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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Why do people get upset by OPTIONAL difficult assists?

As long as it's optional, I don't really see a reason to care. More difficulty options means the game gets to be played by more people, is more likely to have sequels (provided its well-made in the first place), and most important, more fanart! I rarely use Easy mode settings myself, but options are just that...options.

Of course, it's true some games are built around the difficulty...again I don't really care if people want to play those games that way...I just hope they leave with the knowledge that their experience isn't necessarily indicative of how the game was designed to be played.



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curl-6 said:
Mnementh said:

I actually don't believe there was much of an outcry. I for one completely missed it. Yes, gaming media probably made a thing out of it, for easy clicks, but were there in real many people upset about it?

Thankfully the majority were cool with it, but there was still quite a lot of complaints in various forums and comments sections. It helped that the game itself wasn't a major release and that thanks to 7 years of Super Guide a lot of the people who were so against it had gotten it out of their system and come to grudgingly accept this sort of thing.

Still there was a lot of stuff like:

"I don't know why games should be made that autoplay themselves. Whats the point? Are people really that incapable of any sort of difficulty? So what if a player struggles. It's the only way they'll get good."

 

"New gamers are getting catered way too much"

 

Giving every scrub a chance to blast through the game is bad game designing"

 

"Remember when games (especially Nintendo games) were challenging and didn't hold your hand because they assumed you were either a kid or a complete n00b? Remember when even the simplest of games actually required skill to beat or get good at?

 

Because things like this kinda make me miss those days. Much like the EXP Share and White Tanooki Suit before it, this "Invincible Arwing" looks like another attempt by Nintendo at casualizing their games to appeal to kids and casuals by removing any sort of skill and holding their hands all the way through. Seriously, with features like these, what's the point of even playing the game in the first place?"

 

"Urgh, at least turn the Arwing into a toy and have it shoot water instead of lasers, having the bosses call you out on it and just fly away in disgust when encountered with this mode on would also be a nice touch.

You know make it blatantly clear that the player sucks and is having his hand held through it."

 

"I don't know why games should be made that autoplay themselves. Whats the point? Are people really that incapable of any sort of difficulty? So what if a player struggles. It's the only way they'll get good."

 

"New gamers are getting catered way too much"

 

Giving every scrub a chance to blast through the game is bad game designing"

Sooo, some people complain. Some people always complain. Is it major? I don't think so.

There is one example that is especially striking. Zelda Breath of the Wild is probably the most difficult Zelda in years. I die more often in BOTW than Souls. Did people demand an easy mode? No, on the contrary they applauded the introduction of Master Mode, a option with even HIGHER difficulty. So why not as with Souls games people did ask again and again for an easy mode? Because in difference to Souls game everyone knew how to play Zelda, it was a gameplay they expected.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023

10 years greatest game event!

bets: [peak year] [+], [1], [2], [3], [4]

Mnementh said:
curl-6 said:

Thankfully the majority were cool with it, but there was still quite a lot of complaints in various forums and comments sections. It helped that the game itself wasn't a major release and that thanks to 7 years of Super Guide a lot of the people who were so against it had gotten it out of their system and come to grudgingly accept this sort of thing.

Still there was a lot of stuff like:

"I don't know why games should be made that autoplay themselves. Whats the point? Are people really that incapable of any sort of difficulty? So what if a player struggles. It's the only way they'll get good."

 

"New gamers are getting catered way too much"

 

Giving every scrub a chance to blast through the game is bad game designing"

 

"Remember when games (especially Nintendo games) were challenging and didn't hold your hand because they assumed you were either a kid or a complete n00b? Remember when even the simplest of games actually required skill to beat or get good at?

 

Because things like this kinda make me miss those days. Much like the EXP Share and White Tanooki Suit before it, this "Invincible Arwing" looks like another attempt by Nintendo at casualizing their games to appeal to kids and casuals by removing any sort of skill and holding their hands all the way through. Seriously, with features like these, what's the point of even playing the game in the first place?"

 

"Urgh, at least turn the Arwing into a toy and have it shoot water instead of lasers, having the bosses call you out on it and just fly away in disgust when encountered with this mode on would also be a nice touch.

You know make it blatantly clear that the player sucks and is having his hand held through it."

 

"I don't know why games should be made that autoplay themselves. Whats the point? Are people really that incapable of any sort of difficulty? So what if a player struggles. It's the only way they'll get good."

 

"New gamers are getting catered way too much"

 

Giving every scrub a chance to blast through the game is bad game designing"

Sooo, some people complain. Some people always complain. Is it major? I don't think so.

There is one example that is especially striking. Zelda Breath of the Wild is probably the most difficult Zelda in years. I die more often in BOTW than Souls. Did people demand an easy mode? No, on the contrary they applauded the introduction of Master Mode, a option with even HIGHER difficulty. So why not as with Souls games people did ask again and again for an easy mode? Because in difference to Souls game everyone knew how to play Zelda, it was a gameplay they expected.

Well, if Nintendo announced tomorrow there would be a new easy mode added to BOTW, I wouldn't have a problem with that. I wouldn't use it myself, but if it helps someone else get into it, I don't see the harm.



curl-6 said:
Mnementh said:

Sooo, some people complain. Some people always complain. Is it major? I don't think so.

There is one example that is especially striking. Zelda Breath of the Wild is probably the most difficult Zelda in years. I die more often in BOTW than Souls. Did people demand an easy mode? No, on the contrary they applauded the introduction of Master Mode, a option with even HIGHER difficulty. So why not as with Souls games people did ask again and again for an easy mode? Because in difference to Souls game everyone knew how to play Zelda, it was a gameplay they expected.

Well, if Nintendo announced tomorrow there would be a new easy mode added to BOTW, I wouldn't have a problem with that. I wouldn't use it myself, but if it helps someone else get into it, I don't see the harm.

Yeah, but that is not my point. Why nobody think about masking an easy mode for Zelda in the first place, while it is common for Souls?

Oh, I think of another example. With emulation - you know like Virtual Console and Sega Genesis Collection - games get added save states, which certainly make things easier. But nobody complains about it (yeah, as with Star Fox Zero, probably a few people complain). your whole thread seems to generalize the Souls situation, which isn't at all something usual. And then the thread fails to recognize whats so different about Souls. That it isn't about difficulty at all, but about gameplay.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023

10 years greatest game event!

bets: [peak year] [+], [1], [2], [3], [4]

AngryLittleAlchemist said:
SvennoJ said:

Games are there for your enjoyment. They are not a skill test. There is no prize at the end. You do not graduate game school. Let people enjoy games the way they want. I finished God of War on easy, which was damn hard for me against the final Valkyrie boss. Game of the year for me. Freely changing difficulty on the fly reduced any frustration and kept the game fun from beginning to end.

I can't help but feel this is very disingenuous, because it isn't in line with the enjoyment of entertainment as a whole. Entertainment by it's very nature is getting something out of something that holds no real objective value. Just because you don't graduate from school for finishing Dark Souls doesn't mean that feeling of accomplishment can't exist. Just because an option doesn't affect certain people doesn't mean it isn't an important part of the game's point. In fact it's not even a good argument when used by your own standards. If games have no real importance, then why even go to the lengths of buying a game you know you probably won't enjoy? And if they aren't important than what's the point of arguing about whether there should be a difficulty mode on an obscure gaming forum? Of course you didn't say that games aren't important - but you did make a comparison to objective benchmarks that somehow trivialize those of video games. Even though that would fly in the face of the point of entertainment as a whole.

Souls games are mostly about learning. And one of those methods of teaching in a Souls game is the difficulty. If you don't want to learn the game, then why play it? Because that's the thing about most easy modes. They are mostly there so that players don't have to learn anything about the game. People act like difficulty isn't a mechanic of a game, but of course it is. It has as much importance as any other - and that is proved by both people who dislike the difficulty in a game or by those who like it. 

I've seen your posts around this forum and honestly I don't think the Souls games are for your demographic. Most people who get into them have a lot of free time on their hands. Most people who get into them like a challenge. That doesn't mean they should change, it just means it isn't for you. And that's fine. 

Anyways, this is my last post in this thread. I don't want to keep repeating what I've repeated a million times before. Other people are free to disagree or talk. It is obnoxious for me to take up most of the thread. Plus I just remembered that I think one of my first moderations had to do with difficulty in games. So yeah ... not going to get trapped into that again  

As for your second point (I'm racing in between, got a few minutes between sport races)

People have different abilities, different reaction times, which also slow down with age. A fixed difficulty level ignores all that. Difficulty can be changed in many ways. Timing windows can be more generous instead of more health. Check points can be more generous. Information and tips can be more forth coming instead of reaching for a wiki.

you say Souls games are mostly about learning. Yet every education system has levels. The starting point should be configurable. I did complete Dark Souls aboput 2.5 times. I quit on NG++ when getting to Ornstein and Smough again, couldn't bear doing that again. I would have continued on if I could skip that fight. Dark souls 2 was a lot easier thanks to knowing the systems already plus it allowed you to repeat areas to get ahead and I finished that game very overpowered. I was dying tons at the start though, hence I resorted to leveling up magic to have a more enjoyable time for the rest of the game. In essence, the early difficulty spike lessened the later part of the game. Balance is key and being able to change difficulty on the fly is the best imo. I changed it up and down a lot during GoW.



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Mnementh said:
curl-6 said:

Well, if Nintendo announced tomorrow there would be a new easy mode added to BOTW, I wouldn't have a problem with that. I wouldn't use it myself, but if it helps someone else get into it, I don't see the harm.

Yeah, but that is not my point. Why nobody think about masking an easy mode for Zelda in the first place, while it is common for Souls?

Oh, I think of another example. With emulation - you know like Virtual Console and Sega Genesis Collection - games get added save states, which certainly make things easier. But nobody complains about it (yeah, as with Star Fox Zero, probably a few people complain). your whole thread seems to generalize the Souls situation, which isn't at all something usual. And then the thread fails to recognize whats so different about Souls. That it isn't about difficulty at all, but about gameplay.

You're making it all about Souls which it really isn't. It's about the general negative responses that seem to happen whenever there's even the suggestion that options be made available to help less able players enjoy a game.



I'm with Curl on this. There just isn't a good reason for any gamer to dislike optional assists in games (when doing so does not affect other players' ability to play the game without these assists).



Mnementh said:
JWeinCom said:

Uhhhh... ok... but that really didn't answer my question in the least.

I answered that I have no problem with an easy mode in Dark Souls, it just doesn't solve your problem.

Say, you play Mario, but you never jump. You constantly fall into the first pit and die. So you demand an easy mode. Nintendo hears you and let's say give Mario invulnerability against enemies or so. You play the patched game with high hopes, but you still don't jump and so you fall into the first pit and die.

People these days have reduced their gaming options of few gameplay variants. I have played games for more than 25 years and seen a lot of gameplay ideas. These days on the typical consoles we have mostly shooters, action games, some action RPGs and Sports. Puzzlers or turn-based RPGs are already awful niche. Now comes the Switch and has a lot of games which are metroidvanias, platformers or strategy. And people accustomed to the other consoles say: Switch has no games. Because they don't even recognize the different gameplays. Same with Dark Souls. People expect it to play like say God of War, Darksiders or Zelda. And going in with that expectation they aren't seeing that the gameplay is actually different. So it is like playing Mario without jumping: they will fail. But instead of recognizing the different gameplay, they think the game is hard and demand an easy mode. Only it will solve nothing. They still won't jump. because they aren't recognizing a different gameplay if they see it. And yeah, all the git gud stuff - it means play the game like it is intended instead of playing a different game, while having the Dark Souls disk inserted.

Uhhhhhhh... I've never played Dark Souls... and don't really intend to... and I have never mentioned Dark Souls.  So, again, I have no idea how this answers my question in any way.

But I guess I'll address it anyway.  Sometimes games have levels that for whatever reason are too hard.  I absolutely hated the sun level in Mario Bros 3.  So, I used a P Wing on it every time.  Then I went on to enjoy the rest of the game.  I knew how to jump, I wasn't trying to play Mario like Mega Man or something, I just didn't like and had difficulty with that part of the game.

The P Wing let you skip levels.  Nowadays there are other ways to skip levels implemented in games.  And people for some reason have a problem with it.  You don't have to use a P-Wing or Funky Kong or whatever.  It's an option that makes the game better for some people, like my 6 year old self.  And I don't understand how such features would in any way make the game less enjoyable for anyone else.  



AngryLittleAlchemist said:
The Souls games are a terrible example of this. The quality of those games is largely reliant on the ability to have fun by getting over difficulty curves. If someone played a Souls game on easy not only would they miss the point of the game largely, but they would probably enjoy it less too. Not every game is for everyone - and one thing that sticks out about the example regarding the Souls games is that it's never a wish of the developers or the fanbase for there to be an easy mode, it's always the wish of people the game was never catering to to begin with. At least with the Nintendo games you gave as an example it is an actual want of the developers to provide player assist.

The other games you listed had no real outrage as to their player assist so I don't really know what you mean? I do know that people would mention how they didn't like using the mode, but then they just wouldn't use it. The most recent example of outrage might be Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, but that was because that game can be quite competitive and allowing an AI to help the player steer can potentially be frustrating for other players. Though, I've never seen anyone actually complain about it's use, just the theory around the idea, and so again on that end there wasn't a big outrage about it.

There are ways around this though. I dont think there is any justification for agame not having difficulty settings And this is coming from someone that selects the hard difficulty on every game I play.

Just award a trophy for finishing the game n the hard difficulty. Maybe even throw in a special ending there too. This way those wanting to experience a game as intended can and those wanting an easier playthrough can also play too. Everyone wins.

Take GOW for instance. One of the hardest games to play on Give me God of war (hardest) difficulty and they also made it so that its the one difficulty you can't change mid game. Didn't stop millions from loving the game. 



Not sure why really, when it won't affect them at all. I think I used to feel this way, and I suppose my reasoning for hating it was it takes away the satisfaction of clearing challenges by earning it, rather than breezing through it with easier modes or a sort of helpful item.

I came to accept that some people just want to experience the story of whatever game they're playing, and if they want to skip through parts they struggle, well that's fine. As long as they get to enjoy the game.



 

              

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