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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Aonuma feels that Breath of the Wild’s freedom needs to be maintained in future Zelda games

AngryLittleAlchemist said:
curl-6 said:

I hope they keep weapon durability, it kept things fresh and interesting by not allowing me to lean too heavily on one weapon and constantly changing up my arsenal. 

I used to feel this way but now I'm not so sure. The obvious advantages of weapon durability are making the game more like a survival game, encouraging the use of different weapons, and making for fun random moments. The obvious disadvantage is that combat is based more on weapon durability than skill, the weapons get destroyed way too easily, and instead of making a plethora of actually interesting and diverse weapons to account for wanting to experiment with your roster you pretty much have to because of weapon durability. 

As I see it it's a tie in terms of pros and cons, if not a little bit more cons than pros

I didn't think combat was more durability than skill focused at all, all the durability in the world wouldn't help you if you didn't have the skill to plan and execute your attack. And I thought there was plenty of weapon diversity, you had everything from swords to clubs to axes to spears to hammers to bows to wands, you had weapons of steel, wood, bone, fire, ice, electric. Taking away the durability would have made it a lot less dynamic and exciting IMHO; I appreciated each weapon all the more for being finite, and you can't just pick one and overuse it.



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curl-6 said:

I didn't think combat was more durability than skill focused at all, all the durability in the world wouldn't help you if you didn't have the skill to plan and execute your attack. And I thought there was plenty of weapon diversity, you had everything from swords to clubs to axes to spears to hammers, you had weapons of steel, wood, bone, fire, ice, electric. Taking away the durability would have made it a lot less dynamic and exciting IMHO, you appreciate each weapon all the more for its brevity, and you can't just pick one and overuse it.

Like I said, it's a double edged sword but I can practically guarantee that combat is more based on durability than skill. You can literally pause the game and heal all you'd like in the middle of combat, a luxury your AI combatants don't have. The combat in the game is based almost entirely on easy to defeat minions or mini-bosses, and the mini bosses are extremely easy to figure out after a couple of tries. The only concern during those battles is your weapon durability and not your skill, and it can actually make the game less fun when you spend almost an entire arsenal on an enemy to find out the rewards are shitty or mediocre. 

There IS a lot of weapon diversity don't get me wrong, but that isn't the same as making really unique weapons or weapons with special traits(not stuff like "fire sword" or "ice stick") that make you naturally want to switch out weapons. I'm not sure the combat system of Zelda could really handle unique weaponry because there isn't a lot in the game as is, but it would be cool to see more stuff akin to Dark Souls(yes I'm sorry this example is used all the time) which had a shit ton of cool weapons to try out. 

The durability definitely adds an element of dynamic and exciting combat but after the 30th weapon break it gets old. It rarely feels like it excites you, it's mostly just an "Ugh, ok. Now I have to Switch over to this weapon now." It also breaks the momentum of battle because of BOTW's shitty UI. 



Remove/tweak weapon durability
Add legitimate dungeons



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AngryLittleAlchemist said:
curl-6 said:

I didn't think combat was more durability than skill focused at all, all the durability in the world wouldn't help you if you didn't have the skill to plan and execute your attack. And I thought there was plenty of weapon diversity, you had everything from swords to clubs to axes to spears to hammers, you had weapons of steel, wood, bone, fire, ice, electric. Taking away the durability would have made it a lot less dynamic and exciting IMHO, you appreciate each weapon all the more for its brevity, and you can't just pick one and overuse it.

Like I said, it's a double edged sword but I can practically guarantee that combat is more based on durability than skill. You can literally pause the game and heal all you'd like in the middle of combat, a luxury your AI combatants don't have. The combat in the game is based almost entirely on easy to defeat minions or mini-bosses, and the mini bosses are extremely easy to figure out after a couple of tries. The only concern during those battles is your weapon durability and not your skill, and it can actually make the game less fun when you spend almost an entire arsenal on an enemy to find out the rewards are shitty or mediocre. 

There IS a lot of weapon diversity don't get me wrong, but that isn't the same as making really unique weapons or weapons with special traits(not stuff like "fire sword" or "ice stick") that make you naturally want to switch out weapons. I'm not sure the combat system of Zelda could really handle unique weaponry because there isn't a lot in the game as is, but it would be cool to see more stuff akin to Dark Souls(yes I'm sorry this example is used all the time) which had a shit ton of cool weapons to try out. 

The durability definitely adds an element of dynamic and exciting combat but after the 30th weapon break it gets old. It rarely feels like it excites you, it's mostly just an "Ugh, ok. Now I have to Switch over to this weapon now." It also breaks the momentum of battle because of BOTW's shitty UI. 

You can't heal endlessly though, you can only heal as much as you've got healing items for, so that's a matter of planning. If you're finding yourself continuously burning through nearly all of your arsenal in fights, then you might need to plan better; save your stronger weapons for stronger foes, make use of other offensive options like bombs, physics, or bows.



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Yes please.

I loved it in BotW

Just add longer and actual dungeons and it'll be perfect.

 

Keep the weapon durability, it actually made it more fun.



    

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curl-6 said:

You can't heal endlessly though, you can only heal as much as you've got healing items for, so that's a matter of planning. If you're finding yourself continuously burning through nearly all of your arsenal in fights, then you might need to plan better; save your stronger weapons for stronger foes, make use of other offensive options like bombs, physics, or bows.

Lol COME ON, you know what I mean when you say you can heal endlessly. It's practically endless, getting healing items in the game is so easy and it's so easy to abuse that fact in combat(if you even need to). 

I don't mean to argue this point as if you're constantly running out of weaponry. I wasn't. But it didn't change the fact that the weapon durability system could get very annoying, and considering the amount of hours invested in the game I was surprised by how often it annoyed me. The game is fairly easy so the durability wasn't a concern for me, but regardless there are some areas where you're pretty much graded based on durability and durability alone. A test of strength and skill is great, a test of a numerical value rarely is. 

And if your excuse is  really "then you might need to plan better", then I think you need to think this through a bit more. Isn't BOTW supposed to be one of the most robust games in recent memory? A game being robust shouldn't excuse challenge, but when the challenge is your weapon set and not your skill it's kind of dumb. Especially because the game already rewards you or penalizes you for having good or bad weapons, since those weapons are easier or harder to kill with(duh). A robust game like breath of the wild telling you that your efforts are fruitless because your weapon's durability isn't high enough is kind of stupid, because the game is literally based on the idea of seeing an epic landmark and wanting to go there and explore what's there. The gameplay of the game is improvisational, it's not always supposed to be planned. Secondly, like I said I'm not really talking entirely from personal experience. It's not like i'm entirely against the system or that I was constantly losing because my weapons broke. It happened occasionally but not enough to make me hate the game. Still, when it happened it was usually annoying, and I think it's a debate worth having though. Again, not against weapon durability but I do think it's about as good as it is bad



AngryLittleAlchemist said:
curl-6 said:

You can't heal endlessly though, you can only heal as much as you've got healing items for, so that's a matter of planning. If you're finding yourself continuously burning through nearly all of your arsenal in fights, then you might need to plan better; save your stronger weapons for stronger foes, make use of other offensive options like bombs, physics, or bows.

Lol COME ON, you know what I mean when you say you can heal endlessly. It's practically endless, getting healing items in the game is so easy and it's so easy to abuse that fact in combat(if you even need to). 

I don't mean to argue this point as if you're constantly running out of weaponry. I wasn't. But it didn't change the fact that the weapon durability system could get very annoying, and considering the amount of hours invested in the game I was surprised by how often it annoyed me. The game is fairly easy so the durability wasn't a concern for me, but regardless there are some areas where you're pretty much graded based on durability and durability alone. A test of strength and skill is great, a test of a numerical value rarely is. 

And if your excuse is  really "then you might need to plan better", then I think you need to think this through a bit more. Isn't BOTW supposed to be one of the most robust games in recent memory? A game being robust shouldn't excuse challenge, but when the challenge is your weapon set and not your skill it's kind of dumb. Especially because the game already rewards you or penalizes you for having good or bad weapons, since those weapons are easier or harder to kill with(duh). A robust game like breath of the wild telling you that your efforts are fruitless because your weapon's durability isn't high enough is kind of stupid, because the game is literally based on the idea of seeing an epic landmark and wanting to go there and explore what's there. The gameplay of the game is improvisational, it's not always supposed to be planned. Secondly, like I said I'm not really talking entirely from personal experience. It's not like i'm entirely against the system or that I was constantly losing because my weapons broke. It happened occasionally but not enough to make me hate the game. Still, when it happened it was usually annoying, and I think it's a debate worth having though. Again, not against weapon durability but I do think it's about as good as it is bad

Part of skill though is not just in the execution, but in strategy and weapon management. It's knowing when to use the right tool for the right job; for example you can kill weapon's durability by whacking it fruitlessly against an enemy's shield, or you can use a heavy weapon to bat the shield away, a fire weapon to burn it if it's wood, or an electric weapon to shock the enemy through it if it's metal.

You can also kill foes without even drawing your sword/club/axe by rolling rocks down hills, using your limitless rune bombs, using magnesis to hit them with metal objects, setting dry grass around them on fire, etc.



Bet with Liquidlaser: I say PS5 and Xbox Series will sell more than 56 million combined by the end of 2023.

curl-6 said: 

Honestly no offense curl but at this point it just sounds like you're making excuses for a system that has very obvious flaws .... what's the point in pretending like it's perfect? And if you respond with "Well I don't think it's perfect (nothing is perfect!)" then your testament certainly doesn't correlate with that philosophy. 

"Part of skill though is not just in the execution, but in strategy and weapon management. It's knowing when to use the right tool for the right job;"

Sure, your examples are quite good by the way. But really your contesting a point I never made. I'm not stupid, I know that part of skill is strategy. But again you're stating things very blankly like it's a black and white procedure. It isn't. You're often not going to know how much hits you have left before your weapon breaks(I don't even remember if the stat is in the game but even if it is again the game is not menu simulator 2017 and since I have so many hours in the game it's likely people won't even come across the stat if it's even shown in the game). Of course the moment you see a powerful enemy , you usually have enough time to come up with a strategy, though even that's now always the case. Your point would only work if Breath of the Wild was a purely strategical game, but it isn't. It's improvisational and I don't think they've found the right balance yet between the pros of weapon durability and the cons of it. Maybe it should be in the sequel, but it needs some major adjustments. 

You can also kill foes without even drawing your sword/cub/axe by rolling rocks down hills, using your limitless rune bombs, using magnesis to hit them with metal objects, setting dry grass around them on fire, etc. "

Do you know how BULLSHIT that shit is? Gosh, I fucking hate the rune bombs! Even when I upgraded them they felt so annoying to use over and over and over again. The metal objects can be used effectively but quite rarely. The dry grass fires are better for soaring the skies than actually fighting enemies. Again you are kind of reaching, if anything I felt like after a while BOTW wasn't flexible enough with these mechanics. 



AngryLittleAlchemist said:
curl-6 said: 

Honestly no offense curl but at this point it just sounds like you're making excuses for a system that has very obvious flaws .... what's the point in pretending like it's perfect? And if you respond with "Well I don't think it's perfect (nothing is perfect!)" then your testament certainly doesn't correlate with that philosophy. 

"Part of skill though is not just in the execution, but in strategy and weapon management. It's knowing when to use the right tool for the right job;"

Sure, your examples are quite good by the way. But really your contesting a point I never made. I'm not stupid, I know that part of skill is strategy. But again you're stating things very blankly like it's a black and white procedure. It isn't. You're often not going to know how much hits you have left before your weapon breaks(I don't even remember if the stat is in the game but even if it is again the game is not menu simulator 2017 and since I have so many hours in the game it's likely people won't even come across the stat if it's even shown in the game). Of course the moment you see a powerful enemy , you usually have enough time to come up with a strategy, though even that's now always the case. Your point would only work if Breath of the Wild was a purely strategical game, but it isn't. It's improvisational and I don't think they've found the right balance yet between the pros of weapon durability and the cons of it. Maybe it should be in the sequel, but it needs some major adjustments. 

You can also kill foes without even drawing your sword/cub/axe by rolling rocks down hills, using your limitless rune bombs, using magnesis to hit them with metal objects, setting dry grass around them on fire, etc. "

Do you know how BULLSHIT that shit is? Gosh, I fucking hate the rune bombs! Even when I upgraded them they felt so annoying to use over and over and over again. The metal objects can be used effectively but quite rarely. The dry grass fires are better for soaring the skies than actually fighting enemies. Again you are kind of reaching, if anything I felt like after a while BOTW wasn't flexible enough with these mechanics. 

 I simply don't see any major cons with the system as it exists now.

Weapons that are low on durability flash red on the menu and a message pops up on screen notifying you that it's badly damaged, so the player will always know when their weapon is at breaking point.



Bet with Liquidlaser: I say PS5 and Xbox Series will sell more than 56 million combined by the end of 2023.

Weapon durability is kind of essential in the formula for encouraging people to hunt a variety of different monsters and explore different locations and using a variety of different weapons. Otherwise the game becomes basically nothing but avoiding everything bigger than a Bokoblin and killing everything with an unbreakable savage Lynel Crusher and Savage Lynel Bow. Otherwise, remove everything cool from the game because it’s overpowered and invincible.

Last edited by Jumpin - on 31 December 2017

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