get the hype. Sony in the other hand like you said is actually more relax. Even they can just said "we are happy PS5 is 2X the power of Pro and sell it with 8 teraflop ",  even though 8 teraflop Navi is like 12 to 13 teraflop Vega/GCN. Microsoft will be difficult to reach 12 teraflop with Navi 7nm (it need at least 7 nm EUV (7+) small design that will not available until 2020 and 2021 for release. So Microsoft will be hard to sell it for casual or normal consumer that dont understand PC spec or not following PC tech. 

I'd imagine they would both stick with 7nm since the yields by next year should be acceptable in time for production for the holidays. If one company was going to shoot for 7nm+ I think it would be MS. They are likely to sell less consoles in general, especially if they come out with a higher performing more expensive console, so they could deal with lower yields and not worry as much about cost, even if it meant absorbing a little more early on. This would be what MS would need to guarantee they end up with the strongest console head to head next holiday, if both are looking to sell for around $499. Scarlett either wouldn't be all that much more powerful, or would be, though more heavily subsidized. Now if PS5 was around 8TF, and Scarlett ended up around 12TF, then you can almost bet that PS will keep PS5 $100 cheaper than Scarlett, so is that worth it for MS in terms of marketing? I would guess that MS would rather use 7nm and just make the cooling beefier and console larger if they need to instead, which should help it remain more cost competitive on the shelf.

If MS doesn't at least double the TF number for Scarlett it will look bad on them. If they don't focus on it, or use another indicator like Navi or how many CU's it has and not the TF, that's going to look even worse. I mean MS is already using terms like custom Scorpio Engine processor for XB1X, making sure not to mention Jaguar. PS can use whatever direct terminology for PS5 and it's not really going to matter for them, even if the TF count is lower than Scarlett. Pro was 42% less powerful on paper than XB1X and it really didn't impact them. New gen or not, with BC in the mix plus the PS4 brother's staying relevant and tied to PS5, marketing for Scarlett is going to be tough in terms of hardware.

If Microsoft able  jump to 7nm+ than there is no reason Sony cannot, because actually 7nm + is more cheaper for the long run for both company and both are releasing at the same time frame (unlike Xbox One X that release latter after PS4 pro). Because i also have hunch both will targeted 7nm + due to release date and several news that 7nm+ already available on Samsung this month for mass produce  and TSMC will be available late this year or early next year. 

The problem is  the devkit and the test chip for the 7nm+ APU, they need to get at least 1 year or 6 month prior to launch, and none of manufacturing company able to produce in early 2019. That is why many forum dweller are pessimist that Sony and Xbox are using just normal 7 nm for devkit and for the final design. 

For the price i think both will targeted at the same price and Sony also willing to subsidize more this time (they are focusing next gen on hardcore gaming is the prove for this) So we will see both ended up the same spec and the same price.