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Forums - General - ‘Rape Culture’ Is A MYTH | Change My Mind

SpokenTruth said:

Jackson Katz, a social researcher, asked men what they do on a daily basis to avoid being sexually assaulted. Then he asked women.

 

 

  • Rape culture is when women who come forward are questioned about what they were wearing.
  • Rape culture is when survivors who come forward are asked, “Were you drinking?”
  • Rape culture is when people say, “she was asking for it.”
  • Rape culture is when we teach women how to not get raped, instead of teaching men not to rape.
  • Rape culture is when the lyrics of Robin Thicke’s ‘Blurred Lines’ mirror the words of actual rapists and was the number one song in the country.
  • Rape culture is when the mainstream media mourns the end of the convicted Steubenville rapists’ football careers and does not mention the young girl who was victimized.
  • Rape culture is when cyberbullies take pictures of sexual assaults and harass their victims online after the fact, which in the cases of Audrie Pott and Rehtaeh Parsons tragically ended in their suicides.
  • Rape culture is when, in 31 states, rapists can legally sue for child custody if the rape results in pregnancy.
  • Rape culture is when college campus advisers tasked with supporting the student body, shame survivors who report their rapes. (Annie Clark, a campus activist, says an administrator at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill told her when she reported her rape, “Well… Rape is like football, if you look back on the game, and you’re the quarterback, Annie… is there anything you would have done differently?”)
  • Rape culture is when colleges are more concerned with getting sued by assailants than in supporting survivors. (Or at Occidental College, where students and administrators who advocated for survivors were terrorized for speaking out against the school’s insufficient reporting procedures.)

 

3. A judge who sentenced only 30 days in jail to a 50-year-old man who raped a 14-year-old girl (who later committed suicide), and defended that the girl was “older than her chronological age.”

4. Mothers who blame girls for posting sexy selfies and leading their sons into sin, instead of talking with their sons about their responsibility for their own sexual expression.

6. Supporting athletes who are charged with rape and calling their victims career-destroyers.

7. Companies that create decals of a woman bound and gagged in order to “promote their business.”

8. People who believe that girls “allow themselves to be raped.”

9. Journalists who substitute the word “sex” for “rape” – as if they’re the same thing.

10. Politicians distinguishing “legitimate rape” and stating that rape is “something that God intended to happen,” among other horrendous claims.

11. Calling college students who have the courage to report their rapes liars.

12. The ubiquity of street harassment – and how victims are told that they’re “overreacting” when they call it out.

13. Victims not being taken seriously when they report rapes to their university campuses.

14. Rape jokes – and people who defend them.

15. Sexual assault prevention education programs that focus on women being told to take measures to prevent rape instead of men being told not to rape.

16. The victimization of hospital patients, especially people with mental health issues and the elderly,  by the very people who are there to protect them.

17. Reddit threads with titles like “You just have to make sure she’s dead” when linking to the story of a 13-year-old girl in Pakistan being raped and buried alive.

18. Reddit threads dedicated to men causing women pain during sex (I’m not going to give the thread credence by linking to it).

19. Twitter hashtags that support accused rapists and blame victims.

20. Publicly defending celebrities accused of rape just because they’re celebrities and ignoring or denouncing what the victim has to say.

21. Assuming that false reporting for sexual assault cases are the norm, when in reality, they’re only 2-8%, which is on par with grand theft auto.

22. Only 3% of rapists ever serving a day in jail.

23. Women feeling less safe walking the streets at night than men do.

24. 1-in-5 women and 1-in-71 men having reported experiencing rape.

25. The fact that we have to condition ourselves not to use violent language in our everyday conversations.

 

We have a rape culture when the first thing we consider about the rape victim is why didn't they do something to prevent it and the first thing we consider about the alleged rapist is how this will impact his future.

 

Is your mind changed yet?

 

men are the victims of violent crime over 4 times that of women...

also if prison rape is included men are the victims of rape to a higher degree than women but of course we don't count hat because fuck men right?

but regardless, have you considered that perhaps women are influenced both by society and their own biology to worry about threats more?



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sundin13 said:
eva01beserk said:

1) If thouse 2 numbers where the same all along just one over a life time the other over a year then just multiply it wont work. I dont know either how to get the real number, but I can be sure its not as high as high as 1 in 5 or even 12.  

2) When the hell did I clam that unreported means false? Straw man much? Dont make up things I said please. I said very clearly that the way they get the unreported figures is all based on asuption. A  survey with no investigation means nothing and Im just saying that number should not be added toghether to the actual reported cases. just gime a reprted cases number and an unreported cases number. I will be happy to use that reported number even if its a wrong cuz it will be closer to the real number. And yes, the video claims its the best source we got. It never claimed or me, that is 100% acurate. I even stated before that i dont belive is still so high but im willing to use it just to play your game.

3) Never claimed you math is off. Its something a kid can do. My issue is with the statistics you are using. For that 34 to be acurate, you would have to asume that ridiculous high rate of assault. 

4) Im not sure where I saw it, but something like 80% off sexual assault cases come from university. and that the majority of thouse cases are things that would not be consider an assault 20 years ago. Dont quote me on this cuz Im trying to remember and might be completly wrong, but seems like a certain group who claim this, so it might be concntrated in certain areas(university/big citys). SO that number squews things off. While it wont change the number total, it could change the areas as where 80% of this might happen. So if your not around or the people you know there is a chance you will not meet any of theese victims. That probably means nothing but just a crazzy thought, if what I remember is correct.

1) Do you have anything to back that up? It seems to me that your argument has largely become "I feel like that doesn't seem right, so it must be wrong", which honestly isn't much of an argument.

2) Just ignoring the fact that sexual violence is often unreported and pretending that those crimes didn't exist does not make your numbers any more accurate. You are ignoring the prevailing body of knowledge and literally everything we know about crime reporting which states that rape is widely under-reported, in order to twist the numbers to somewhat agree with you. Ignoring the majority of sexual violence does not make anything more accurate. While there may be some small portion of false reports in BJS statistics, there is no reason to assume that these outnumber cases which are unreported in BJS statistics or cases that occur before an individual turns 12, or even that these are statistically significant. If anything, these numbers provided by the NCVS are likely to be an underestimate, not an overestimate. To argue that we cannot use the best data we have is to argue that we should not be having this conversation because any alternative you present will be worse. Unless you have a more comprehensive estimate (using only reported crimes is less comprehensive, not more comprehensive), you are not adding to this discussion.

3) So, for my math to be correct, you have to assume that the best estimate available is accurate. I don't consider this to be an issue here...

4) Yes, there are high risk populations, but that doesn't really change anything. We are talking about the average person here. That means that some people will know more individuals who have been victimized and some will know less. Still, the number here is so high that such variation does little to really change the point.

So you will just keep making up things I say. O well.



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

eva01beserk said:
sundin13 said:

1) Do you have anything to back that up? It seems to me that your argument has largely become "I feel like that doesn't seem right, so it must be wrong", which honestly isn't much of an argument.

2) Just ignoring the fact that sexual violence is often unreported and pretending that those crimes didn't exist does not make your numbers any more accurate. You are ignoring the prevailing body of knowledge and literally everything we know about crime reporting which states that rape is widely under-reported, in order to twist the numbers to somewhat agree with you. Ignoring the majority of sexual violence does not make anything more accurate. While there may be some small portion of false reports in BJS statistics, there is no reason to assume that these outnumber cases which are unreported in BJS statistics or cases that occur before an individual turns 12, or even that these are statistically significant. If anything, these numbers provided by the NCVS are likely to be an underestimate, not an overestimate. To argue that we cannot use the best data we have is to argue that we should not be having this conversation because any alternative you present will be worse. Unless you have a more comprehensive estimate (using only reported crimes is less comprehensive, not more comprehensive), you are not adding to this discussion.

3) So, for my math to be correct, you have to assume that the best estimate available is accurate. I don't consider this to be an issue here...

4) Yes, there are high risk populations, but that doesn't really change anything. We are talking about the average person here. That means that some people will know more individuals who have been victimized and some will know less. Still, the number here is so high that such variation does little to really change the point.

So you will just keep making up things I say. O well.

What did I say that was inaccurate? It is kind of hard to refute anything when you don't tell me what I should be refuting.

As for your previous claim that I wasn't accurately representing your argument, I think that was a misunderstanding of what this sentence meant:

"The most you can count is the 20% as actual numbers, then say theres another 4x as many women who "probably" where asaulted"

My reading of that was to say "you can only assume 20% of the total is truthful", which would imply that the other 80% was not truthful, but I think I misunderstood. I will admit that I misunderstood that bit. The reason I didn't go into this earlier was because I don't believe it really changes anything within the discussion. It makes your side more clear, but I don't think it changes any of my arguments.

 

As for this post, the only thing I can think of would be the implication that you would choose to ignore the unreported figure. I think that is substantiated by this sentence of yours:

"I will be happy to use that reported number even if its a wrong cuz it will be closer to the real number."

Basically, I read that as you saying that you want me to be using the smaller number because you arbitrarily feel that it is more accurate despite all evidence suggesting that rape and sexual assault is highly under-reported.

But again, if I misunderstood that sentence, I don't believe that changes the argument. My reading of your argument is that you are criticizing the use of unreported crimes in this discussion and advocating for the use of only reported crimes, or at least suggesting that utilizing unreported crimes is a significant over-estimate. I do not see enough evidence to support either of these positions. That is where I am arguing from.



Torillian said:
Qwark said:

Not voluntarily giving up a kidney and willingly killing a consious human being because its inconvenient are not even remotely the same. As for leaching the life out of someone. You do realise the female body is biologically designed to carry a child. It normally doesn't cause inreparable medical damage to a woman. Unlike abortion which is definitive.

You can't give someone the right to kill another human being once its consious. Unless said person chooses so. If you don't want to raise a child totally fine, plenty of people who. would want to adopt a child. Luckily where I live abortion after 22 weeks is actually forbidden by law. Since even if the woman wants to get rid of it the medical procedure is forbidden to execute by a doctor, unless there are very compelling nefical reasons. Although I guess you could cut it out after that periode and lay it in a couveuse. 

A foetus is an exsisting person just because it is in a womb and you can not see it doesn't mean it is non existant. A consious foetus is a lot more than just a bunch of cell that are building a person. A featus is in fact a developing human being and that person has the right not to be killed. The fact that you would regard a consious festus as a parasite and something that has no value at all, is pretty disturbing if you ask me. 

you're missing the point. If someone had failed/failing kidneys, do you think the government could conscript someone to put that person on dialysis until a donor came around? Because the person with kidney issues is certainly a conscious human being, but I think most would say that the government should not be able to force someone to take that burden on their body even if it's for the betterment of another. 

While I don't really like the idea of abortion at all, I would be willing to compromise if the system were designed in a certain way. This is just my personal opinion.

If the woman is not an adult, or is raped, or the man wants nothing to do with it, and she doesn't want it either, she should be able to choose to abort.

In the same scenario's, if the woman does want it, she should be able to choose to give birth and accept full responsibility of that child (with adult approval if she's not).

If however they are both consenting adults, and they both agree the point of the act is to create a life, if she changes her mind and no longer wants the child, but the man does, then she should have to give birth. The way I see it, that man owns the rights to his 'product' and therefore the rules that go along with that should basically be contractual. If he requires what comes of that 'product', a child, is to be given life, then it should be granted, or the contract would then be broken, and she should have to pay a price. That price should be enough that she has to think twice before trying to abort. The man would also need to accept 100% responsibility of that child.

This way woman should get their way the large majority of the time and in those cases shouldn't really hurt anybody else (but the unborn potentially). While there would need to be much more to this, as I most certainly haven't covered absolutely everything, I think it would please many more people than simply allowing woman to make the choice no matter what. I realize it's their body that holds the unborn, but that being wouldn't exist without that man's 'product'.



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Qwark said:
setsunatenshi said:

I agree same rights should be given to all humans. So if you take it to the logical conclusion, the woman is able to sustain her life without sucking it out of the potential child. The potential child, on the other hand, is not able to sustain itself without literally leaching life out of the woman that carries it, therefore the right of the woman to self determine what sucks the life out of her body is 100 times out of 100 the most important right to uphold. You literally can't force someone to hurt their own body to sustain another. If that was the case you would make it that a court could order you to donate a kidney if that could save another human's life. No one makes that argument because it's obviously absurd, so how can it be valid for the anti choice crowd? 

 

We don't even need to get to the point that 1 of those beings is actually conscient, thinking and able to make decisions, while the other is literally not existing as a person yet. 

Not voluntarily giving up a kidney and willingly killing a consious human being because its inconvenient are not even remotely the same. As for leaching the life out of someone. You do realise the female body is biologically designed to carry a child. It normally doesn't cause inreparable medical damage to a woman. Unlike abortion which is definitive.

You can't give someone the right to kill another human being once its consious. Unless said person chooses so. If you don't want to raise a child totally fine, plenty of people who. would want to adopt a child. Luckily where I live abortion after 22 weeks is actually forbidden by law. Since even if the woman wants to get rid of it the medical procedure is forbidden to execute by a doctor, unless there are very compelling nefical reasons. Although I guess you could cut it out after that periode and lay it in a couveuse. 

A foetus is an exsisting person just because it is in a womb and you can not see it doesn't mean it is non existant. A consious foetus is a lot more than just a bunch of cell that are building a person. A featus is in fact a developing human being and that person has the right not to be killed. The fact that you would regard a consious festus as a parasite and something that has no value at all, is pretty disturbing if you ask me. 

 

You're somehow missing the main point here. It's absolutely irrelevant what potential human will come out of that bunch of cells. You can't force another person to sustain that bunch of cells and carry them inside their own body, literally feeding of their body, just because you want to preserve it until birth.

 

You are trying to impose your will on another person's body and you do not have that right. 

 

I'll give you an even less intrusive example than the kidney one. 

 

If someone is about to die unless you donate blood, no one can force you to donate blood to save that person's life. 

 

Think about that for a second. We recognize that the right of self determination trumps the duty of saving another's life. This is the exact same right you're trying to subvert by creating a special exception that the woman's rights to her own body autonomy is lower than the rights you want to give a potential human.

 

If the fetus is viable outside the womb, feel free to take care of it yourself, just don't try to impose your will on others. 

 

I'll disregard your disturbed feelings, about what I consider the fetus to be, as irrelevant to the discussion. 



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EricHiggin said:
Torillian said:

you're missing the point. If someone had failed/failing kidneys, do you think the government could conscript someone to put that person on dialysis until a donor came around? Because the person with kidney issues is certainly a conscious human being, but I think most would say that the government should not be able to force someone to take that burden on their body even if it's for the betterment of another. 

While I don't really like the idea of abortion at all, I would be willing to compromise if the system were designed in a certain way. This is just my personal opinion.

If the woman is not an adult, or is raped, or the man wants nothing to do with it, and she doesn't want it either, she should be able to choose to abort.

In the same scenario's, if the woman does want it, she should be able to choose to give birth and accept full responsibility of that child (with adult approval if she's not).

If however they are both consenting adults, and they both agree the point of the act is to create a life, if she changes her mind and no longer wants the child, but the man does, then she should have to give birth. The way I see it, that man owns the rights to his 'product' and therefore the rules that go along with that should basically be contractual. If he requires what comes of that 'product', a child, is to be given life, then it should be granted, or the contract would then be broken, and she should have to pay a price. That price should be enough that she has to think twice before trying to abort. The man would also need to accept 100% responsibility of that child.

This way woman should get their way the large majority of the time and in those cases shouldn't really hurt anybody else (but the unborn potentially). While there would need to be much more to this, as I most certainly haven't covered absolutely everything, I think it would please many more people than simply allowing woman to make the choice no matter what. I realize it's their body that holds the unborn, but that being wouldn't exist without that man's 'product'.

When the man can carry a pregnancy inside his body, he'll get the right to decide. 

I don't give any woman the right to decide what happens inside my testicles just because they carry potential life. 



setsunatenshi said:
EricHiggin said:

While I don't really like the idea of abortion at all, I would be willing to compromise if the system were designed in a certain way. This is just my personal opinion.

If the woman is not an adult, or is raped, or the man wants nothing to do with it, and she doesn't want it either, she should be able to choose to abort.

In the same scenario's, if the woman does want it, she should be able to choose to give birth and accept full responsibility of that child (with adult approval if she's not).

If however they are both consenting adults, and they both agree the point of the act is to create a life, if she changes her mind and no longer wants the child, but the man does, then she should have to give birth. The way I see it, that man owns the rights to his 'product' and therefore the rules that go along with that should basically be contractual. If he requires what comes of that 'product', a child, is to be given life, then it should be granted, or the contract would then be broken, and she should have to pay a price. That price should be enough that she has to think twice before trying to abort. The man would also need to accept 100% responsibility of that child.

This way woman should get their way the large majority of the time and in those cases shouldn't really hurt anybody else (but the unborn potentially). While there would need to be much more to this, as I most certainly haven't covered absolutely everything, I think it would please many more people than simply allowing woman to make the choice no matter what. I realize it's their body that holds the unborn, but that being wouldn't exist without that man's 'product'.

When the man can carry a pregnancy inside his body, he'll get the right to decide. 

I don't give any woman the right to decide what happens inside my testicles just because they carry potential life. 

What about woman who define themselves as men, who become pregnant?

You do. The fact you require consent, even though you could do with her as you please, means she has the right to control your body to a degree.

That's like saying when a woman can physically defeat a man she'll be given the right to decide, but until then, don't tell men what they can and can't do with their bodies, even though what they do with those bodies, may negatively impact woman. We agree that's not fair because men and woman aren't the same biologically, so the men are expected to withhold their physical strength to overpower a woman. Why is the fact a woman is different biologically in terms of reproductive organs, a good enough reason to negatively impact men then? If we all agree that men shouldn't rape woman because that's harmful to woman, then we should also be able to agree that woman shouldn't be able to kill the unborn because that's harmful to men.

This is part of the reason why I'm not entirely on board with abortion, yet would be willing to compromise to at least make it as acceptable for as many as possible.

Last edited by EricHiggin - on 09 October 2018

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PRO  -&- We must build a console that Super Res upscales and continues the cost increases.

EricHiggin said:
setsunatenshi said:

When the man can carry a pregnancy inside his body, he'll get the right to decide. 

I don't give any woman the right to decide what happens inside my testicles just because they carry potential life. 

What about woman who define themselves as men, who become pregnant?

You do. The fact you require consent, even though you could do with her as you please, means she has the right to control your body to a degree.

That's like saying when a woman can physically defeat a man she'll be given the right to decide, but until then, don't tell men what they can and can't do with their bodies, even though what they do with those bodies, may negatively impact woman. We agree that's not fair because men and woman aren't the same biologically, so the men are expected to withhold their physical strength to overpower a woman. Why is the fact a woman is different biologically in terms of reproductive organs, a good enough reason to negatively impact men then? If we all agree that men shouldn't rape woman because that's harmful to woman, then we should also be able to agree that woman shouldn't be able to kill the unborn because that's harmful to men.

This is part of the reason why I'm not entirely on board with abortion, yet would be willing to compromise to at least make it as acceptable for as many as possible.

You missed the point so radically that I'm not sure english is your first or second language even. 

 

Woman that identify as a man or as a horse makes no difference, only she has the right to decide what life her body supports. If she wants to carry a pregnancy full term that's fine, if she doesn't that's her choice too. Can you follow so far?

 

The father's input should be as valid as the mother's as soon as the child is born. Until that point, as long as only the fetus is leeching off of the mother's life force, only her input is really important on wether she wants to carry it full term or terminate the pregnancy. 

 

Will you somehow misinterpret this? I was never about physical dominance and who is stronger, I have absolutely no idea where you came up with that. A woman not deciding what goes on inside my testicles has nothing to do with some rape fantasy you came up with (how the hell did you even go there?) 



setsunatenshi said:
eva01beserk said:

Like I said before, these people have no argument. They express their feeling but no actual facts when they have nothing of worth to say. 

I also believe its a strategy the feminist started using that Since men cant experience what they feel during rape, then they cant argue with them about how they think its worst thing in the world. Even worst than murder. Its a way to shut down an argument by saying basically they cant weigh in since they dont have the experience. Like the no uterus no opinion on abortion thing.  

I was kind of with you on the argument until you brought in the abortion thing to misrepresent the pro choice principle. It's not like you can't have an opinion on abortion, but the principle of self determination overwhelms your opinions on it. It's 100% a woman's choice how she intends to use her body and no one can impose the physical drain of carrying anything within her body against her will.

 

Her body, her choice, period. 

I don't want to start another argument here, but what you are saying only works if the girl is raped. When i woman is raped and gets pregnant am 100% on board with abortion. But when they choose to have sex they have to face the consequences, they know what can happen if they have unprotected sex, or even the chances of getting pregnant using condoms or pills. 



Pachofilauri said:
setsunatenshi said:

I was kind of with you on the argument until you brought in the abortion thing to misrepresent the pro choice principle. It's not like you can't have an opinion on abortion, but the principle of self determination overwhelms your opinions on it. It's 100% a woman's choice how she intends to use her body and no one can impose the physical drain of carrying anything within her body against her will.

 

Her body, her choice, period. 

I don't want to start another argument here, but what you are saying only works if the girl is raped. When i woman is raped and gets pregnant am 100% on board with abortion. But when they choose to have sex they have to face the consequences, they know what can happen if they have unprotected sex, or even the chances of getting pregnant using condoms or pills. 

They made a choice given certain possible risks, but that doesn't mean we should disallow them from making any choices about the issue after the fact. If you drive a motorcycle you have a non-zero chance of getting into an accident, but if an accident occurs we don't just leave you to your own devices and say "well he knew the risks now he has to face the consequences". 



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