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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Consoles and Their Wannabe Resolution.

DonFerrari on 16 June 2017
Captain_Yuri said:
DonFerrari said:

What implementation and if it doesn't add much why was it added? Just to show a pretty number?

You can read more here since it is quite a deep analysis.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/11250/microsofts-project-scorpio-more-hardware-details-revealed

Remember that he didn't have the actual hardware at the time however due to the details from DF and etc, he did make a pretty well educated guess as to what was happening and really, as we are starting to see, his guesses were right so far.

"What makes things especially interesting though is that Microsoft didn’t just switch out DDR3 for GDDR5, but they’re using a wider memory bus as well; expanding it by 50% to 384-bits wide. Not only does this even further expand the console’s memory bandwidth – now to a total of 326GB/sec, or 4.8x the XB1’s DDR3 – but it means we have an odd mismatch between the ROP backends and the memory bus. Briefly, the ROP backends and memory bus are typically balanced 1-to-1 in a GPU, so a single memory controller will feed 1 or two ROP partitions. However in this case, we have a 384-bit bus feeding 32 ROPs, which is not a compatible mapping."

"What this means is that at some level, Microsoft is running an additional memory crossbar in the SoC, which would be very similar to what AMD did back in 2012 with the Radeon HD 7970. Because the console SoC needs to split its memory bandwidth between the CPU and the GPU, things aren’t as cut and dry here as they are with discrete GPUs. But, at a high level, what we saw from the 7970 is that the extra bandwidth + crossbar setup did not offer much of a benefit over a straight-connected, lower bandwidth configuration. Accordingly, AMD has never done it again in their dGPUs. So I think it will be very interesting to see if developers can consistently consume more than 218GB/sec or so of bandwidth using the GPU."

I see... I hope Pemalite gives an overview on it and tell us what to expect from this. Maybe the gain isn't linear, but I doubt it would be negible unless it's only for marketing and it costed almost zero but that would make no sense.

So perhaps AMD discovered a way to make it work



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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Jizz_Beard_thePirate on 16 June 2017
DonFerrari said:
Captain_Yuri said:

You can read more here since it is quite a deep analysis.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/11250/microsofts-project-scorpio-more-hardware-details-revealed

Remember that he didn't have the actual hardware at the time however due to the details from DF and etc, he did make a pretty well educated guess as to what was happening and really, as we are starting to see, his guesses were right so far.

"What makes things especially interesting though is that Microsoft didn’t just switch out DDR3 for GDDR5, but they’re using a wider memory bus as well; expanding it by 50% to 384-bits wide. Not only does this even further expand the console’s memory bandwidth – now to a total of 326GB/sec, or 4.8x the XB1’s DDR3 – but it means we have an odd mismatch between the ROP backends and the memory bus. Briefly, the ROP backends and memory bus are typically balanced 1-to-1 in a GPU, so a single memory controller will feed 1 or two ROP partitions. However in this case, we have a 384-bit bus feeding 32 ROPs, which is not a compatible mapping."

"What this means is that at some level, Microsoft is running an additional memory crossbar in the SoC, which would be very similar to what AMD did back in 2012 with the Radeon HD 7970. Because the console SoC needs to split its memory bandwidth between the CPU and the GPU, things aren’t as cut and dry here as they are with discrete GPUs. But, at a high level, what we saw from the 7970 is that the extra bandwidth + crossbar setup did not offer much of a benefit over a straight-connected, lower bandwidth configuration. Accordingly, AMD has never done it again in their dGPUs. So I think it will be very interesting to see if developers can consistently consume more than 218GB/sec or so of bandwidth using the GPU."

I see... I hope Pemalite gives an overview on it and tell us what to expect from this. Maybe the gain isn't linear, but I doubt it would be negible unless it's only for marketing and it costed almost zero but that would make no sense.

Well it is certainly not negible and no one will know for sure until it is out. The point he is trying to make however is that in order to use that bandwidth, it's not as straight forward as it usually is which might lead to developers not bothering with it at all since this is not base level hardware. The more time they spend optimizing for ps4 pro/xbox scorpio, the more time they waste not developing other games and etc. This generation has really been quite an unique generation since devs now have to develop for 5 devices for the most part and 6 if you include the switch.

But again, until we have the hardware in our hands, it's still speculation but it would explain why Xbox One X isn't achieving 4k as widely as it should with third party games.



                  

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SegataSanshiro on 16 June 2017

Tekken 7 864P PS4. 720P PS4. So if it came it Switch 480P? Yeah I don't care anymore about resolution it's such BS. I rather games be 720P and 60FPS than 1080P and 30FPS or lower.



jonathanalis on 16 June 2017

checkerboarding is way better than regular upscaling.



DonFerrari on 16 June 2017
Captain_Yuri said:
DonFerrari said:

I see... I hope Pemalite gives an overview on it and tell us what to expect from this. Maybe the gain isn't linear, but I doubt it would be negible unless it's only for marketing and it costed almost zero but that would make no sense.

Well it is certainly not negible and no one will know for sure until it is out. The point he is trying to make however is that in order to use that bandwidth, it's not as straight forward as it usually is which might lead to developers not bothering with it at all since this is not base level hardware. The more time they spend optimizing for ps4 pro/xbox scorpio, the more time they waste not developing other games and etc. This generation has really been quite an unique generation since devs now have to develop for 5 devices for the most part and 6 if you include the switch.

But again, until we have the hardware in our hands, it's still speculation but it would explain why Xbox One X isn't achieving 4k as widely as it should with third party games.

And for that we need 1st party, but MS isn't the one to be really investing on that part. But at least they can improve the dev tools so devs won't have to take much effort to use this unique design, because otherwise I agree there will be very limited benefit.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Around the Network
hinch on 16 June 2017

True its marketing fluff but then anyone with some knowledge of PC parts know that the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X aren't capable of handling ALL games in native 4K.

Lets be real people. A $500/400 system with a mid/low end GPU is not going to do that. There will be compromises to hit that price point. However we do have features like checkerboard upscaling which does work around that. Checkerboard upscaling (in motion) compares very favorably vs native 4K. And is a feature I'd like to see on PC's also.

Anyway, anyone who cares about resolution should just play on PC..



vivster on 16 June 2017
Mr Puggsly said:
vivster said:

Not all the blame. But since it is apparent that console developers won't do it unless they're forced, console makers drawing a line would be a great first step.

They arent being forced.

Some games allow changing of resolution, frame cap, vsync, etc.

Yes, I'm so glad that 0.2% of games do that. Let's give everyone else a rest, they will surely come around soon. Yeah, right.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

KBG29 on 16 June 2017

It is a silly war. Resolution is really 100% up to developers. The Pro and the X are kind of locked to into a what they can achieve by the PS4 and XBO. 720p is about the bare minimum that is acceptable from the base consoles. So whatever PS4 and XBO can do at 720p - 1080p, Pro and X will do between 1080p - 4K native or upscaled.

The power of the hardware is kind of a mute point when it comes to resolution though. You could bring a PC with the new i9 or 1950X, and a 1080ti all the way down to 540p/30fps with perfectly optimized code. It all depends on how much you want/need to process.

That is why stuff like Forza 7, Wipeout Omega Collection, or Sports Titles will run at 4K/60 native on Pro and X. They are not expensive to run. Stuff like Horizon, Anthem, Destiny, and such will be at 1440p, 1800p CB or 4K CB, because there is a lot more going on in every aspect.

For me both the Pro and the X are just fine. Fake 4K, 1440p, it all loks fine on a traditional display. That is what they are aiming at, and they achieve their goal. Now when we step into VR it is a whole different story. Even native 4K is not even close to good. We are going to need at least 8K/33MP for things to start looking, but I don't think we will reach near life like quaility until we hit 16K/132MP with a 180 degree Field of View. VR is going to be a Resolution/Mega Pixel war, because it really matters in that medium right now. Traditional displays have reached the point of massively deminishing returns.



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Sprash on 16 June 2017

Thank god, I'm the type of gamer who replays ff8 on the ps1 and always blown away how awesome it looks, don't give a crap about resolution.



 

 

COKTOE on 16 June 2017
Pemalite said:
arcaneguyver said:
I liken it a bit to 7th gen - PS3 & 360 could output 1080p, but most games could barely keep 30fps at 720p. Now PS4P & XB1X can output 4k, but most games can at best run a stable 30fps with checkerboarding. At least this gen we have mostly stable frames and better upscaling.

The Original Xbox could do high-definition as well. Most games were 480P with a few that were HD.

Just for fun, no google, going only by my addled memory, I think there were several games on the original Xbox that were 720p and a handful of 1080p.

Edit - Ok I checked. 38. Not too many. And 720p or 1080i. Derp. It's been so long, I forgot about the "i".



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