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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Goodby Teraflop (PS5 and Xbox Scarlet probably will not contest on Teraflop number anymore) expect 8 to 9 teraflop for PS5 and Scarlet

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What do you think with these teraflop number

Yes 1 2.94%
 
No 0 0%
 
i don't care teraflop , i... 19 55.88%
 
I am expecting more 6 17.65%
 
These within my expecation 4 11.76%
 
I am impressed we get mor... 2 5.88%
 
I still believe even with... 2 5.88%
 
Total:34
vivster said:
HollyGamer said:

10 teraflop is achievable on the current size and power tdp for APU. Because it will just slightly more 44 cu or 48 cu to achieve 10 teraflop. The problem is when it will targeted above 48 CU (56 to 52), because it size will be more than 420 mm^ .

The problem are we still don't know what manufacturing process Sony and Microsoft will use for their APU. Will it be 7nm or 7nm+, also the final APU chip size for both. I bet if they are willing to lose money on early release year, they can easily achieve 10 to 11. 

At the current progress actually RX 5700 Xt already slightly more powerful or on par with RTX 2070 on benchmark , the final chip for PS5 according to leak  are close to RTX 2080 in firestrikes benchmark. I can see 2070 are hit the mark, now i wish they can push more to at least more closer to RTX 2080. So by the end of 2020 PS5 will compete with RTX 3070 and not with mainstream GPU RTX 3060. unlike PS4 that competed with GTX 660 (Nvidia mainstream GPU )when PS4 was released in 2013. 

You need to stop looking at PC GPUs and start thinking about what Sony and Microsoft will actually put in their consoles. It's absolutely irrelevant what Navi is capable of, what matters is what cut down version of it they will put into their consoles to have an affordable product. I can't see anything close to 2070 unless they come right out of the gates with a $500+ Pro model.

You can do very simple comparisson actually to this gen.

March 2012 - HD 7870 (which is, more or less, what's  in PS4) - 175W - $350

July 2019 - RX 5700 - 180W - $379

That would put PS5 at $399.

If there is some additional hadrware block for RT, that would be somewhat decent, though still pretty weak for proper transition to 4K.



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HoloDust said:
vivster said:

You need to stop looking at PC GPUs and start thinking about what Sony and Microsoft will actually put in their consoles. It's absolutely irrelevant what Navi is capable of, what matters is what cut down version of it they will put into their consoles to have an affordable product. I can't see anything close to 2070 unless they come right out of the gates with a $500+ Pro model.

You can do very simple comparisson actually to this gen.

March 2012 - HD 7870 (which is, more or less, what's  in PS4) - 175W - $350

July 2019 - RX 5700 - 180W - $379

That would put PS5 at $399.

If there is some additional hadrware block for RT, that would be somewhat decent, though still pretty weak for proper transition to 4K.

But an RX5700 wouldn't put the PS5 in the range of a 2070, which was my point. Add to that the additional possible chips and their super duper SSD it's easy to see that we won't get 2070 levels of performance on a $400 price point.

I wish Sony would just put out an expensive version that has the hardware cranked up and costs $500 or more but I'm not holding my breath. The thing is, even with a 2070 doing 4k60fps is a very tough ask. I believe lots of people are expecting to see 4k60 across the board and they're gonna be very disappointed.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

vivster said:

The thing is, even with a 2070 doing 4k60fps is a very tough ask. I believe lots of people are expecting to see 4k60 across the board and they're gonna be very disappointed.

60fps is never going to be standard on console. I remember it being claimed/hoped of every new generation since the days of the N64 that "next gen will be 60fps as standard" and it never happens. Most AAA devs will always choose to double their rendering budget by going with 30fps.



Bet with Liquidlaser: I say PS5 and Xbox Series will sell more than 56 million combined by the end of 2023.

vivster said:
HoloDust said:

You can do very simple comparisson actually to this gen.

March 2012 - HD 7870 (which is, more or less, what's  in PS4) - 175W - $350

July 2019 - RX 5700 - 180W - $379

That would put PS5 at $399.

If there is some additional hadrware block for RT, that would be somewhat decent, though still pretty weak for proper transition to 4K.

But an RX5700 wouldn't put the PS5 in the range of a 2070, which was my point. Add to that the additional possible chips and their super duper SSD it's easy to see that we won't get 2070 levels of performance on a $400 price point.

I wish Sony would just put out an expensive version that has the hardware cranked up and costs $500 or more but I'm not holding my breath. The thing is, even with a 2070 doing 4k60fps is a very tough ask. I believe lots of people are expecting to see 4k60 across the board and they're gonna be very disappointed.

Honestly, no idea how RX 5700 will perform - on paper, when you look at all the specs, it should be able to perform as well as 2070 - but I have no idea if their architectural improvements finally managed to put them at nVidia's level of efficiency

As for 4K60fps - it's possible, but pointless if they want any significant visual improvements. For PS5 and Scarlett to have same leap as PS4 to PS360 (roughly speaking), when it's all taken into account (generational visual improvements and resolution bump), we should be talking about 22+ (GCN1) TFLOPS, and they won't be anywhere near that.

Personally, due to those SSDs, I mostly hope for at least some lateral moves in next gen - specifically, navigating massive voxel octrees would be possible, and that would make for fully destructable, yet persistent worlds with fairly fine resolution.



curl-6 said:
vivster said:

The thing is, even with a 2070 doing 4k60fps is a very tough ask. I believe lots of people are expecting to see 4k60 across the board and they're gonna be very disappointed.

60fps is never going to be standard on console. I remember it being claimed/hoped of every new generation since the days of the N64 that "next gen will be 60fps as standard" and it never happens. Most AAA devs will always choose to double their rendering budget by going with 30fps.

And if that truth isn't sad enough, we probably won't ever have any chance to choose between performance and visuals even though that's easily possible. But I guess giving people options would be a death sentence for consoles.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

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vivster said:
HollyGamer said:

10 teraflop is achievable on the current size and power tdp for APU. Because it will just slightly more 44 cu or 48 cu to achieve 10 teraflop. The problem is when it will targeted above 48 CU (56 to 52), because it size will be more than 420 mm^ .

The problem are we still don't know what manufacturing process Sony and Microsoft will use for their APU. Will it be 7nm or 7nm+, also the final APU chip size for both. I bet if they are willing to lose money on early release year, they can easily achieve 10 to 11. 

At the current progress actually RX 5700 Xt already slightly more powerful or on par with RTX 2070 on benchmark , the final chip for PS5 according to leak  are close to RTX 2080 in firestrikes benchmark. I can see 2070 are hit the mark, now i wish they can push more to at least more closer to RTX 2080. So by the end of 2020 PS5 will compete with RTX 3070 and not with mainstream GPU RTX 3060. unlike PS4 that competed with GTX 660 (Nvidia mainstream GPU )when PS4 was released in 2013. 

You need to stop looking at PC GPUs and start thinking about what Sony and Microsoft will actually put in their consoles. It's absolutely irrelevant what Navi is capable of, what matters is what cut down version of it they will put into their consoles to have an affordable product. I can't see anything close to 2070 unless they come right out of the gates with a $500+ Pro model.

499 USD price is given for PS5 and Xbox Scarlet, why would you suggest 399 USD console price if price are already inflated everywhere and we are not living on 2013 . PS1 on 1995 with 299 USD price if we count to this year inflation already at 500 USD and more. 

So yes PS5 and Xbox Scarlet will be at 499 as base model and targeted above RTX 2070 performance. The test chip (Gonzalo ) already did that base on the newest info and news. 



HoloDust said:
vivster said:

You need to stop looking at PC GPUs and start thinking about what Sony and Microsoft will actually put in their consoles. It's absolutely irrelevant what Navi is capable of, what matters is what cut down version of it they will put into their consoles to have an affordable product. I can't see anything close to 2070 unless they come right out of the gates with a $500+ Pro model.

You can do very simple comparisson actually to this gen.

March 2012 - HD 7870 (which is, more or less, what's  in PS4) - 175W - $350

July 2019 - RX 5700 - 180W - $379

That would put PS5 at $399.

If there is some additional hadrware block for RT, that would be somewhat decent, though still pretty weak for proper transition to 4K.

That's why we need to put an end to 399 USD price for everything, everything already expensive and 350 USD price for GPU is not for mainstream GPU anymore but for low end, PS5 and Xbox Scarlet will targeted for mainstream with price standard at 499 USD which is the new entry for base console standard. And also there wont be additional block of RT i believe, because the tech implementation for RT will be different from Nvidia, AMD will be using a hybrid hardware and software RT solution . It means less additional RT block with more optimization on software level. 



vivster said:
curl-6 said:

60fps is never going to be standard on console. I remember it being claimed/hoped of every new generation since the days of the N64 that "next gen will be 60fps as standard" and it never happens. Most AAA devs will always choose to double their rendering budget by going with 30fps.

And if that truth isn't sad enough, we probably won't ever have any chance to choose between performance and visuals even though that's easily possible. But I guess giving people options would be a death sentence for consoles.

I don't know if PS5 or Xbox Scarlet will allow you to choose an option , because PS4 pro and Xbox One X already allow gamer to do that. PS5 and Xbox Scarlet might have some option for gamers to choose probably and that is depend on the game developer of course. 



HollyGamer said:
HoloDust said:

You can do very simple comparisson actually to this gen.

March 2012 - HD 7870 (which is, more or less, what's  in PS4) - 175W - $350

July 2019 - RX 5700 - 180W - $379

That would put PS5 at $399.

If there is some additional hadrware block for RT, that would be somewhat decent, though still pretty weak for proper transition to 4K.

That's why we need to put an end to 399 USD price for everything, everything already expensive and 350 USD price for GPU is not for mainstream GPU anymore but for low end, PS5 and Xbox Scarlet will targeted for mainstream with price standard at 499 USD which is the new entry for base console standard. And also there wont be additional block of RT i believe, because the tech implementation for RT will be different from Nvidia, AMD will be using a hybrid hardware and software RT solution . It means less additional RT block with more optimization on software level. 

That's a wierd view on price brackets and performance those cards offer, $350 is defnintely not low end, current low end is something like RX 570 which is around $160-$170, with 1050ti (@ around $140) probably being lowest end you'll see in benchmarks.

But yes, move from $399 is long overdue.



HollyGamer said:
haxxiy said:

I think it will save to say PS5 and Xbox Scarlet  will be around 499 USD due to inflation alone. And all price already expensive, and even mainstream GPU price is now above 399 USD (back then it was around 250 to 300 USD).  So if PS5 and Scarlet targeted at 399,  PS5 and Xbox could ended underpowered and less jump in performance compared to 7th gen transition to 8th gen, PS5 and Xbox need to at least targeted price around 499 USD. 

The jump in performance was always going to be smaller. Three and a half node shrinks versus two shrinks. That's simple physics, right there. Although one could reasonably argue the PS4 and the XB1 erred on the conservative side as far as their APUs were concerned, perhaps overcorrecting from what had happened in the seventh generation. So the leap could be larger at the expense of power consumption.

Another thing to keep in mind: the leap in cost, per mm2, from 28 or 14 nm to the 7 nm node. The cost of a ~300 mm2 chip in 7 nm is significantly higher than the cost of a 28 nm chip of the same size. Potentially enough that the route of higher clocks and a more expensive cooling solution would be preferred instead of trying to fit more CUs in there.