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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Why is the Switch still not getting big games from 3rd parties? October edition

WhatATimeToBeAlive on 22 October 2018
Mnementh said:
potato_hamster said:

So in this very thread you have two groups of Nintendo fans:

One calling them idiots or having a bias against NIntendo for not bringing their top, high budget titles on Nintendo platforms and not giving their audience a chance to support these games with substantial sales, and another calling them idiots who are completely out of touch with Nintendo's audience and are foolish to think the games they aren't porting to Nintendo platforms wouldn't sell well on Nintendo platforms, and instead should observe the "creative, experimental, quirky" games that do sell better on Nintendo platforms, that you know, these third party publishers have historically made instead.

Like, you do realize games like Boom Blox are made by EA, right?

P.S. I'm sure EA felt super that they never bothered porting Assassin's creed to the Wii, but 50+ games like "Get Fit with Mel B",  "My horse and Me: Riding for Gold" combined to outsell what they projected Assassin's Creed would have.

I fall in the second group. Just look at Ubisoft. They did it. They try to cater to the audience. It doesn't always work out, but it does sometimes. Just Dance was created by Ubisoft for the Wii audience. And it worked out big time, it was a really big franchise. Only that Nintendo themself was playing at the next garden and gave up on motion gaming eroded the userbase for Just Dance over time.

Switch has a much more classical userbase, but not one that is after the last graphical things (obviously). So games that sell over technical feats - mostly action games and FPS - do sell badly on Switch. That's why it is mind-boggling that Bethesda tries themself at shooters on Switch so much. Doom and Wolfenstein do sell badly on Switch, but Bethesda is unphased. I think a manger is fan of Switch. Or Bethesda wants to be the one company that sells games to the Switch audience. That might work out.

But Switch has a userbase for Platformers, Metroidvanias, Brawlers, RPGs and adventures. Therefore pretty much everything in that categories is ported to Switch and sells great. Only this forum mostly cares about shooters and action-games. Therefore it seems Switch has bad 3rd-party support, while it actually gets pretty decent support, only in different genres.

Yeah, besides that AssCreed is Ubi not EA. Just wanted to say.

But RPGs also (and games in general that focus on story and characters, so not just games "that sell over technical feats") sell better on PlayStation/Xbox. And action games contains many sub-genres, like action-adventure games (where majority of big 3rd party games belong). And just like Zelda BotW is an action-adventure game, so are games like Assassin's Creed, Tomb Raider, Red Dead Redemption,...

So when you look at big 3rd-party games support on Switch, it is lacking in action-adventure, RPG, shooter and driving genres (I would say shooters are actually on top with DOOM and Wolfenstein, since they are not last-gen ports).



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Mnementh on 22 October 2018
WhatATimeToBeAlive said:
Mnementh said:

I fall in the second group. Just look at Ubisoft. They did it. They try to cater to the audience. It doesn't always work out, but it does sometimes. Just Dance was created by Ubisoft for the Wii audience. And it worked out big time, it was a really big franchise. Only that Nintendo themself was playing at the next garden and gave up on motion gaming eroded the userbase for Just Dance over time.

Switch has a much more classical userbase, but not one that is after the last graphical things (obviously). So games that sell over technical feats - mostly action games and FPS - do sell badly on Switch. That's why it is mind-boggling that Bethesda tries themself at shooters on Switch so much. Doom and Wolfenstein do sell badly on Switch, but Bethesda is unphased. I think a manger is fan of Switch. Or Bethesda wants to be the one company that sells games to the Switch audience. That might work out.

But Switch has a userbase for Platformers, Metroidvanias, Brawlers, RPGs and adventures. Therefore pretty much everything in that categories is ported to Switch and sells great. Only this forum mostly cares about shooters and action-games. Therefore it seems Switch has bad 3rd-party support, while it actually gets pretty decent support, only in different genres.

Yeah, besides that AssCreed is Ubi not EA. Just wanted to say.

But RPGs also (and games in general that focus on story and characters, so not just games "that sell over technical feats") sell better on PlayStation/Xbox. And action games contains many sub-genres, like action-adventure games (where majority of big 3rd party games belong). And just like Zelda BotW is an action-adventure game, so are games like Assassin's Creed, Tomb Raider, Red Dead Redemption,...

So when you look at big 3rd-party games support on Switch, it is lacking in action-adventure, RPG, shooter and driving genres (I would say shooters are actually on top with DOOM and Wolfenstein, since they are not last-gen ports).

You kinda make a strange argument that mixes RPGs with action games. RPGs sell well on Switch:

BattleChasers Nightwar: 55K on PS4, 41K on Switch, 30K on XB1

Ys VIII: 170K on PS4, 60K on Switch (it had 55K on PS4 at the same time after launch) and no release on XB1

Shining Resonance Refrain: 56K on PS4, 60K on Switch, 7K on XB1 (released first on PS4)

I am Setsuna: 74K on PS4, 49K on Switch, no Xbox release

Lost Sphear: 24K on PS4, 42K on Switch, no Xbox release

Switch releases of RPGs hold well against the PS4 version even as late ports and clearly outdo XBox version. Add to that exceptional sales of Switch-exclusive RPGs Octopath Traveler and Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and you can clearly see that Switch has a RPG-affine userbase. It matters for RPGs without a doubt more than the XBox One and does look not bad compared to PS4. Hence as a result the flood of RPG releases and announcements for Switch.

I am also not so sure about the driving genre. As I see it there are the simulation subgenre (Gran Turismo, Forza, etc.) which focuses on realistic physics and damage models. Besides that you have arcade racing, like Mario Kart, Sonic Racing, Burnout etc. The second one does actually pretty well on Switch with lots of releases, the first one is focusing more on PS4 and Xbox One.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023

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potato_hamster on 22 October 2018
Miyamotoo said:
potato_hamster said:

I mean... if you exclude all the multi-platform games that don't sell 2-1, I can see your point.

Not every? Most games don't have stronger sales with a higher install base. You can cherry pick different examples of popular franchises that keep selling, but these are the exception, not the rule.

I don't know what I'm talking about? Are those sales rates for those games as good as they were when the titles were first released? Ohh they weren't? Sales are actually decreasing over time despite increased platform sales? That's interesting. It seems curious to me that Mario Odyssey sold 9 million games to an install base of 18 million consoles, yet have only sold another 2 million games along with another 8 million consoles sold? Shouldn't Mario Odyssey have sold another 4-5 million in 2018, instead of the 2 or so they sold?

How much less would Twillight princess have sold if Wii only sold 50 million units instead of 105 million?

As for attach rate, it's a pretty meaningless statistic. "Our game we released only sold 150,000 copies on Switch, and 1 million copies on PS4. Sure we'll never recoup the money we spent porting our game over to Switch, and if we didn't release on PS4 we would have been bankrupt, but look at how much better the attach rate was on Switch!"

Attach rates don't make platforms more lucrative to invest in. Attach rates don't put money in developers pockets. Attach rates don't get sequels greenlit.  Attach rates don't mean anything for businesses. The only people that care about it are video game fans that like to argue about video games on the internet.

Not all, but huge majority, like 90%.

Fact is that every game continue to sell how install base is growing, some better same worse, but they all continue to sell. I don't cherry picking anything, we talked about Sony vs Nintendo games sales, and offcourse we comparing best selling games.

Hardly somes will sell year or two later same like it did compared when its released, but that isnt my point, but games that I mentione will continue to sell very good. For your information in first two quarters of this year, Odyssey sold around 2m (where Switch sold 3.8m), in other two quarters of year it will easily sell at least 2-3m more (probably 3m+ more), so only in this year it will sell 4-5m more at least, while MK8D sold 3m in same time period (first two quarters of this year), Zelda BotW 2.6m and Splatoon 2 sold 1.85m in same time period.

We cant know that, but fact is it would sell less in any case, same like we know that Zelda BotW will have higher selling numbers when Switch install base will be around 40m instead of current 20m (for instance Zelda BotW sold 2.8m first month and now is at 9.3m, at end of this year will probably be somewhere around 12m).

Attach rate has much more sense when you comparing platforms with totally different install basis instead of sales numbers, it simple show of how much some game is selling compared to its install base.

No one arguing that, remember, we talked Sony vs Nintendo games sales.

90%? Soucce?

Every game continues to sell so long as there's people that think it's worth buying at the price it has. That still doesn't indicate that having an install base of 4 times higher than another console automatically means that sales should be significantly higher on PS4. I'm not talking about best selling games. Those are the very small minority of games on a platform. I'm talking about the others 95+% of games on a platform that do the vast majority of their sales within the first six months of release and do not continue to grow with increased install base. You're cherry picking the exceptions and pretending it represents the whole.

And I don't care about these handful of games that are still selling decently a year after release. Again these are exceptions. Most games go out of print within the first two years of release, so they  can't possibly steadily increase sales with install base.

And again, a game like Breath of the Wild (whose sales are still slowing but at a slower rate than most titles) is the exception to the rule. You keep bringing up these handful of exceptions. Take a game like "This is the Police". I doubt they're still making copies of that game. The sales of that game at 20 million will be pretty much the same as it will be when Switch sales reach 40 million. Because they stopped making copies. Because people stopped buying it. Because most games sales don't have "legs".

Why can't we know what Twilight Princess sales would be if Wii sales were only 50 million instead of 105 million. Ohh right, it's because there's no direct relationship between the two. That's exactly my point. The only difference between the two is that in one case Twillight Princess has the potential to sell 50 million copies and in the second case it has the potential to sell 105 million copies. Now can you please stop claiming otherwise?

How a game sells compared to its install base doesn't matter. It's meaningless. It demonstrates nothing other then how many games the average console owner buys,and that information doesn't actually help sell more copies of games in any way.



potato_hamster on 22 October 2018
Mnementh said:
potato_hamster said:

So in this very thread you have two groups of Nintendo fans:

One calling them idiots or having a bias against NIntendo for not bringing their top, high budget titles on Nintendo platforms and not giving their audience a chance to support these games with substantial sales, and another calling them idiots who are completely out of touch with Nintendo's audience and are foolish to think the games they aren't porting to Nintendo platforms wouldn't sell well on Nintendo platforms, and instead should observe the "creative, experimental, quirky" games that do sell better on Nintendo platforms, that you know, these third party publishers have historically made instead.

Like, you do realize games like Boom Blox are made by EA, right?

P.S. I'm sure EA felt super that they never bothered porting Assassin's creed to the Wii, but 50+ games like "Get Fit with Mel B",  "My horse and Me: Riding for Gold" combined to outsell what they projected Assassin's Creed would have.

I fall in the second group. Just look at Ubisoft. They did it. They try to cater to the audience. It doesn't always work out, but it does sometimes. Just Dance was created by Ubisoft for the Wii audience. And it worked out big time, it was a really big franchise. Only that Nintendo themself was playing at the next garden and gave up on motion gaming eroded the userbase for Just Dance over time.

Switch has a much more classical userbase, but not one that is after the last graphical things (obviously). So games that sell over technical feats - mostly action games and FPS - do sell badly on Switch. That's why it is mind-boggling that Bethesda tries themself at shooters on Switch so much. Doom and Wolfenstein do sell badly on Switch, but Bethesda is unphased. I think a manger is fan of Switch. Or Bethesda wants to be the one company that sells games to the Switch audience. That might work out.

But Switch has a userbase for Platformers, Metroidvanias, Brawlers, RPGs and adventures. Therefore pretty much everything in that categories is ported to Switch and sells great. Only this forum mostly cares about shooters and action-games. Therefore it seems Switch has bad 3rd-party support, while it actually gets pretty decent support, only in different genres.

Yeah, besides that AssCreed is Ubi not EA. Just wanted to say.

Ubisoft arem't the only ones that tried to cater to the audience. EA actually put a lot of effort into it especially in the Wii days. Not only did they come out with new IPs like Boom Blox, but they actually tried to adapt their sports games to make them more appealing to Wii's audence with the "all-play" series. They tired a whole bunch of shit. Some of it stuck, most of it was a bust. They even took a lot of it to the Wii U before giving up entirely, and now their approach to Switch is as safe as safe can be.

And yes, total egg on my face about the Asssassin's creed series.



Mnementh on 22 October 2018
potato_hamster said:
Mnementh said:

I fall in the second group. Just look at Ubisoft. They did it. They try to cater to the audience. It doesn't always work out, but it does sometimes. Just Dance was created by Ubisoft for the Wii audience. And it worked out big time, it was a really big franchise. Only that Nintendo themself was playing at the next garden and gave up on motion gaming eroded the userbase for Just Dance over time.

Switch has a much more classical userbase, but not one that is after the last graphical things (obviously). So games that sell over technical feats - mostly action games and FPS - do sell badly on Switch. That's why it is mind-boggling that Bethesda tries themself at shooters on Switch so much. Doom and Wolfenstein do sell badly on Switch, but Bethesda is unphased. I think a manger is fan of Switch. Or Bethesda wants to be the one company that sells games to the Switch audience. That might work out.

But Switch has a userbase for Platformers, Metroidvanias, Brawlers, RPGs and adventures. Therefore pretty much everything in that categories is ported to Switch and sells great. Only this forum mostly cares about shooters and action-games. Therefore it seems Switch has bad 3rd-party support, while it actually gets pretty decent support, only in different genres.

Yeah, besides that AssCreed is Ubi not EA. Just wanted to say.

Ubisoft arem't the only ones that tried to cater to the audience. EA actually put a lot of effort into it especially in the Wii days. Not only did they come out with new IPs like Boom Blox, but they actually tried to adapt their sports games to make them more appealing to Wii's audence with the "all-play" series. They tired a whole bunch of shit. Some of it stuck, most of it was a bust. They even took a lot of it to the Wii U before giving up entirely, and now their approach to Switch is as safe as safe can be.

And yes, total egg on my face about the Asssassin's creed series.

Yes, you're right, EA tried actually on Wii. And with BoomBlox being a million seller I wouldn't say it was without success.

On Switch already are experiments underway. Go Vacation (Namco), Sports Party (Ubi), Hyper Sports R (Konami) for instance trying to get again at the motion sport games. Civilization shunned so far consoles but tries with Switch.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023

10 years greatest game event!

bets: [peak year] [+], [1], [2], [3], [4]

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potato_hamster on 22 October 2018
Mnementh said:
potato_hamster said:

Ubisoft arem't the only ones that tried to cater to the audience. EA actually put a lot of effort into it especially in the Wii days. Not only did they come out with new IPs like Boom Blox, but they actually tried to adapt their sports games to make them more appealing to Wii's audence with the "all-play" series. They tired a whole bunch of shit. Some of it stuck, most of it was a bust. They even took a lot of it to the Wii U before giving up entirely, and now their approach to Switch is as safe as safe can be.

And yes, total egg on my face about the Asssassin's creed series.

Yes, you're right, EA tried actually on Wii. And with BoomBlox being a million seller I wouldn't say it was without success.

On Switch already are experiments underway. Go Vacation (Namco), Sports Party (Ubi), Hyper Sports R (Konami) for instance trying to get again at the motion sport games. Civilization shunned so far consoles but tries with Switch.

I just want to be clear, I agree with you in General. I think Nintendo's audience does need to be treated differently than Sony or Microsoft's. It seems as times have gone on that Nitnendo's audience becomes narrower and narrower in its tastes, and I think it's smart to try and cater to that.

Nintendo doesn't get big third party games because third parties know that big games won't sell. The continuously test this in some form of another (like Bethesda is with the Switch) and they continuously get the same feed back - "This is neat and all, but we're really not that interested. Ohh look a new game published by Nintendo!".



WhatATimeToBeAlive on 22 October 2018
Mnementh said:
WhatATimeToBeAlive said:

But RPGs also (and games in general that focus on story and characters, so not just games "that sell over technical feats") sell better on PlayStation/Xbox. And action games contains many sub-genres, like action-adventure games (where majority of big 3rd party games belong). And just like Zelda BotW is an action-adventure game, so are games like Assassin's Creed, Tomb Raider, Red Dead Redemption,...

So when you look at big 3rd-party games support on Switch, it is lacking in action-adventure, RPG, shooter and driving genres (I would say shooters are actually on top with DOOM and Wolfenstein, since they are not last-gen ports).

You kinda make a strange argument that mixes RPGs with action games. RPGs sell well on Switch:

BattleChasers Nightwar: 55K on PS4, 41K on Switch, 30K on XB1

Ys VIII: 170K on PS4, 60K on Switch (it had 55K on PS4 at the same time after launch) and no release on XB1

Shining Resonance Refrain: 56K on PS4, 60K on Switch, 7K on XB1 (released first on PS4)

I am Setsuna: 74K on PS4, 49K on Switch, no Xbox release

Lost Sphear: 24K on PS4, 42K on Switch, no Xbox release

Switch releases of RPGs hold well against the PS4 version even as late ports and clearly outdo XBox version. Add to that exceptional sales of Switch-exclusive RPGs Octopath Traveler and Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and you can clearly see that Switch has a RPG-affine userbase. It matters for RPGs without a doubt more than the XBox One and does look not bad compared to PS4. Hence as a result the flood of RPG releases and announcements for Switch.

I am also not so sure about the driving genre. As I see it there are the simulation subgenre (Gran Turismo, Forza, etc.) which focuses on realistic physics and damage models. Besides that you have arcade racing, like Mario Kart, Sonic Racing, Burnout etc. The second one does actually pretty well on Switch with lots of releases, the first one is focusing more on PS4 and Xbox One.

But those aren't AAA games (or even AA), except Xenoblade Chronicles 2. And only Xenoblade and Octopath Traveler (and Skyrim) have sold well but not close to Witcher 3, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Final Fantasy XV,... numbers.



"The rumours of my death have been greatly exaggerated."

- Single-player Game

Megiddo on 22 October 2018

I'm super interested in seeing how Civ VI ends up doing on Switch. I'd have to think that the crossover between 4/5 X gamers and Switch owners is quite thin. That said the idea of playing Civ VI on an airplane without needing to buy an expensive laptop appeals to me greatly. So if others are like me (with more disposable income) I could see Civ VI maybe not doing very well in terms of pure software sales, but actually widening the currently relatively narrow demographic focus for the Switch.



Mnementh on 22 October 2018
potato_hamster said:
Mnementh said:

Yes, you're right, EA tried actually on Wii. And with BoomBlox being a million seller I wouldn't say it was without success.

On Switch already are experiments underway. Go Vacation (Namco), Sports Party (Ubi), Hyper Sports R (Konami) for instance trying to get again at the motion sport games. Civilization shunned so far consoles but tries with Switch.

I just want to be clear, I agree with you in General. I think Nintendo's audience does need to be treated differently than Sony or Microsoft's. It seems as times have gone on that Nitnendo's audience becomes narrower and narrower in its tastes, and I think it's smart to try and cater to that.

Nintendo doesn't get big third party games because third parties know that big games won't sell. The continuously test this in some form of another (like Bethesda is with the Switch) and they continuously get the same feed back - "This is neat and all, but we're really not that interested. Ohh look a new game published by Nintendo!".

I wouldn't that equal with big. Just Dance became insanely big. It's just that the usual 3rd-party publishers have a usual way of making games, and Nintendo breaks out of that. Which means the publishers have to make risks or just ignore Nintendo. If they take risks, they sometimes get rewarded like with Just Dance. But the other way is simpler and the CEO will get no shit in the investors conference.

WhatATimeToBeAlive said:
Mnementh said:

You kinda make a strange argument that mixes RPGs with action games. RPGs sell well on Switch:

BattleChasers Nightwar: 55K on PS4, 41K on Switch, 30K on XB1

Ys VIII: 170K on PS4, 60K on Switch (it had 55K on PS4 at the same time after launch) and no release on XB1

Shining Resonance Refrain: 56K on PS4, 60K on Switch, 7K on XB1 (released first on PS4)

I am Setsuna: 74K on PS4, 49K on Switch, no Xbox release

Lost Sphear: 24K on PS4, 42K on Switch, no Xbox release

Switch releases of RPGs hold well against the PS4 version even as late ports and clearly outdo XBox version. Add to that exceptional sales of Switch-exclusive RPGs Octopath Traveler and Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and you can clearly see that Switch has a RPG-affine userbase. It matters for RPGs without a doubt more than the XBox One and does look not bad compared to PS4. Hence as a result the flood of RPG releases and announcements for Switch.

I am also not so sure about the driving genre. As I see it there are the simulation subgenre (Gran Turismo, Forza, etc.) which focuses on realistic physics and damage models. Besides that you have arcade racing, like Mario Kart, Sonic Racing, Burnout etc. The second one does actually pretty well on Switch with lots of releases, the first one is focusing more on PS4 and Xbox One.

But those aren't AAA games (or even AA), except Xenoblade Chronicles 2. And only Xenoblade and Octopath Traveler (and Skyrim) have sold well but not close to Witcher 3, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Final Fantasy XV,... numbers.

Elder Scrolls is the same as Skyrim.

None of the big names you said is recent. Witcher and Fallout are from 2015, FFXV from 2016.I named current games. The currently released RPGs are for the most part on Switch and do sell well as pointed out in the numbers I gave. That's why even more RPGs come to Switch, most prominently with the Final Fantasies recently announced by Square.

Megiddo said:
I'm super interested in seeing how Civ VI ends up doing on Switch. I'd have to think that the crossover between 4/5 X gamers and Switch owners is quite thin. That said the idea of playing Civ VI on an airplane without needing to buy an expensive laptop appeals to me greatly. So if others are like me (with more disposable income) I could see Civ VI maybe not doing very well in terms of pure software sales, but actually widening the currently relatively narrow demographic focus for the Switch.

This is also a very interesting thing for me to watch. Civilization so far is PC centric and released on mobile (and I have no idea how much success they have there). I guess consoles have their draw, because on paper PC is just the better gaming platform, but still consoles are a thing. So I think the convenience of consoles keeps them alive. So that may build also the userbase for Civilization at Switch: gamers who don't care for PC-gaming but care for this gameplay. I think they expect 250-500K sales, if Civ sells 1M+ on Switch it probably secures future releases.

I'm also very interested if Anno and Settlers follow this move. Although looking at it, it seems like Settlers is dead. So... only Anno.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023

10 years greatest game event!

bets: [peak year] [+], [1], [2], [3], [4]

zorg1000 on 22 October 2018
Megiddo said:
I could see Civ VI maybe not doing very well in terms of pure software sales, but actually widening the currently relatively narrow demographic focus for the Switch.

I think this can be said for many 3rd party titles on Switch. Dark Souls, Doom, Diablo, Civilization, Skyrim, ARK, etc.

Are any of these games individually expected to move hardware or sell gangbusters? Probably not, but together can they build a more diverse library and increase the appeal of Switch to various demographics? Absolutely.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.