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Forums - Politics Discussion - Official 2020 US Election: Democratic Party Discussion

0% chance Warren (or Sanders) drop out before the likes of Booker or O'Rourke. Given their personalities and support, I say they're riding this to the end no matter what, like Cruz and Kasich.



 

 

 

 

 

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Jaicee said:
Jumpin said:
I understand the symbolism of Sanders and Warren going for small donors, but honestly, it's a really stupid strategy and they're playing with a handicap against Trump. The better strategy would be to play the game, and pledge that election reform will be one of the top priorities.

Biden recovered due to the second debate, and the reason was that everyone (except like Inslee and Yang) was focusing on him, more stupid strategies because it puts the attention is on him - allows him the opportunity to respond; politicians generally can win all exchanges because Biden isn't really doing anything outrageous, the best attack was Kamala Harris's in the first debate round where she criticized him for a statement he made 42 years ago. I had NO idea that was 42 years ago, and that's the reason it was effective because people are ignorant (like me). Digging a little bit more into it his intent was not even meant to be racist, he literally believed that laws stating that black kids being forced to sit with white kids was racist for the implication that black kids in the US could only be equal by being forced to sit with white kids... no doubt ignorant on his part, but it was (in the end) a really nasty sort of attack that really should have been called out by the debate moderators as a foul. Also, dumb of Kamala Harris trying the same attack again in round two of the debates because Biden had a similar record attack to fling right back at her.

Anyway, if the other candidates really don't want Biden to win, they have to stop giving him all this extra stage time and focus on debating the actual issues of relevance giving their OWN perspectives, rather than focusing on what Biden did when he was a young man. What happened during that debate is we got to learn more about Yang, Inslee, and Joe Biden; we didn't learn anything about the positions of the others or why they're good.

Speaking as an Elizabeth Warren supporter here, were she to do as you suggest and start accepting corporate donations, she would instantly become a less appealing candidate to me. The thing for Warren and Sanders is that being the economic populist candidates is a defining part of their brand. If they start accepting donations from major business corporations, they'll tend to lose credibility with their existing supporters because they'll be viewed as compromised. And that wouldn'b be a delusion either: they would, in fact, become compromised. It's not a coincidence that all the candidates who DO attend high-dollar fundraisers and all that are also candidates who are both rhetorically and substantively softer on the rich and powerful in this country at the expense of poor and working people.

My point is that I don't foresee candidates like Warren or Sanders gaining any additional supporters by making the kind of "pragmatic" change you're proposing. I can see them only losing most of their existing supporters if they do.

But why? It's not logical to think that receiving extra campaign donations will change their views.

I agree the system is broken and needs to be redone, but it's because it gives a lopsided advantage to your Trumps, Howard Schultzs, and Romneys because their large donors are much more numerous. I don't see how on earth more money to the donations of their campaigns will do anything to impact Warren or Sanders; other than give them more lawn signs and banner advertisements. The only reason they would get large donations is that the people giving those donations really want them to win.

The irony is that the campaigns of Warren and Sanders are VOLUNTARILY even more compromised now because now they're not just playing the game handicapped, but with a greater handicap. They're cutting off worker unions and leftist organizations from making big money donations to their own campaigns, while not doing ANYTHING to prevent corporations from making big money donations to their candidates.



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Mnementh said:
jason1637 said:
I predict Biden will probably end up winning the primary but things could always change.
I think most will drop but I could see Biden, Sanders, Yang, and Harris in it for the majority/all of the primary.

I think Biden has an about 30% chance to win the primary. That leaves a 70% chance for the other candidates.

Well if the primary started today Biden would 100% win so i'd say his chances of winning are far higher than 30%.



jason1637 said:
Mnementh said:

I think Biden has an about 30% chance to win the primary. That leaves a 70% chance for the other candidates.

Well if the primary started today Biden would 100% win so i'd say his chances of winning are far higher than 30%.

Yet it doesn't start today. Therefore we have the situation we have. If the primaries were closer more people had made a clear decision and the polls would more stable. If the primaries were closer more people would've endorsed and so we had a clearer picture of endorsement preferences. But the primaries are still a long way away aand a lot is still in the flow. Has Biden the best position currently? Undoubtely. But he hasn't the thing in the bag yet, far from it.



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Chances of nomination according to 538 based on historical data. Blue line is 100% name recognition, red line 50% name recognition. According to Morning Consult, all candidates are above 50% name recognition except for someone called "Seth Moulton". Sanders, Biden, Warren, Harris are around or above 90%. Looking pretty good for Uncle Joe - mind that primaries usually have smaller fields, as well, so his chances are higher than the graph suggests on all likehood.



 

 

 

 

 

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SpokenTruth said:
haxxiy said:

Chances of nomination according to 538 based on historical data. Blue line is 100% name recognition, red line 50% name recognition. According to Morning Consult, all candidates are above 50% name recognition except for someone called "Seth Moulton". Sanders, Biden, Warren, Harris are around or above 90%. Looking pretty good for Uncle Joe - mind that primaries usually have smaller fields, as well, so his chances are higher than the graph suggests on all likehood.

That reads weird.

For instance, if you had high name recognition with early polling at 30%, you'd have a 40% chance of nomination. But if you had low name recognition with early polling at 30%, you'd have a 90% change of nomination?  How the hell?  Are they saying at the same early polling rate, the lower name recognition candidate has a much higher chance at nomination?

Why, of course. Because it means people are far more likely to vote for a given candidate once they know about them.

Imagine if someone has 30% of the vote with 50% name recognition. Do you believe they'll be stuck there once everyone knows about them?

Now, the opposite situation - what happened with Jeb!. Evidently, Jeb! polling at 3% is a far greater failure, and far less likely to become a nominee, than someone like Gabbard with 62% recognition polling at 3%.



 

 

 

 

 

Jaicee said:

Here's a more detailed prediction of how I think the primary season will go:

1) All but perhaps the top-polling seven or eight candidates drop out before the Iowa Caucus.

2) Biden and Sanders win the Iowa and New Hampshire contests.

3) Elizabeth Warren and Pete Buttigieg drop out, benefiting Kamala Harris and Bernie Sanders respectively.

4) Biden wins in South Carolina.

5) Cory Booker drops out, benefiting Kamala Harris.

6) Biden wins in California and Texas.

7) Kamala Harris and Beto O'Rourke drop out, mostly benefiting Biden and ensuring his victory.

I see step 1 happening, and 4, and eventually 5, but there's no way Warren drops out before California. I recall her campaign indicating something to this effect back when she was fading in the polls and nowhere near Bernie, so now that she's tied for or possibly straight up second place, that plan will definitely hold. If O'Rourke hangs in until Texas, I foresee him eating into Biden's potential vote there, pulling Biden down enough that he doesn't win Texas. Multiple polls have shown that Kamala Harris dropping out would benefit Warren more than Biden or Sanders. I'd guess this is because she tends to attract a certain kind of "progressive" that really wants a woman in the white house regardless of her economic policy preferences, and are only voting Kamala over Warren because they'd rather see a woman of color for intersectionality reasons, but would vote Warren if Kamala dropped out. If Warren holds until California as I believe she will, I think she'll stand a genuine chance of beating Kamala, which would probably make Kamala drop out, and if the polls I've seen are correct, this would be to Warren's benefit and provide a second wind for the campaign. As for the first contests, I don't see Biden or Sanders as shoe-ins for them yet.



Jumpin said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

I disagree on the whole thing.

I mean, who would you rather vote for? Somebody who got financed through small donors or somebody who's in the pockets of corporations and their lobbies and thus will do their bidding, good or bad?

I am not even sure how that question is relevant. If you were to ask, would I vote for Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders, the answer is yes, and it wouldn't be relevant to me how they got their campaign finance dollars. The reason big donation campaign finance is broken is because it gives a lopsided advantage to the wealthy to donate to candidates to serve their interests; but there are a few who WILL donate against their interests because it is the right thing to do. To make a choice to not accept large campaign donations to appease people who are, frankly, uneducated in the political system, I am not in favour of; it puts the candidates I want to win at an even larger disadvantage in the broken system. I think this is probably the most foolish thing Warren and Sanders are doing; it means worker unions can't make big donation to them, but the big corporations can donate to their opponents; the only situation that would be a better case would be if Warren and Sanders decided not to accept ANY donations at all!

Anyway, I think you're conflating two different issues. Receiving a donation from someone doesn't mean you're "In the pockets of corporations and their lobbies and thus do their bidding." since that money doesn't belong to them, it belongs to their campaign. What I think you're mixing up is the revolving door political circuit whereby corporations literally give paycheques to politicians who do their bidding. And I would be highly in favour of any politician who swears an oath to NOT take any corporate job or paycheque after their term.

True. But for a company, a PAC is an investment, and they expect a return of their investment. Mostly in the lines of: I gave you x amount of money that helped you win the election, now can you please do something for me in return? It's a more subtle way of influencing someone or their policies.

Not accepting big dollars means nor risking having to do something for those companies. And in most of the the rest of the world, the money for the campaign is given from the state explicitly to avoid companies and rich individuals to influence or outright buy elections.



haxxiy said:

Chances of nomination according to 538 based on historical data. Blue line is 100% name recognition, red line 50% name recognition. According to Morning Consult, all candidates are above 50% name recognition except for someone called "Seth Moulton". Sanders, Biden, Warren, Harris are around or above 90%. Looking pretty good for Uncle Joe - mind that primaries usually have smaller fields, as well, so his chances are higher than the graph suggests on all likehood.

OK, so Biden has a 40% chance of the nomination, leaving 60% for the other candidates.



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SpokenTruth said:
haxxiy said:

Chances of nomination according to 538 based on historical data. Blue line is 100% name recognition, red line 50% name recognition. According to Morning Consult, all candidates are above 50% name recognition except for someone called "Seth Moulton". Sanders, Biden, Warren, Harris are around or above 90%. Looking pretty good for Uncle Joe - mind that primaries usually have smaller fields, as well, so his chances are higher than the graph suggests on all likehood.

That reads weird.

For instance, if you had high name recognition with early polling at 30%, you'd have a 40% chance of nomination. But if you had low name recognition with early polling at 30%, you'd have a 90% change of nomination?  How the hell?  Are they saying at the same early polling rate, the lower name recognition candidate has a much higher chance at nomination?

If an unknown candidate already polls high it is a very bullish indicator that others that learn about the candidate may like him too.



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