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Forums - Sales Discussion - Global Hardware 8 December 2018 (Smash Week)

drinkandswim said:
DonFerrari said:

Then you have no idea what a console gen is or what the purpose of the Pro and X1X.

Pro was made just to get the 4K TVs some use (mind you that Sony manufacture these TVs as well) and PSVR platform of choice. With the clear idea of not fracturing the userbase and having all games work on both consoles. So the easiest way to have games working on both consoles is just res and in some case some small gain on fps. Plus PS4Pro is quite a small jump in power from the base console.

X1X was made both to cover the "strongest console" MS wanted after losing in all fronts for 4 years plus the great gap between consoles and PCs. But also MS doesn't want to break the userbase mid-gen.

So your comparison is really pointless, you arbritated the no gen jump to talk about "recently all extra power go to res and fps". We haven't changed gen so there were nowhere else to go, even more when CPU was basically kept the same and GPU itself only got a double or triple count on CUs. No new architeture, no other big improvements in the HW parts as well. Plus no intention of making games that couldn't be made on base consoles.

When gen change for PS5 and Xbox next, you can be sure the jump will be much more noticeable than mid gen refreshes, and the AAA games made after the crossgen will be generally not possible on the older consoles (sure you can make several compromisses and make ports, but you could even do that today to launch a PS1 or PS2 game, just wouldn't look anywhere close).

You seem to have a good amount of information, but little knowledge or understanding on the subject.

About your other post above... so you think 1/5 to 1/4 of PS4 userbase is double dipping on the consoles? Because ever since PS4Pro launched more than 20% of the sales have been of the Pro, on Xbox even more than this (probably over 1/3) even though the pricegap have been over double (like 199 to 499).

You are trying to portray to many factual things the wrong way to make an analysis that would make even Patcher blush.

Microsoft has stated there will be no New Console generations going forward. They are trying not the split the base at all, which also means very few exclusives.

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/microsoft-talks-xbox-scorpio-and-the-end-of-consol/1100-6442774/

"For us, we think the future is without console generations," Microsoft's Aaron Greenberg said.

It is you that doesn't seem to understand where the market is going, but one day you will figure it out. I perfectly understand what the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X do. The Xbox One X is complete failure and waste which hasn't sold anything. 

Microsoft have said many thing they changed later. This for example is over couple years ago. Now if you think MS will launch Xbox next costing 499 and playing same games of base X1 you are for a very strong wake to reality.

Sony have said they will still have next generation. And you can be sure their 1st party won't be hold down to a machine over 10 times weaker than their offering in PS5.

And exclusives on Xbox at the time was basically a no conversation.

drinkandswim said:

Xbox One X sold approximately 4 million in it's first year counting 2 Holiday seasons. If you think that is good then I don't know what to tell you. That is pretty abysmal to me considering how much more power it has then the Xbox One. In my opinion they would have been better off splitting the base. Especially considering Xbox One X had a price cut in its first year and a major sale on Black Friday ($399 with a free game).

Xbox total on that year was less than 10M, so X1X that is the premium offering sold quite good. It doesn't play a single game over X1. So over 40% (perhaps 50%) opting to pay 2,5x more for the same game is quite unexpected.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Around the Network
DonFerrari said:
drinkandswim said:

Microsoft has stated there will be no New Console generations going forward. They are trying not the split the base at all, which also means very few exclusives.

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/microsoft-talks-xbox-scorpio-and-the-end-of-consol/1100-6442774/

"For us, we think the future is without console generations," Microsoft's Aaron Greenberg said.

It is you that doesn't seem to understand where the market is going, but one day you will figure it out. I perfectly understand what the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X do. The Xbox One X is complete failure and waste which hasn't sold anything. 

Microsoft have said many thing they changed later. This for example is over couple years ago. Now if you think MS will launch Xbox next costing 499 and playing same games of base X1 you are for a very strong wake to reality.

Sony have said they will still have next generation. And you can be sure their 1st party won't be hold down to a machine over 10 times weaker than their offering in PS5.

And exclusives on Xbox at the time was basically a no conversation.

drinkandswim said:

Xbox One X sold approximately 4 million in it's first year counting 2 Holiday seasons. If you think that is good then I don't know what to tell you. That is pretty abysmal to me considering how much more power it has then the Xbox One. In my opinion they would have been better off splitting the base. Especially considering Xbox One X had a price cut in its first year and a major sale on Black Friday ($399 with a free game).

Xbox total on that year was less than 10M, so X1X that is the premium offering sold quite good. It doesn't play a single game over X1. So over 40% (perhaps 50%) opting to pay 2,5x more for the same game is quite unexpected.

I definitely don't expect the next Generation to only play the same games as the current gen. If it did I don't think it would find much success. I mean I don't think the regular Xbox One numbers are that great, but they aren't bad considering they have near zero Japanese Market. I don't expect Switch to offer Next Gen gaming, as I said I only expect them to with the Switch Pro (assuming there will be one) be able to play current Gen games at 1080P (docked). I don't think Switch needs to play  PS5/X4 games to be successful because the trade off is portability, but if it can play current gen games (Xbox One/PS4 quality) the trade off will be enough for a second system. I assume most people would want a next gen console and a handheld they can play some games on the go. So that is where my assumption that someone will be the loser in the next Gen and I don't think it will be Sony due to their quality First Party games. A large quantity of gamers will purchase two platforms. PS5/X4 will offer similar experiences, while Switch offers handheld gaming.



drinkandswim said:
DonFerrari said:

Microsoft have said many thing they changed later. This for example is over couple years ago. Now if you think MS will launch Xbox next costing 499 and playing same games of base X1 you are for a very strong wake to reality.

Sony have said they will still have next generation. And you can be sure their 1st party won't be hold down to a machine over 10 times weaker than their offering in PS5.

And exclusives on Xbox at the time was basically a no conversation.

Xbox total on that year was less than 10M, so X1X that is the premium offering sold quite good. It doesn't play a single game over X1. So over 40% (perhaps 50%) opting to pay 2,5x more for the same game is quite unexpected.

I definitely don't expect the next Generation to only play the same games as the current gen. If it did I don't think it would find much success. I mean I don't think the regular Xbox One numbers are that great, but they aren't bad considering they have near zero Japanese Market. I don't expect Switch to offer Next Gen gaming, as I said I only expect them to with the Switch Pro (assuming there will be one) be able to play current Gen games at 1080P (docked). I don't think Switch needs to play  PS5/X4 games to be successful because the trade off is portability, but if it can play current gen games (Xbox One/PS4 quality) the trade off will be enough for a second system. I assume most people would want a next gen console and a handheld they can play some games on the go. So that is where my assumption that someone will be the loser in the next Gen and I don't think it will be Sony due to their quality First Party games. A large quantity of gamers will purchase two platforms. PS5/X4 will offer similar experiences, while Switch offers handheld gaming.

So do you expect when PS5/X4 arises that devs and pubs will port other PS4/X1 games to Switch2? Not sure it makes much sense. Sure some games may see that, they may even see a remaster to PS5/X4 with upgraded visuals and together a Switch 2 version with the base quality. But don't expect a great number of games.

I mostly expect next gen to be similar to this. PS5 100+M, X4 40+M (about 33-50% of PS4) and Switch 2 or whatever solution if hybrid to be 60+M.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
drinkandswim said:

I definitely don't expect the next Generation to only play the same games as the current gen. If it did I don't think it would find much success. I mean I don't think the regular Xbox One numbers are that great, but they aren't bad considering they have near zero Japanese Market. I don't expect Switch to offer Next Gen gaming, as I said I only expect them to with the Switch Pro (assuming there will be one) be able to play current Gen games at 1080P (docked). I don't think Switch needs to play  PS5/X4 games to be successful because the trade off is portability, but if it can play current gen games (Xbox One/PS4 quality) the trade off will be enough for a second system. I assume most people would want a next gen console and a handheld they can play some games on the go. So that is where my assumption that someone will be the loser in the next Gen and I don't think it will be Sony due to their quality First Party games. A large quantity of gamers will purchase two platforms. PS5/X4 will offer similar experiences, while Switch offers handheld gaming.

So do you expect when PS5/X4 arises that devs and pubs will port other PS4/X1 games to Switch2? Not sure it makes much sense. Sure some games may see that, they may even see a remaster to PS5/X4 with upgraded visuals and together a Switch 2 version with the base quality. But don't expect a great number of games.

I mostly expect next gen to be similar to this. PS5 100+M, X4 40+M (about 33-50% of PS4) and Switch 2 or whatever solution if hybrid to be 60+M.

I think if the demand is there to play some Xbox One/PS4 games on the go (which I think there is) they will. Since porting cost is way less than developing a brand new title. I don't think it will be every game. I also think Switch will get some games built from the ground up since I expect the base will be large enough for Developers to see value. I can definitely see for instance Blizzard/Activision making a ground up Call of Duty for Switch especially since Fortnite is a huge success on Switch so there is a Shooter base there already. For sure you will see Switch to be the ultimate Indy system as many games are even outselling the PC Versions. The key for Nintendo is the Japanese Market. They can easily reach 20 million there alone. The other key is that Switch is a system that can sell multi within a single household. Whereas I agree with the general consensus that Switch isn't a direct competitor to X4/PS5, it still competes for time since you are most likely not playing Switch and a Home Console at the same time. Nintendo's weakest market right now is Europe. In order to expand in Europe they need some AAA third party titles as Nintendo titles alone don't seem to be strongly penetrating that market. I think someone mentioned that they cant see RDR2 being ported to Switch, and I agree I don't see it being ported to the current Switch. I do think with the Switch Pro if it does use the Tegra X2 (which is my guess) that it will be able to play RDR2 maybe at 720P 30FPS (docked). Now whether that is something acceptable for Rockstar and whether the porting cost of RDR2 is worth it to them that is up to them as a developer. 



drinkandswim said:
DonFerrari said:

So do you expect when PS5/X4 arises that devs and pubs will port other PS4/X1 games to Switch2? Not sure it makes much sense. Sure some games may see that, they may even see a remaster to PS5/X4 with upgraded visuals and together a Switch 2 version with the base quality. But don't expect a great number of games.

I mostly expect next gen to be similar to this. PS5 100+M, X4 40+M (about 33-50% of PS4) and Switch 2 or whatever solution if hybrid to be 60+M.

I think if the demand is there to play some Xbox One/PS4 games on the go (which I think there is) they will. Since porting cost is way less than developing a brand new title. I don't think it will be every game. I also think Switch will get some games built from the ground up since I expect the base will be large enough for Developers to see value. I can definitely see for instance Blizzard/Activision making a ground up Call of Duty for Switch especially since Fortnite is a huge success on Switch so there is a Shooter base there already. For sure you will see Switch to be the ultimate Indy system as many games are even outselling the PC Versions. The key for Nintendo is the Japanese Market. They can easily reach 20 million there alone. The other key is that Switch is a system that can sell multi within a single household. Whereas I agree with the general consensus that Switch isn't a direct competitor to X4/PS5, it still competes for time since you are most likely not playing Switch and a Home Console at the same time. Nintendo's weakest market right now is Europe. In order to expand in Europe they need some AAA third party titles as Nintendo titles alone don't seem to be strongly penetrating that market. I think someone mentioned that they cant see RDR2 being ported to Switch, and I agree I don't see it being ported to the current Switch. I do think with the Switch Pro if it does use the Tegra X2 (which is my guess) that it will be able to play RDR2 maybe at 720P 30FPS (docked). Now whether that is something acceptable for Rockstar and whether the porting cost of RDR2 is worth it to them that is up to them as a developer. 

Doesn't make an ounce of logic to instead of making a game that already is on the 10+M sell on PS/Xbox design a new IP or change the base to Switch to try on a base that those type of games make 1M sales.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Around the Network
DonFerrari said:
drinkandswim said:

I think if the demand is there to play some Xbox One/PS4 games on the go (which I think there is) they will. Since porting cost is way less than developing a brand new title. I don't think it will be every game. I also think Switch will get some games built from the ground up since I expect the base will be large enough for Developers to see value. I can definitely see for instance Blizzard/Activision making a ground up Call of Duty for Switch especially since Fortnite is a huge success on Switch so there is a Shooter base there already. For sure you will see Switch to be the ultimate Indy system as many games are even outselling the PC Versions. The key for Nintendo is the Japanese Market. They can easily reach 20 million there alone. The other key is that Switch is a system that can sell multi within a single household. Whereas I agree with the general consensus that Switch isn't a direct competitor to X4/PS5, it still competes for time since you are most likely not playing Switch and a Home Console at the same time. Nintendo's weakest market right now is Europe. In order to expand in Europe they need some AAA third party titles as Nintendo titles alone don't seem to be strongly penetrating that market. I think someone mentioned that they cant see RDR2 being ported to Switch, and I agree I don't see it being ported to the current Switch. I do think with the Switch Pro if it does use the Tegra X2 (which is my guess) that it will be able to play RDR2 maybe at 720P 30FPS (docked). Now whether that is something acceptable for Rockstar and whether the porting cost of RDR2 is worth it to them that is up to them as a developer. 

Doesn't make an ounce of logic to instead of making a game that already is on the 10+M sell on PS/Xbox design a new IP or change the base to Switch to try on a base that those type of games make 1M sales.

Well I think it does. Because for instance a game like RDR2 costs approx. $400 million to make according to estimates I have seen. The cost to port is a lot less. Like for instance porting Diablo 3 tooks 6 men 9 months to port to the Switch from what I read. So if you already invested that much money into the game and the cost to port is about $1 million dollars why wouldn't you? If you sell 1 million copies you still profited $39 million dollars (assuming they sell for $60 and make $40 per game (after distribution costs/discounts).

Also they don't typically use their main staff for ports. They usually use a third party. 



drinkandswim said:

Xbox One X sold approximately 4 million in it's first year counting 2 Holiday seasons. If you think that is good then I don't know what to tell you. That is pretty abysmal to me considering how much more power it has than the Xbox One. In my opinion they would have been better off splitting the base. Especially considering Xbox One X had a price cut in its first year and a major sale on Black Friday ($399 with a free game).

Agreed. Xbox sales weren't actually good and considering how much more powerful the X is over the S it makes sense it took such a high percentage.



DonFerrari said:

 

Bofferbrauer2 said: 

@bolded: That doesn't make much sense, and especially no business sense. Why would you port games for replaced hardware but not go a bit lower to garner clients of a console that's still selling, and most probably selling pretty well even by then? As long as games will be ported to the XBO, you can be damn sure they'll take the extra step to port to Switch too, as there's just more to gain there by then.

Because even now when X1 is relevant HW the Switch port is hard to do and cut a lot of corners. So when X1 is the one that needs a lot of cuts made to get made the Switch will need much more cuts and it may become ludicrous. There were Fifas being ported to PS2 while not being ported for Wii just to remind you.

They will make ports to consoles where they will profit enough.

Which ones?



drinkandswim said:
DonFerrari said:

Doesn't make an ounce of logic to instead of making a game that already is on the 10+M sell on PS/Xbox design a new IP or change the base to Switch to try on a base that those type of games make 1M sales.

Well I think it does. Because for instance a game like RDR2 costs approx. $400 million to make according to estimates I have seen. The cost to port is a lot less. Like for instance porting Diablo 3 tooks 6 men 9 months to port to the Switch from what I read. So if you already invested that much money into the game and the cost to port is about $1 million dollars why wouldn't you? If you sell 1 million copies you still profited $39 million dollars (assuming they sell for $60 and make $40 per game (after distribution costs/discounts).

Also they don't typically use their main staff for ports. They usually use a third party. 

You were talking about making IP or making their base :

" I also think Switch will get some games built from the ground up since I expect the base will be large enough for Developers to see value. I can definitely see for instance Blizzard/Activision making a ground up Call of Duty for Switch especially since Fortnite is a huge success on Switch so there is a Shooter base there already. "

So devs are already mostly fully utilizing their teams. So instead of making Call of Duty 2021 focused on PS5/X4 they would make Call of Duty Switch?

Whatever game they develop, or new teams they create will hardly be made to focus on the platform that may sell 1M instead of 10M.

RDR2 won't run on Switch unless they make several cuts. And by the time PS5 launch hardly will R* look at porting RDR2 to Switch, they will more likely making GTA6 cross gen entry to double dips or even RDR2 remaster.

Mandalore76 said:
DonFerrari said:

 

Which ones?

Fifa 14 launched on PS2, PES 2014 as well launched on PS2.

I though Fifa 14 didn't launch on Wii, but PES 2014 didn't launch on it.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

I think right now Switch is right under the requirements to run most Xbox One games. The RAM is too low, the bandwidth too small, and the overall power is too low. That is what makes Switch Pro necessary. I really think they need to close those gaps and then you can see a lot of major ports of Sports Games, some FPS, and RE games. Right now the best you can ask for is games that are also being ported to Xbox 360 (GTA V which initially launched on 360, etc.).

Edit: Also the Cartridge Memory maximum is currently too low and cost for higher capacity cartridges too high. Nintendo was supposed to issue larger capacity cartridges in 2018 and they were delayed. Another hold back point. But one game if you want to look is Warframe which runs at 1080P 30FPS on Xbox One runs at 720P 30FPS with dynamic resolution on the Switch. That is the best you can expect for current ports. If they run at 1080P on Xbox One they can run on Switch at 720P with a dynamic resolution. And that list is actually very small if you look at it. Xbox One doesn't run many games at 1080P.

Last edited by drinkandswim - on 07 January 2019