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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Goodby Teraflop (PS5 and Xbox Scarlet probably will not contest on Teraflop number anymore) expect 8 to 9 teraflop for PS5 and Scarlet

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What do you think with these teraflop number

Yes 1 2.94%
 
No 0 0%
 
i don't care teraflop , i... 19 55.88%
 
I am expecting more 6 17.65%
 
These within my expecation 4 11.76%
 
I am impressed we get mor... 2 5.88%
 
I still believe even with... 2 5.88%
 
Total:34
Lafiel said:
thismeintiel said:

Well, it is MS we're talking about. You know, the company that had fake devkits, ones that were more powerful than the XBO, running playable demos of games. Games that were than downgraded to be able to run on the actual HW. Even taking said fake demo onto Jimmy Fallon for him to play.

My guess is that they probably ran a benchmark test on the CPU and got ~4x the score that the X got, so stated that as actual overall performance.

dev kits being more capable than the actual console is normal, as devs needs a healthy overhead for analytics programs, debugging software etc etc

at E3 there were contradictory statements what "4x more powerful" means, Phil afaik said this was based on CPU performance, Matt Booty said it was a combination of several factors like CPU,GPU,SSD and RAM

Sure, but you actually show a true representation of what the final game will look like. MS didn't like that the PS4 was more powerful, so they faked that their games wouldn't look any different. The first Forza on XBO is a very good example of the extent they went to to lie about the power difference.



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vivster said:
HoloDust said:

You can do very simple comparisson actually to this gen.

March 2012 - HD 7870 (which is, more or less, what's  in PS4) - 175W - $350

July 2019 - RX 5700 - 180W - $379

That would put PS5 at $399.

If there is some additional hadrware block for RT, that would be somewhat decent, though still pretty weak for proper transition to 4K.

But an RX5700 wouldn't put the PS5 in the range of a 2070, which was my point. Add to that the additional possible chips and their super duper SSD it's easy to see that we won't get 2070 levels of performance on a $400 price point.

I wish Sony would just put out an expensive version that has the hardware cranked up and costs $500 or more but I'm not holding my breath. The thing is, even with a 2070 doing 4k60fps is a very tough ask. I believe lots of people are expecting to see 4k60 across the board and they're gonna be very disappointed.

I think with all the "niche" and "hardcore gamer" talk from Sony, it's pretty obvious the PS5 isn't going to be just $399.



HollyGamer said:
DonFerrari said:

We don't have source to say MS was spinning or lying.

But if they were saying it's 4x more powerful because of creative math, or let's say they put something better than potato CPU that would disengenuous.

Maybe you still remember "the powah of the cloud "

But seriously , we still don't know the exact number it perhaps they can achieve that number who knows? but common sense said it's almost impossible to have 4X of 6 teraflop number even more on Navi teraflop number. But it will be another funny memes if Xbox Scarlet is less powerful  than what they trying to promote. LOL 

Well I do remember The Cloud Power. And I wouldn't put it besides MS to spin the truth. But until we can be certain I'll give the benefit of doubt and expect a system that is roughly 4x better than X1X, or about 16x better than X1, which was a reasonable jump gen-to gen (a little above usual 8-10x)

thismeintiel said:
DonFerrari said:

We don't have source to say MS was spinning or lying.

But if they were saying it's 4x more powerful because of creative math, or let's say they put something better than potato CPU that would disengenuous.

Well, it is MS we're talking about. You know, the company that had fake devkits, ones that were more powerful than the XBO, running playable demos of games. Games that were than downgraded to be able to run on the actual HW. Even taking said fake demo onto Jimmy Fallon for him to play.

My guess is that they probably ran a benchmark test on the CPU and got ~4x the score that the X got, so stated that as actual overall performance.

That would be a bad behavior, but with precedent.

Lafiel said:
thismeintiel said:

Well, it is MS we're talking about. You know, the company that had fake devkits, ones that were more powerful than the XBO, running playable demos of games. Games that were than downgraded to be able to run on the actual HW. Even taking said fake demo onto Jimmy Fallon for him to play.

My guess is that they probably ran a benchmark test on the CPU and got ~4x the score that the X got, so stated that as actual overall performance.

dev kits being more capable than the actual console is normal, as devs needs a healthy overhead for analytics programs, debugging software etc etc

at E3 there were contradictory statements what "4x more powerful" means, Phil afaik said this was based on CPU performance, Matt Booty said it was a combination of several factors like CPU,GPU,SSD and RAM

Yes dev kits usually will have more memory or features than regular units. But you don't run games that won't be able on the real HW to claim they are the real game just to lie to everyone.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Thank goodness. I always disliked "Teraflops". It sounds like Hippy footwear. So uncool. I hope they ll come up with something more hip sounding. Like Turbo Blast Processing X5... or something...



Hunting Season is done...

Zoombael said:
Thank goodness. I always disliked "Teraflops". It sounds like Hippy footwear. So uncool. I hope they ll come up with something more hip sounding. Like Turbo Blast Processing X5... or something...

Well Cerny already talk no loading times and Ray tracing including sound ray tracing 4K 60fps, 8k , and 120 fps . Also secret sauce will be more important jargon this time , but i believe console vendor will just compare directly to their previous console. For us hardcore and enthusiast the hype will be coming from comparison from gaming news and site like Digital Foundry and gaming forum. Actually it's a lot easy to hype console in these day and age using social media and Internet , unlike past generation. 



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Lafiel said:
thismeintiel said:

Well, it is MS we're talking about. You know, the company that had fake devkits, ones that were more powerful than the XBO, running playable demos of games. Games that were than downgraded to be able to run on the actual HW. Even taking said fake demo onto Jimmy Fallon for him to play.

My guess is that they probably ran a benchmark test on the CPU and got ~4x the score that the X got, so stated that as actual overall performance.

dev kits being more capable than the actual console is normal, as devs needs a healthy overhead for analytics programs, debugging software etc etc

at E3 there were contradictory statements what "4x more powerful" means, Phil afaik said this was based on CPU performance, Matt Booty said it was a combination of several factors like CPU,GPU,SSD and RAM

The SSD is like a 60-70x increase in bandwidth... And just as impressive on the latency reductions too.

CPU performance should be a no-brainer. 8x-10x depending on the clockrates of the Zen 2 8-core chip and the instructions/workload.

GPU is probably around double the performance of the Xbox One X at most, significantly more once we start talking Ray Tracing.

Memory bandwidth we are probably looking at 50% to double the bandwidth of the Xbox One X, depending how wide they take the bus... But it is likely to be closer to 50%.

It's the storage and CPU that we will see the largest leap with, no doubt about it.

HollyGamer said:
vivster said:
Anything 10 or above TFLOPS was only ever purported by people who couldn't even spell GPU. Still very skeptical that we will get anything that can go toe to toe with a 2070. Console makers don't very much like power in their consoles so something around a 2060 seems more reasonable.

10 teraflop is achievable on the current size and power tdp for APU. Because it will just slightly more 44 cu or 48 cu to achieve 10 teraflop. The problem is when it will targeted above 48 CU (56 to 52), because it size will be more than 420 mm^ .

The problem are we still don't know what manufacturing process Sony and Microsoft will use for their APU. Will it be 7nm or 7nm+, also the final APU chip size for both. I bet if they are willing to lose money on early release year, they can easily achieve 10 to 11. 

At the current progress actually RX 5700 Xt already slightly more powerful or on par with RTX 2070 on benchmark , the final chip for PS5 according to leak  are close to RTX 2080 in firestrikes benchmark. I can see 2070 are hit the mark, now i wish they can push more to at least more closer to RTX 2080. So by the end of 2020 PS5 will compete with RTX 3070 and not with mainstream GPU RTX 3060. unlike PS4 that competed with GTX 660 (Nvidia mainstream GPU )when PS4 was released in 2013. 

Flops is unimportant, always has. In saying that... AMD's fastest clock on a GPU is the Navi-based 5700XT with it's 1680mhz base clock. You would need 48 CU's at 1680Mhz to break that 10 Teraflop barrier. (Number of CU's * Shaders * 2 Instructions * Clockspeed)

7nm is what they will be using, it's what is ramping up now... They will be months building up chip inventory before the consoles launch, so they need to use what is feasible right now... And that is 7nm.

The GPU side of the equation, the faster the better. Hopefully the next-gen consoles can beat the 4-year old (by that point) Geforce 1080 upon release... But one thing we need to keep in mind is that... Even though the next-gen consoles are based on the PC's Navi GPU, they have a plethora of enhancements which means they are not directly comparable in benchmarks.


vivster said:

But an RX5700 wouldn't put the PS5 in the range of a 2070, which was my point. Add to that the additional possible chips and their super duper SSD it's easy to see that we won't get 2070 levels of performance on a $400 price point.

I wish Sony would just put out an expensive version that has the hardware cranked up and costs $500 or more but I'm not holding my breath. The thing is, even with a 2070 doing 4k60fps is a very tough ask. I believe lots of people are expecting to see 4k60 across the board and they're gonna be very disappointed.

The Geforce 2070 is pretty much upper-mid range in performance now... And by 2020 will definitely be a mid-range part with a Geforce 3060 likely being it's equal.
Shows how far back AMD is currently in the GPU space... But at-least they are smashing it out in the CPU space.

I don't expect a $400 USD price point though, I think $500 is the likely target.

DonFerrari said:

Well I do remember The Cloud Power. And I wouldn't put it besides MS to spin the truth. But until we can be certain I'll give the benefit of doubt and expect a system that is roughly 4x better than X1X, or about 16x better than X1, which was a reasonable jump gen-to gen (a little above usual 8-10x)

I think every console manufacturer is kinda' guilty about "spinning" the truth of their platforms capabilities to some degree or another.

Even doubling the Xbox One X's GPU capabilities is still an impressive task though... One thing we need to keep in mind is that games released for the Playstation 4 Pro and Xbox One X are not utilizing the hardware from the bottom-up, games are still very much designed with the base Xbox One and PlayStation 4 consoles in mind... The next-gen hardware won't have that problem once we are fully transitioned into the 9th gen, so games should look significantly better than the hardware leap relative to the mid-gen refresh consoles would otherwise imply.

HollyGamer said:

Well Cerny already talk no loading times and Ray tracing including sound ray tracing 4K 60fps, 8k , and 120 fps . Also secret sauce will be more important jargon this time , but i believe console vendor will just compare directly to their previous console. For us hardcore and enthusiast the hype will be coming from comparison from gaming news and site like Digital Foundry and gaming forum. Actually it's a lot easy to hype console in these day and age using social media and Internet , unlike past generation. 

Ray Traced sound is not a new thing. I hope that isn't a buzz word that people cling to entering next-gen without an actual understanding of it's ramifications. Haha

Sony is likely piggybacking off AMD's True-Audio though, so the Xbox should have the same capability.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:

HollyGamer said:

10 teraflop is achievable on the current size and power tdp for APU. Because it will just slightly more 44 cu or 48 cu to achieve 10 teraflop. The problem is when it will targeted above 48 CU (56 to 52), because it size will be more than 420 mm^ .

The problem are we still don't know what manufacturing process Sony and Microsoft will use for their APU. Will it be 7nm or 7nm+, also the final APU chip size for both. I bet if they are willing to lose money on early release year, they can easily achieve 10 to 11. 

At the current progress actually RX 5700 Xt already slightly more powerful or on par with RTX 2070 on benchmark , the final chip for PS5 according to leak  are close to RTX 2080 in firestrikes benchmark. I can see 2070 are hit the mark, now i wish they can push more to at least more closer to RTX 2080. So by the end of 2020 PS5 will compete with RTX 3070 and not with mainstream GPU RTX 3060. unlike PS4 that competed with GTX 660 (Nvidia mainstream GPU )when PS4 was released in 2013. 

Flops is unimportant, always has. In saying that... AMD's fastest clock on a GPU is the Navi-based 5700XT with it's 1680mhz base clock. You would need 48 CU's at 1680Mhz to break that 10 Teraflop barrier. (Number of CU's * Shaders * 2 Instructions * Clockspeed)

7nm is what they will be using, it's what is ramping up now... They will be months building up chip inventory before the consoles launch, so they need to use what is feasible right now... And that is 7nm.

The GPU side of the equation, the faster the better. Hopefully the next-gen consoles can beat the 4-year old (by that point) Geforce 1080 upon release... But one thing we need to keep in mind is that... Even though the next-gen consoles are based on the PC's Navi GPU, they have a plethora of enhancements which means they are not directly comparable in benchmarks.


HollyGamer said:

Well Cerny already talk no loading times and Ray tracing including sound ray tracing 4K 60fps, 8k , and 120 fps . Also secret sauce will be more important jargon this time , but i believe console vendor will just compare directly to their previous console. For us hardcore and enthusiast the hype will be coming from comparison from gaming news and site like Digital Foundry and gaming forum. Actually it's a lot easy to hype console in these day and age using social media and Internet , unlike past generation. 

Ray Traced sound is not a new thing. I hope that isn't a buzz word that people cling to entering next-gen without an actual understanding of it's ramifications. Haha

Sony is likely piggybacking off AMD's True-Audio though, so the Xbox should have the same capability.

Flops is not important,  but can be a measurement for a certain degree, who wouldn't want a 10 teraflop Navi GPU inside console?  Even Xbox One X is 6 teraflop and 2 teraflop more than PS4 Pro and have an advantage over PS4 Pro in real world performance. 

7nm+ is feasible on 2020 , remember PS4 Pro ? They release  PS4 Pro at the same time frame with the release of RX 480 where the fabrication of 14nm just hit the market . Sony if they wanted they can just release this year PS5 with RX 5700 or RX 5700 Xt inside their console easily with 7nm. That's why there is still a big possibility if they delay the console to 2020 they are planning to use  7nm+ . 

Based on the leak, Gonzalo already faster than 1080 , it means it's equal or slightly less to normal 2070 without RT. Next year Nvidia probably will release 3000 series GPU , so RTX 3060 probably going to end up as strong as RTX 2070. So PS5 will be comparable to RTX 3060 next year the budget line up and budget price like usual. 

The bottom line i would expect PS5 will be just another PS4 like in 2013 by having mid/mainstream GPU power to compete next year, but with better CPU this time and SSD. But my dream and hope is PS5 could at least compete with mid to high GPU like RTX 3070 or RTX 2080 in raw power and dont care for the price and ready to pay 499 to 599 USD. 

Ray tracing is not new thing but for gaming especially on console, it is still holy grail for mainstream gamer. But i doubt they will just selling console only for RT, that's why i am just saying that's just  for the example, they can still sell the "no loading time" or 4k and 8k or 120 fps. Hell even on Sony side their reputation as the best play games for exclusives is still unbeatable even if Scarlet ended up 3 times more powerful than PS5 LOL. They just need to say "we got better exclusives quality and quantity" that is more than enough. Hell even PS4 backward compatibility already ensure PS5 will sell as much PS4 if not more.



PS5/Scarlet won't be doing 8k (or 120fps) on anything beyond extremely simple games. Heck, I bet a lot of AAA games won't even be native/locked 4K on them, just like plenty of PS4/Xbone games ran below 1080p.

Last edited by curl-6 - on 03 July 2019

Bet with Liquidlaser: I say PS5 and Xbox Series will sell more than 56 million combined by the end of 2023.

curl-6 said:

PS5/Scarlet won't be doing 8k (or 120fps) on anything beyond extremely simple games. Heck, I bet a lot of AAA games won't even be native/locked 4K on them, just like plenty of PS4/Xbone games ran below 1080p.

Native 4k 60fps is more than possible on PS5 and Xbox Scarlet, even with 6 teraflop GCN Xbox One X already achieve native native 4k on heavy title like Red Dead Redemption 2. 8k is another thing, it's 4 times of 4k and probably it's only supported for just indies and simple games (like mobile phones graphic games) or probably just for video files . 120 fps games also possible on PS5 and Xbox Scarlet,  just make the games run at 1080p and it will be easily run the games at 120fps. 



HollyGamer said:
curl-6 said:

PS5/Scarlet won't be doing 8k (or 120fps) on anything beyond extremely simple games. Heck, I bet a lot of AAA games won't even be native/locked 4K on them, just like plenty of PS4/Xbone games ran below 1080p.

Native 4k 60fps is more than possible on PS5 and Xbox Scarlet, even with 6 teraflop GCN Xbox One X already achieve native native 4k on heavy title like Red Dead Redemption 2. 8k is another thing, it's 4 times of 4k and probably it's only supported for just indies and simple games (like mobile phones graphic games) or probably just for video files . 120 fps games also possible on PS5 and Xbox Scarlet,  just make the games run at 1080p and it will be easily run the games at 120fps. 

I never said 4K/60fps won't be possible, but most AAA games will not run at that spec. It's not as simple as just making it 1080p, you'd also have to slice CPU processing time to 1/4 of a 30fps game, so only simplistic games will be able to be 120fps.



Bet with Liquidlaser: I say PS5 and Xbox Series will sell more than 56 million combined by the end of 2023.