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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Native 4K or Checkerboard "uprendered" 4k

Guitarguy said:

1920(horizontal pixels) times 1080(vertical) = 2,073,600 pixels Full HD
3840(horizontal) times 2160(vertical) = 8,294,400 pixels 4k

"4K" is double the resolution of 1080P but because of how rectangles work(length times width), it internally contains 4 times the amount of pixels. Also there's alot of confusion about the term 4K because it refers to the horizontal resolution, where 1080P referred to the vertical. Not sure why they did this, probably for marketing TVs and it being easier to say than 2160P or Ultra High Definition.


Yep, this clears things up a lot, thanks.



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Guitarguy said:

Mafioso said:

4K native is always more desirable. This method by the Pro is 'good enough' for console/couch gaming ...for now but will eventually show its limitations sooner.

The more they rely on it and the tougher the games get to run as time passes, the native pixels will have lower res, and as a result the image will get softer.

Everyone wants to think the Scorpio will be more expensive, even though it comes out in a year.

Probably will cost MS the same or close enough to produce it next year than it costs Sony to produce the Pro today. MS could very well sell it at $399-$449 and be happy with a competitive position.

I'm not writing that machine off for a weaker one. That's silly. When it hits the wild it will show its muscle, and unbiased console gamers that want the best graphics in multiplats will look its way.


I don't think this will occur. Console games generally get more advanced and better looking whilst maintaining or even increasing native resolution as developers learn the tricks and become familiar with the console. IE you won't see Call of Duty 2018 on PS4 running at 900P native and looking worse or the same as Call of duty Black Ops 3.

I was not reffering to something as drastic as 900P, but whatever resolution north of 1080p they use before their reconstruction thingamagig.  As games get more demanding and they are optimizing around 6TFlop Scorpios and 10TFLOP GPU's...that native res is going to be pared back on PS4 Pro and it will start looking softer and softer in comparison.

 

That is just the nature of the beast. 500GFlops difference caused it, surely ~2 TFLOP difference will too.



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Mafioso said:

 

 

Guitarguy said:


I don't think this will occur. Console games generally get more advanced and better looking whilst maintaining or even increasing native resolution as developers learn the tricks and become familiar with the console. IE you won't see Call of Duty 2018 on PS4 running at 900P native and looking worse or the same as Call of duty Black Ops 3.

I was not reffering to something as drastic as 900P, but whatever resolution north of 1080p they use before their reconstruction thingamagig.  As games get more demanding and they are optimizing around 6TFlop Scorpios and 10TFLOP GPU's...that native res is going to be pared back on PS4 Pro and it will start looking softer and softer in comparison.

 

That is just the nature of the beast. 500GFlops difference caused it, surely ~2 TFLOP difference will too.

I see what you mean now. You could be right but another aspect is that by the time the Scorpio rolls around, the PS4 will have sold about 70 million units whilst the Pro would probably have sold 5 million(rough estimate I know), so I think developers will focus their efforts on the console that has more users, rather than the most powerful console at the time. We saw this with the PS2 and original Xbox where the PS2 had a massive lead and got most of the focus and exclusives. But we shall see when the Scorpio rolls around. Alot can change in 14 months.



native 4k will have the edge but only very slightly and certainly not worth the extra investment. for a console to have full 4k the cost would be enourmous you would have to have a £400 gpu in there as a minimum.

ive read all the facebook hate comments towards the ps4 pro i think its mostly from pc fans. i dont think they know what they are talking about, this kit sony is bringing out is amazing value if you have a 4k tv with thier own patented upscale technology i bet the games look incredible



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Native resolution will always be better.

MS has been doing the same thing on the XBox One, this is how Quantum Break runs at 1080p, even if it's not 'really' 1080p.



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Soundwave said:
Native resolution will always be better.

MS has been doing the same thing on the XBox One, this is how Quantum Break runs at 1080p, even if it's not 'really' 1080p.

Slightly different as it takes data from previous frames and results in jagged edges whilst in motion. Rainbow Six Siege used checkerboard rendering but was done in the software, where the Pro does it within the hardware itself making it easier for developers.



First to get it out of the way, nothing can 100% accurately reconstruct missing pixel data.  However, rendering more pixels has a roughly linear cost while giving ever diminishing returns to what the eye can see.  

1080p is already really close to optimal resolution at normal view distances. Native 4k detail improvement is quite marginal without super sizing your TV-to-view-distance ratio. Rendering 2k and doing a high quality upscale is going to give you a majority of visual improvement that native 4k could. It's just a law of diminishing returns.  Rather than using 4X the power to render 4K you can use the power for other enhancements that are more easy to see.


The checkerboard solution is a good way to use half the pixel coverage with uniform scaling in both X & Y axes while minimizing softness.  Also the checkerboard pattern may be alternated each frame to get a higher temporal resolution (similar to interlacing).  It's already been done with great effect.  Nice one Sony if they have incorporated 'checker' rendering in hardware.

 



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Miguel_Zorro said:

I really don't see it - any specific spots where I should be looking?  Which one are people claiming is "better"?

The hair strains on the left, the jaggies on the right shoulder, the more detailed skin texture...

 

The more detailed textures of the skull and the stones, the jaggies on the arrow shafts, the feathers on the arrows...



Chazore said:
Slimebeast said:

I would love it on my PC GPUs in the future. I love this technique because it solves the problem of diminishing returns with true native 4K. Native 4K simply isn't worth the x3-4 times investment in hardware power versus a 1080p image at this point, when GPUs already struggle to run modern games smoothly in high settings.

The idea to generate a checkerboard 4K image with only twice the hardware power is genious. True 4K does not look "twice as good" as the checkerboard 4K of PS4 Pro.

If I had a GTX 1080 PC that allowed this, I would choose the checkerboard upscaled 4K and run it in 60fps, instead of gaming in true 4K in 30fps. Nearly everyone would.

I wouldn't due to the blur it gives off. When I look at native 4k shots I see crisp detail, especially to games of old than what the "checkerboard" form deals in.

The whole point of the technique is to minimize blur compared to other upscaling alternatives.

Ultimately we're not dealing with infinite resources, so the question isn't is "4kChecker as good as 4k", but rather "is 4k so much better than 4kChecker to warrant dropping half the frame rate or half of the game's effects?"



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Conina said:
Miguel_Zorro said:

I really don't see it - any specific spots where I should be looking?  Which one are people claiming is "better"?

The hair strains on the left, the jaggies on the right shoulder, the more detailed skin texture...

 

The more detailed textures of the skull and the stones, the jaggies on the arrow shafts, the feathers on the arrows...

Ah, you have to zoom in to see the difference?