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Forums - Gaming - VGC Weapon Durability MEGA Thread

archer9234 said:

I'd also abuse the world areas too. Want to kill a hard enemy. Trick them into the cold area. They die from it. Or get them in the water. Or wait them out. Since they'd have to also eat the heat food. While they heal, hit them.

Unfortunately they don't follow you very far, which is also fortunate since you can easily run away and you can use it to split up groups coming after you as they all have the same fixed distance of return from their starting point.



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archer9234 said:
SvennoJ said:

On the otherhand, imagine if all the enemies constantly block your attacks, dodge and heal all the time. I guess it's a fair trade off :)

I just helped my 7 year old defeat the Lynal at Zora's domain. You probably don't need to do that (just need to collect arrows) yet I couldn't resist. After 45 minutes he's finally down. Used up a 26 Shuriken, a 24 2-hand sword, 18 spear and 12 spear. Pretty much only used flurry attacks yet still used up one 40 shield, damaged a second. He got a 10x3 bow, 24 sword and 30 shield out of it. So pretty much a downgrade overall. And 10 shock arrows. (needed 20)

Luckily the AI is quite stupid. At any point the Lynal could have pulled out his bow and one shotted me (he does if you get too far away from him) That armor is just for show too, any hit was fatal. And now watch his new 24 sword break after 2 fights :)

It's a shame that the special moves still break your equipment just as fast. There seems to be no difference in the amount of hits you can make between special and normal attacks. It's just easier on the shield and saves a bit of time when you get the timing down. Plus it's the only way a slow 2-hander is of much use against him.

I'd also abuse the world areas too. Want to kill a hard enemy. Trick them into the cold area. They die from it. Or get them in the water. Or wait them out. Since they'd have to also eat the heat food. While they heal, hit them.

Peh said:

Well, you can also watch the ending on youtube. If that's your approach to games, then why care at all, right?

You are side steping my point. They way the Zelda locked out the worlds in the past. Not to mention Zelda 1 having no breaking. Is still better than this system. Because I'll actually bother to go to extra areas. And not care if I get junk for it.

Peh said:

I think he makes really good points regarding breakable weapons.

For instance... .in an open free world you can go everywhere and even to places with difficult enemies. From there you could grab a really strong weapon and go back to the easier accessable parts of the game and just run through it. Thus having breakable weapons adjust and balance the difficulty level of the game and will still make it a challenge.

A point. But something I don't like. And really isn't better than the normal restrict areas, till later approach. Plus, you'd wouldn't know what's strong or not, when you first started the game. It also has a not caring affect. Since I'm getting mad at the annoyances. I'm not grabing a lot of weapons. Not caring that much to fight a harder enemy. So I wouldn't get getting a OP weapon. Unless just grab, by happen stance. It's still easier to avoid, and just do the temple.

The game is very simliar to Pokemon. If you have the patience. You can abuse the open world. I've done this. I've started the game. And stayed in the same starting area. I leveled my one Pokemon, to level 36. So I had its final form. I blew through the entire game. That's just playing the game smart. Did you know. If you fight every trainer in the first Pokemon games. You'll become OP regardless.

I could just avoid most enemies. Keep finding the shrines. I could become OP, without even finding OP weapons. Mostly: Max out stamina, max out inventory, max out health. Before I bother to even do the main quests. I prefer to abuse the games open world, to beat it. Since the game wants to abuse me, with crap weapons and stamina. Even if they attempt a balancing act. To block off certain shrines. There's a ton of them. I'd still become OP, at the starting point of the game. Yes, Patient to walk around and avoid. Than be patient, with the bad stamina and durability system.

I'm currently doing this. All because I'm sick of run, slow, run slow, run slow, break, break, break, break nonsense. This is not fun. Blocking off Lake Hylia. And requiring the hookshot, to clear the water temple. Is still my prefered way I like Zelda.

What's the challenge in having the best gear from the very start throughout the game? If explotation is your main focus of playing games, then clearly you are someone special around gamers. It's like reading the end of the book first and be done with it. The journey to reach that point doesn't seem to be interesting for you, at all.



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Peh said:                            

But how would you design a game without restricting players in what the can wear or not? You don't have level restriction like Witcher 3 for parts in your game and equipment. Even if the Witcher 3 is an open world game, you still are restricted in what you can do and at what time you can do that. Zelda Botw doesn't have such restriction at all.  You can do whatever you want in the game. And in order to keep a certain balance, certain mechanics have to be made to make it work. If you are allowed to keep the best weapon in the game from the beginning, why go on and explore the game? Being to powerful in the beginning will have no challengers at all and thus the game becomes boring as hell.

Zelda is not about finding the best gear, it's about the expierence you have with the game. And with this one, you get all the freedom you want without someone telling you, "Nope. You can't do that unless you are level blablabla". That's why they also give you the possibility to go and beat the game right after the tutorial part.

You design the open world game, to not annoy the user. They needed a stricker breathing room, with their design. They needed to find a proper balance to gating and open world. And letting you do whatever. BOTW failed this, for me. And I'd rather it be done, the past ways of progression, in Zelda. Durability is fine. Weapons shouldn't break, after 30 hits. The base crap weapons should break at 60. And so on. They needed to double the hit numbers, for me to find the durability system acceptable. I'm not having a good experiance, the way it is. I prefer needing the fire tunic to explore the fire temple, over this. It's not the worst Zelda game. But, it's not a potential best ever, anymore.

Peh said:
archer9234 said:

I'd also abuse the world areas too. Want to kill a hard enemy. Trick them into the cold area. They die from it. Or get them in the water. Or wait them out. Since they'd have to also eat the heat food. While they heal, hit them.

You are side steping my point. They way the Zelda locked out the worlds in the past. Not to mention Zelda 1 having no breaking. Is still better than this system. Because I'll actually bother to go to extra areas. And not care if I get junk for it.

A point. But something I don't like. And really isn't better than the normal restrict areas, till later approach. Plus, you'd wouldn't know what's strong or not, when you first started the game. It also has a not caring affect. Since I'm getting mad at the annoyances. I'm not grabing a lot of weapons. Not caring that much to fight a harder enemy. So I wouldn't get getting a OP weapon. Unless just grab, by happen stance. It's still easier to avoid, and just do the temple.

The game is very simliar to Pokemon. If you have the patience. You can abuse the open world. I've done this. I've started the game. And stayed in the same starting area. I leveled my one Pokemon, to level 36. So I had its final form. I blew through the entire game. That's just playing the game smart. Did you know. If you fight every trainer in the first Pokemon games. You'll become OP regardless.

I could just avoid most enemies. Keep finding the shrines. I could become OP, without even finding OP weapons. Mostly: Max out stamina, max out inventory, max out health. Before I bother to even do the main quests. I prefer to abuse the games open world, to beat it. Since the game wants to abuse me, with crap weapons and stamina. Even if they attempt a balancing act. To block off certain shrines. There's a ton of them. I'd still become OP, at the starting point of the game. Yes, Patient to walk around and avoid. Than be patient, with the bad stamina and durability system.

I'm currently doing this. All because I'm sick of run, slow, run slow, run slow, break, break, break, break nonsense. This is not fun. Blocking off Lake Hylia. And requiring the hookshot, to clear the water temple. Is still my prefered way I like Zelda.

What's the challenge in having the best gear from the very start throughout the game? If explotation is your main focus of playing games, then clearly you are someone special around gamers. It's like reading the end of the book first and be done with it. The journey to reach that point doesn't seem to be interesting for you, at all.

You are missing my point. I rather have the world GATED OFF. Meaning none of the weapons, that are strong are avaible. Over the bad durability system. IE: I want the old way of Zelda games, did things. Because, this way is too annoying. I do not like this mechanic, of the game. That is all. Hell, I'll take the OP weapons amgically vanishing. If you went into weaker territory. It's not about reading the end of the book. I don't want to best gear. I want to be able to use the gear longer. And if that requires the game to be gated off, a little more. I'd want that. Beating Gannon at the start could easily be acomplished, with New Game Plus. For speed runners.

I won't be surpised. When Nintendo remasters BOTW. The first thing they'll do, after fixing the FPS. Is rework the Stamina and Durability systems. Just like how Nintendo will change Fi. If they remaster Skyward Sword. These areas are the most complained about. In their respective games. You can love this system. But, It's not perfect. Just because someone lit the match. Doesn't mean, the fuel wasn't in the room.

I can name a few games that limit. And I have no issue. A big is Resident Evil. I love 0-3. The tank controls and locked off camera angle. Plus, the limited saving system was fine. You had to manage you stuff. In a simliar way to BOTW. I didn't find this annoying. When RE4 came out. I still liked it. I hated that you could save unlimited. But, the core game was there. Than RE5 and 6 happened. BOTW is Zelda's RE4. It's different But, certain elements I hate. I hope the next game merges Zelda 1-TP and BOTW more evenly. And doesn't pull an RE5.



Peh said:

I think he makes really good points regarding breakable weapons.

For instance... .in an open free world you can go everywhere and even to places with difficult enemies. From there you could grab a really strong weapon and go back to the easier accessable parts of the game and just run through it. Thus having breakable weapons adjust and balance the difficulty level of the game and will still make it a challenge.

I don't get the OP argument, the game levels the enemies so even with the high level weapons I'm only OP against the random wanderers while enemies in camps still 1 hit kill me and take many hits to kill. Is it so bad you can knock down skeletons and slimes in 1 hit after you get a good weapon? Plus those leveled up enemies drop the good stuff anyway.

After 80 hours I'm finally in Kariko village to start the main quest. Last night I explored that starter zone with my high level weapons and it was no cakewalk at all. Especially not since the Yiga clan kept popping in randomly over and over, including some dude with a 1 hit kill windcarver and instant kill auto homing magic spell that you can only sprint away from. And camps are populated with the white Bokoblins with royal broadswords.

The only thing the breakable weapons achieve is less incentive to take on enemies that don't drop weapons like the guardians above the village. And less incentive to clean up the riff raff as that only wears down your weapons. They simply break too fast. Last night I was using a 54 dmg 2 hander with durability up+, it lasted for over an hour (mainly cause it could take out multiple riff raff enemies in 1 well placed hit), that was perfect. Much better than breaking every 2 minutes.



Peh said:

Obviously, no you don't know where the good and best weapon are if you play for the first time. But, that's also not the point. The point is, that you give the players actually not restrictions. So, if a player stumples by accident over a really powerful weapon and he can keep it for the rest of the game, than you created an exploit and all the other weapons loose their purpose and the game also looses parts of its challenge itself. After the tutorial level, you can just go to Hyrule castle and get all the good stuff. It's just lying around or are in treasures. You just have to avoid enemy encounters when doing so. You can see this being done in speedruns.

But there's where the balance thing comes into play: it's the developer's responsability to prevent these exploits. Let's go back to Oblivion. Oblivion puts you no restriction whatsoever. You find a weapon, you can use that weapon. It still cleverly hiddens all the best inventory in several places and quests (outside Oblivion orbs, which they only unlock after a certain point in the main quest), and to actually get "game-breaking" inventory requires knowledge of what you're doing. There's little chance you're going to run into one of these dungeons, and be capable of overcome it to claim the treasure within it. Outside specific story-related places, you can go wherever you want in Oblivion too. So you could aim for these places and try to get the good gear. It's still a monumental task that no player will know about, and by the time you naturally find it you'll have progressed enough to become it an integral part of the experience, not an exploit.

Speedruns are not a good measure of anything, because speedruns are based upon godly optimization and (in the case of any%) massive exploits in favor of breaking the game. Oblivion speedruns for example duplicate one specific item within the first five minutes of the game so they climb the blocked end-game door and open it, thus finishing the game. Can we take that into account when criticizing a game? I doubt saying Oblivion lasts 5 minutes because a speedrun does it is a fair criticism. Speedrunners know the best routes and exploits, but again, a speedrunner (that goes for such level of optimization) is someone who has beaten the game plenty of times and knows all the secrets within it. There's no "lessening the experience" or "accidental exploit" there. It's just a crazy string of optimization over layers of experience. They can't account for any of what this video is saying.

 

Peh said:

The dungeons are all the same level, because all the necessary equipment you need to solve them are there from the tutorial part of the game. I havn't tried it but I guess you can use your bombs to kill nearly every enemy in the game. The better weapons makes the enemies just a bit easier to kill, nothing more. So like mentioned in the video, weapons are just consumable, like ammunition for weapons. There are not a necessity, they just make your journey easier and in order for you not to exploit that, every weapon becomes breakable.

Dungeons being the same level is almost as the same as what he says about Skyrim: the world balances to fit the player skill. In Breath of the Wild, there's that standard skill akin to all dungeons because then there's not some sort of progression the game demands for the player in order to tackle any of them. It's not a bad mechanic, mind you, but this doesn't do anything for the weapon system, at all. Weapons being consumables lose the charm of acquiring weapons; it might not be the point of the game, but it sure can be seen as a complain; and goes against what the dude in the video says about the "charm of finding enemy weapons over and over". Because it's not charm, it's the way the game "forces" you to proceed. Like I said, it's not boring, but not charm either.

Peh said:

But how would you design a game without restricting players in what the can wear or not? You don't have level restriction like Witcher 3 for parts in your game and equipment. Even if the Witcher 3 is an open world game, you still are restricted in what you can do and at what time you can do that. Zelda Botw doesn't have such restriction at all.  You can do whatever you want in the game. And in order to keep a certain balance, certain mechanics have to be made to make it work. If you are allowed to keep the best weapon in the game from the beginning, why go on and explore the game? Being to powerful in the beginning will have no challengers at all and thus the game becomes boring as hell.

I redirect yourself to Oblivion, again. You're never restricted in Oblivion, aside from some progression in the main quest. Let me tell you, there's no way you can become game-breaking powerful in Oblivion either unless you know what you're doing. Which in essence the game can't become boring, because it means you liked it so much you're replaying it and exploiting it in your favor for the thrills of beating it again as far as you can or whatever other reason.

 

Peh said:

I am not saying that every game should absorb this mechanic. It's about what you want to achieve in your game. Diablo is about getting the best gear available and throwing the old ones away. But it also got different difficulty settings to make it challenging. Those doesn't exist in Zelda. And Diablo is also not an open world game without restrictions. It's similar for Oblivion. You have a level system, so better gear is only available with a better level to avoid explotation. But Zelda doesn't have a level system. It never had with the exception of Zelda 2. They just wanted to get rid of the linearity in the game and go back to where it all started with Zelda for the NES.

Oblivion doesn't have level-requirements despite having levels within the game. It's what I'm saying all along: Oblivion is a game that entices looting with some rewarding equipment that doesn't break, but also doesn't impose any limitation on the player to use these (outside specific magic items that worn out and you need Soul Gems to refill them again). Finding them is the challenge, and beating specific quests or dungeons to obtain them isn't an easy task, nor the player knows about it when you start.

 

Peh said:

Zelda is not about finding the best gear, it's about the expierence you have with the game. And with this one, you get all the freedom you want without someone telling you, "Nope. You can't do that unless you are level blablabla". That's why they also give you the possibility to go and beat the game right after the tutorial part.

So does Oblivion, outside the main quest, which also encourages the player to make their own way into several quests, such as when you're tasked to bring a daedric item to a character but it's up to you to find what daedric item in the whole world.

My point with this is not bashing Zelda for what Oblivion or other games have done, mind you. All these games are different in nature, so it's only reasonable that they also play different in praxis, and it's great that Zelda tried to aim for something different. I can't just agree with any of the points made in the video, because there are several examples of games that don't fall on the generalizations the OP makes and manage to be enjoyable throughout; likewise, justifying the weapon-break mechanic by saying that what entices the player to keep through most of the world is finding more weapons that will break so that you'll find more weapons that break is dumb as well; especially when even yourself are pointing out that the game isn't about finding the best gear. Weapon becomes secondary, an expression of the combat system but not an integral part of the world-building or character progression, and thus, weapons get relegated to a second plane. They don't have flavor, they don't have charm. They're nothing but a breakable tool you employ in combat; and nothing about fetching these from fallen enemies become interesting after you've done it the initial 50 times or so. It's like Dead Rising, where you can find plenty of weapons that break after some hits. You never really get attached to any because weapons come and go like the wind.

 



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Peh said:
vivster said:

As I heard you can do this already with the Shield. Better game design would be to have restrictions what weapons can be equipped, like the yalready do with the mastersword. It worked just fine in all other Zelda games with a host of different tools to use and the stronger swords and armor behind dungeons or quests. Making the weapons breakable was an unwanted fix they implemented to mitigate an unwanted enemy design.

Justifying terrible game design as mitigations to other terrible game design decisions doesn't really work that well.

Everything I'm reading are just tries to somehow find reason in the changes that were made instead of asking why those changes were necessary in the first place.

The video is at least 10 minutes long. You posted 7 minutes after I did my post. So you probably needed 2-3 minutes to post which could make you hit the reply button after 4-5 minutes after me posting the video. And also adding the time of actually finding this post and checking what's new on this site.

So, I conclude that you simply didn't watched the video.

Better game design? The lifted all the restriction to the world so you could actually go anywhere and kill anyone and equip their weapons. A restriction like that would restrict the freedom in this game.

Just watch the video plz. It also addresses your issue.

Well go ahead and pick up the master sword right from the get-go then.



The main thing that baffles me here is why is it so hard the accept the fact that some people simply don't find the weapon durability in Breath of the Wild, or any other game for that matter, to be fun? The endless argument over the system's merits is pointless, when it ultimately comes down to everyone's personal enjoyment of a game and the system's found within.

What people like about games varies wildly from person to person, and just because one person likes the weapon durability system, or the stamina system, or whatever else, doesn't mean that everyone is going to. It also makes neither opinion any less valid.



Peh said:
vivster said:

As I heard you can do this already with the Shield. Better game design would be to have restrictions what weapons can be equipped, like the yalready do with the mastersword. It worked just fine in all other Zelda games with a host of different tools to use and the stronger swords and armor behind dungeons or quests. Making the weapons breakable was an unwanted fix they implemented to mitigate an unwanted enemy design.

Justifying terrible game design as mitigations to other terrible game design decisions doesn't really work that well.

Everything I'm reading are just tries to somehow find reason in the changes that were made instead of asking why those changes were necessary in the first place.

The video is at least 10 minutes long. You posted 7 minutes after I did my post. So you probably needed 2-3 minutes to post which could make you hit the reply button after 4-5 minutes after me posting the video. And also adding the time of actually finding this post and checking what's new on this site.

So, I conclude that you simply didn't watched the video.

Better game design? The lifted all the restriction to the world so you could actually go anywhere and kill anyone and equip their weapons. A restriction like that would restrict the freedom in this game.

Just watch the video plz. It also addresses your issue.

Of course Vivster didn't watch the video before commenting on it.  This is the same person who thinks not being able to swim or climb sheer rock faces indefinitely without getting tired, and rain making it difficult to free climb a mountain are design flaws:

vivster 1 day ago -  "I don't think it's fair to call it the biggest issue when it's just part of very many little annoyances. Give props to the stamina meter, slippery rain and shitty framerate."



vivster said:

As I heard you can do this already with the Shield. Better game design would be to have restrictions what weapons can be equipped, like the yalready do with the mastersword. It worked just fine in all other Zelda games with a host of different tools to use and the stronger swords and armor behind dungeons or quests. Making the weapons breakable was an unwanted fix they implemented to mitigate an unwanted enemy design.

Justifying terrible game design as mitigations to other terrible game design decisions doesn't really work that well.

Everything I'm reading are just tries to somehow find reason in the changes that were made instead of asking why those changes were necessary in the first place.

Because nobody ever complained about gear that can't be used, because 'Your level is not high enough'. LOL.



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Darashiva said:
The main thing that baffles me here is why is it so hard the accept the fact that some people simply don't find the weapon durability in Breath of the Wild, or any other game for that matter, to be fun? The endless argument over the system's merits is pointless, when it ultimately comes down to everyone's personal enjoyment of a game and the system's found within.

What people like about games varies wildly from person to person, and just because one person likes the weapon durability system, or the stamina system, or whatever else, doesn't mean that everyone is going to. It also makes neither opinion any less valid.

Yes, exactly. I can live with the weapon durability in BotW, it does not annoy me but I also think it does not make the game better. Some think it makes the game better, some think it makes it worse. I can see all these opinions. But why do I have to defend my opinion? Why at all? Why people claim it is bad game design if they don't like it, then others do like it or don't mind? I'm completely fine that other people have different opinions, but they have to accept it is an opinion and my opinion is worth as much as theirs.

By the way, while I don't think the weapon durability adds anything I think the stamina bar is a very good addition. But I also like other games with stamina bars like Monster Hunter and Souls, so I'm probably some sort of freak.



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