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Forums - Movies & TV - J.J. Abrams responds to criticism over TFA being a rip-off of A New Hope

sabvre42 on 09 January 2016
kurasakiichimaru said:
thismeintiel said:
NightDragon83 said:

Yeah, SW fans who don't like Rey pretty much don't like women in general.  Must be why they also hated the "strong female" character of Leia in the original trilogy...oh wait.

Yep.  And many of the same men also hated Ripley and Sarah Connor SOO MUCH. /s

That sounds vaguely similar with ''I have black friends therefore Im no racist.". /winks

Except you are racist. You hate Fin because hes black, and cannot stand the idea of a strong black character.

But in reality its simply because you have a vagina that I'm sexist right?



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Soundwave on 09 January 2016
sabvre42 said:
NightDragon83 said:
AbbathTheGrim said:
NightDragon83 said:

The funny thing is that if we were to apply Episode VII logic to the original trilogy, then Leia, as a direct descendant of Anakin Skywalker, should have been AT LEAST as in tune with the Force as her brother was since they are the exact same age.  Yet she exhibited hardly any ability with the Force throughout the entire trilogy 1) other than to be able to sense that her brother is either in danger (end of Empire) or is OK (end of Jedi).

2) Apparently nobody explained to Han that in Rey's case, why yes, that's EXACTLY how the Force works... as a tool to quickly get our characters out of tricky situations and advance the plot when necessary.

1) Or maybe it was Luke that used his power to call on her? I must admit I always felt like Leia was sensitive to the Force, I even considered the possibility she would be a Jedi in TFA, but maybe Luke called on to her using his power?

I want to believe that Luke somehow activated (lmao) Rey's powers from afar, like next-level Force power from when he called on to Leia.

2) To be fair with Han, he never witnessed Rey doing Force-stuff to have a chance to tell her: "You aren't supposed to do any of that!" :P

I still think JJ & Co rushed Rey's character arc in the film out of both timing / convenience, and of fan service with the repeated callbacks to episodes IV-VI.

2) LOL!  But to be even more fair with Han, here was there pretty much from Day 1 of Luke's training with Obi Wan and saw him go through his early trials and tribulations in developing his understanding and command of the Force firsthand, so Han at the very least was aware that people don't usually go from not even knowing what the Force is to Force Level 10 over the course of a few days lol.

The reason people like me are angry about Rey is not because she has a vagina and is powerful. Rey isn't a mutant from Marvel/DC -- shes a force sensative human being.

Its because they changed the whole concept of the force from being a mystical power that people tap into to just being some major power people are born with. They removed the whole concept of people people needed to attain mastery and just turned Rey into a super hero (although most super heros still take time to come into their full powers).

By breaking cannon with this - they most likely just implemented power creep, and will turn this into the Jedi version of Dragon Ball Z.

Anakin and Luke already broke this tenant. 

Anakin does ridiculous things in Episode I at *age freaking nine* with zero training. Only human who can race pods at 1000 mph? With zero training? Because "Jedi reflexes". Give me a fucking break. Of course he has to destroy the Trade Federation command ship too. 

If it's revealed in Episode VIII that Rey was trained from a young age, she'll have had more training than Luke or Anakin to boot. 

She was at Luke's Academy. She probably could be his daughter even. She may have several years of training for all we know that was repressed within her. 



thismeintiel on 09 January 2016
Dr.Henry_Killinger said:
thismeintiel said:

I really wish we could stop with these poorly worded responses to excuse bad writing.  And by your logic, Luke should have already had the Jedi skills, too, since he is the son of one of the most power Jedis.  Oh wait...he actually had an interesting story arc and had to train, as well as dispell his disbelief in the power of the Force. 

Both Luke and Anakin had to take years to truly master the Force, where as Rey, who has never even freaking heard of the Force, nearly masters it within a day or two of learning about it.  Yep, great writing there.  What happened is they took the lazy way out of showing training and had her learn it through girl power.  They knew white knights and feminists would defend it with the most overused excuse of the time, sexism.  Of course, objective viewers see it for the lazy writing it was, even if overall they enjoyed the film.

Lazy writing perhaps.

When watching the movie what I got out of it was that Rey was a goddamned prodigy. And unlike with Anakin, we aren't told she's a prodigy, they show it.

It was only after she mind read Kylo Ren accidentally that she realized she had the force, and used the mind trick on a whim.

To say she's mastered the force is an exaggeration, she only used it to retrieve her lightsaber and trick a stormtrooper. 

Plus neither Luke nor Anakin had the force really affect them till they were already training, while Rey was exposed to it much earlier. Both of them could've had it but nor realized beforehand, unlike Rey, so its not a stretch that she could just start using it.

 

@everyone else:

Here is Nostalgia Critic's review:

THe last few words are what I think is the most important:

CS: Wow, that actually made things a lot better.

NC: Well, yeah. Trying to make up for the sins of the past holiday special.

CS: So that's why you did so many things the other one did?

NC: Exactly! If I wanna move forward with more specials, I have to prove I can do a regular one ok. So I stick to the formula, only this time I do it a lot better.

NC: Shit this is a metaphor isn't it?

CS: Pretty much.

NC: I guess it does kinda make sense when you really think about it. After so many years of people hating the prequel, these filmmakers had a lot to prove. So they had to demonstrate that they could do something that looks and feels like Star Wars before they can move forward with anything different. Sure a lot of it is on repeat, but its done in such an entertaining and whimsical way, that its still really enjoyable. And who knows maybe the new stuff that should've gotten more attention in this film, will get attention in the next film.

CS: And besides they've done practically every plot thread the other movies have done. Theres not many left, leaving it open to new ideas in upcoming films. It's not a classic, but it doesn't need to be yet. It's the reintroduction of an old freind, whose taken a beating, and just needed to show that he's going to be ok before he accomplishes better things.

Yet, more poor excuses for lazy writing.  Sounds just like the fans of the prequels when they released.  And even though the prequels did the stupid "Anakin is basically Jedi Jesus"  they had enough sense to NOT have him master everything on his own, in the matter of a few days of finding out about the Force.  It took him years to pull off the crap Rey is doing.  Same goes for Luke. So, yes, it is a stretch you can go 0-Jedi in under 48 hours.  And she did a lot more than pull a lightsaber and trick a stormtrooper.  She stopped a trained Jedi from reading her thoughts, while seeing into his.  She did a mind trick, something Luke could only do til movie 3 in the OG trilogy.  She used it to defeat a trained Jedi/Sith in a lightsaber battle.  And that said lightsaber was not just laying there, a trained Jedi/Sith was trying to pull it towards him at the time.

The true sad thing is that no one would be defending this poor writing if it was a man.  They would have expected more.  And they have been given more in the past.  But because it wasn't, we have to have those that sympatize with the modern feminist movement defending because of... uh...sexism. 

And don't post NC like he's the end all be all on opinions.  His is also a poor excuse.  You can do something different AND it be good.  Many movies have proven this before.  With that thinking Empire and Jedi should have been exactly like Hope, with slight changes, and would have been exceptable.  Many people have even given suggestions for what they could have done to this movie to make it different, but not seem like a paint by numbers, and quite a few of them have been very good.  Sadly, Hollywood likes to keep playing it safe and/or played out, and people keep making excuses for them.  Yet, some of those same people complain about remakes.  Go figure.

 





 

Soundwave on 09 January 2016
thismeintiel said:
Dr.Henry_Killinger said:
thismeintiel said:

I really wish we could stop with these poorly worded responses to excuse bad writing.  And by your logic, Luke should have already had the Jedi skills, too, since he is the son of one of the most power Jedis.  Oh wait...he actually had an interesting story arc and had to train, as well as dispell his disbelief in the power of the Force. 

Both Luke and Anakin had to take years to truly master the Force, where as Rey, who has never even freaking heard of the Force, nearly masters it within a day or two of learning about it.  Yep, great writing there.  What happened is they took the lazy way out of showing training and had her learn it through girl power.  They knew white knights and feminists would defend it with the most overused excuse of the time, sexism.  Of course, objective viewers see it for the lazy writing it was, even if overall they enjoyed the film.

Lazy writing perhaps.

When watching the movie what I got out of it was that Rey was a goddamned prodigy. And unlike with Anakin, we aren't told she's a prodigy, they show it.

It was only after she mind read Kylo Ren accidentally that she realized she had the force, and used the mind trick on a whim.

To say she's mastered the force is an exaggeration, she only used it to retrieve her lightsaber and trick a stormtrooper. 

Plus neither Luke nor Anakin had the force really affect them till they were already training, while Rey was exposed to it much earlier. Both of them could've had it but nor realized beforehand, unlike Rey, so its not a stretch that she could just start using it.

 

@everyone else:

Here is Nostalgia Critic's review:

THe last few words are what I think is the most important:

CS: Wow, that actually made things a lot better.

NC: Well, yeah. Trying to make up for the sins of the past holiday special.

CS: So that's why you did so many things the other one did?

NC: Exactly! If I wanna move forward with more specials, I have to prove I can do a regular one ok. So I stick to the formula, only this time I do it a lot better.

NC: Shit this is a metaphor isn't it?

CS: Pretty much.

NC: I guess it does kinda make sense when you really think about it. After so many years of people hating the prequel, these filmmakers had a lot to prove. So they had to demonstrate that they could do something that looks and feels like Star Wars before they can move forward with anything different. Sure a lot of it is on repeat, but its done in such an entertaining and whimsical way, that its still really enjoyable. And who knows maybe the new stuff that should've gotten more attention in this film, will get attention in the next film.

CS: And besides they've done practically every plot thread the other movies have done. Theres not many left, leaving it open to new ideas in upcoming films. It's not a classic, but it doesn't need to be yet. It's the reintroduction of an old freind, whose taken a beating, and just needed to show that he's going to be ok before he accomplishes better things.

Yet, more poor excuses for lazy writing.  Sounds just like the fans of the prequels when they released.  And even though the prequels did the stupid "Anakin is basically Jedi Jesus"  they had enough sense to NOT have him master everything on his own, in the matter of a few days of finding out about the Force.  It took him years to pull off the crap Rey is doing.  Same goes for Luke. So, yes, it is a stretch you can go 0-Jedi in under 48 hours.  And she did a lot more than pull a lightsaber and trick a stormtrooper.  She stopped a trained Jedi from reading her thoughts, while seeing into his.  She did a mind trick, something Luke could only do til movie 3 in the OG trilogy.  She used it to defeat a trained Jedi/Sith in a lightsaber battle.  And that said lightsaber was not just laying there, a trained Jedi/Sith was trying to pull it towards him at the time.

The true sad thing is that no one would be defending this poor writing if it was a man.  They would have expected more.  And they have been given more in the past.  But because it wasn't, we have to have those that sympatize with the modern feminist movement defending because of... uh...sexism. 

And don't post NC like he's the end all be all on opinions.  His is also a poor excuse.  You can do something different AND it be good.  Many movies have proven this before.  With that thinking Empire and Jedi should have been exactly like Hope, with slight changes, and would have been exceptable.  Many people have even given suggestions for what they could have done to this movie to make it different, but not seem like a paint by numbers, and quite a few of them have been very good.  Sadly, Hollywood likes to keep playing it safe and/or played out, and people keep making excuses for them.  Yet, some of those same people complain about remakes.  Go figure.

 

 

Maybe they could have done something original if the prequels didn't fuck the franchise and alienate a large part of the audience. And there would be no "yeah but you gotta watch the next one to see Darth Vader!" hook that saved Ep.III either. 

Star Wars was fizzling out after the prequels ... the Clone Wars animated movie *bombed* and the Phantom Menace 3D re-release was a dud (compare to how enthusiastically A New Hope was re-released to big box office in 1997). 

The franchise was in trouble and declining. Disney is going to make 50 different Star Wars movies anyway, what's wrong with using ONE to re-center the damn franchise and take it back to its roots? The approach they took was smart. 



sabvre42 on 09 January 2016
Soundwave said:
sabvre42 said:
NightDragon83 said:
AbbathTheGrim said:
NightDragon83 said:

The funny thing is that if we were to apply Episode VII logic to the original trilogy, then Leia, as a direct descendant of Anakin Skywalker, should have been AT LEAST as in tune with the Force as her brother was since they are the exact same age.  Yet she exhibited hardly any ability with the Force throughout the entire trilogy 1) other than to be able to sense that her brother is either in danger (end of Empire) or is OK (end of Jedi).

2) Apparently nobody explained to Han that in Rey's case, why yes, that's EXACTLY how the Force works... as a tool to quickly get our characters out of tricky situations and advance the plot when necessary.

1) Or maybe it was Luke that used his power to call on her? I must admit I always felt like Leia was sensitive to the Force, I even considered the possibility she would be a Jedi in TFA, but maybe Luke called on to her using his power?

I want to believe that Luke somehow activated (lmao) Rey's powers from afar, like next-level Force power from when he called on to Leia.

2) To be fair with Han, he never witnessed Rey doing Force-stuff to have a chance to tell her: "You aren't supposed to do any of that!" :P

I still think JJ & Co rushed Rey's character arc in the film out of both timing / convenience, and of fan service with the repeated callbacks to episodes IV-VI.

2) LOL!  But to be even more fair with Han, here was there pretty much from Day 1 of Luke's training with Obi Wan and saw him go through his early trials and tribulations in developing his understanding and command of the Force firsthand, so Han at the very least was aware that people don't usually go from not even knowing what the Force is to Force Level 10 over the course of a few days lol.

The reason people like me are angry about Rey is not because she has a vagina and is powerful. Rey isn't a mutant from Marvel/DC -- shes a force sensative human being.

Its because they changed the whole concept of the force from being a mystical power that people tap into to just being some major power people are born with. They removed the whole concept of people people needed to attain mastery and just turned Rey into a super hero (although most super heros still take time to come into their full powers).

By breaking cannon with this - they most likely just implemented power creep, and will turn this into the Jedi version of Dragon Ball Z.

Anakin and Luke already broke this tenant. 

Anakin does ridiculous things in Episode I at *age freaking nine* with zero training. Only human who can race pods at 1000 mph? With zero training? Because "Jedi reflexes". Give me a fucking break. Of course he has to destroy the Trade Federation command ship too. 

If it's revealed in Episode VIII that Rey was trained from a young age, she'll have had more training than Luke or Anakin to boot. 

She was at Luke's Academy. She probably could be his daughter even. She may have several years of training for all we know that was repressed within her. 

According to cannon - Anakin has double the natural affinity for the force that other jedi masters such as Obi-Won and Qui-Gon have, and about 65% more affinity than Yoda. 

However, anakin still only has the supernatural reflexes that both Luke and Rey demonstrate at the beginning of their movies. Anakin is unable to to use any actual channeled force powers until his training. Luke is unable until hes hanging upside in the snow monster cave ... and all he does there is call the lightsaber.

Rey was abandoned on her planet around 4-6 years of age. Meaning IF she had been trained it was before she was even Anakin's age in eipisode #1.

Also in terms of genetics, Anakin is a force conception. Luke and Leia are half Anakin, and even if Rey is Luke's daughter shes still only 1/4 Anakin (all other jedis were dead at that time ... so the mother clearly wasn't force sensative). 





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thismeintiel on 09 January 2016
NightDragon83 said:
thismeintiel said:
NightDragon83 said:

Yeah, SW fans who don't like Rey pretty much don't like women in general.  Must be why they also hated the "strong female" character of Leia in the original trilogy...oh wait.

Yep.  And many of the same men also hated Ripley and Sarah Connor SOO MUCH. /s

OMG I know rite?!?!  Can't stand either of those movie franchises!

And to this day I haven't even been able to pick up a Metroid game after I found out that Samus was a chick wayyyy back in grade school.

Female bounty hunter my ass!

Completely forgot about Metroid.  Not sure how, though, as I hate women with a passion (including my wife.)  Yea, as soon as I saw her out of her suit at the end of the OG Metroid, I took the game out and smashed it with a hammer.  And I only played, beat, and enjoyed Super Metroid by accident, I swear.  I was hoping they were going to give her a penis at the end.

And just because I beat Super Mario 2 with the princess doesn't mean a damn thing.  I just wanted her to suffer through the game's hardships.  You know, cause she has a vagina.



 

sabvre42 on 09 January 2016
Soundwave said:

Maybe they could have done something original if the prequels didn't fuck the franchise and alienate a large part of the audience. And there would be no "yeah but you gotta watch the next one to see Darth Vader!" hook that saved Ep.III either. 

Star Wars was fizzling out after the prequels ... the Clone Wars animated movie *bombed* and the Phantom Menace 3D re-release was a dud (compare to how enthusiastically A New Hope was re-released to big box office in 1997). 

The franchise was in trouble and declining. Disney is going to make 50 different Star Wars movies anyway, what's wrong with using ONE to re-center the damn franchise and take it back to its roots? The approach they took was smart. 

 

Because they pulled down their pants and took a shit on cannon. The cannon that hardcore fans have been reading, and playing for years.



Soundwave on 09 January 2016
sabvre42 said:
Soundwave said:

Maybe they could have done something original if the prequels didn't fuck the franchise and alienate a large part of the audience. And there would be no "yeah but you gotta watch the next one to see Darth Vader!" hook that saved Ep.III either. 

Star Wars was fizzling out after the prequels ... the Clone Wars animated movie *bombed* and the Phantom Menace 3D re-release was a dud (compare to how enthusiastically A New Hope was re-released to big box office in 1997). 

The franchise was in trouble and declining. Disney is going to make 50 different Star Wars movies anyway, what's wrong with using ONE to re-center the damn franchise and take it back to its roots? The approach they took was smart. 

 

Because they pulled down their pants and took a shit on cannon. The cannon that hardcore fans have been reading, and playing for years.

 


Puh-leaze. The canon has 1000 different hilariously stupid things in it and was already throw in the toilet after Lucas wiped his ass with it with the prequels. 

It was *obvious* he did not have the full story plotted out and just a very vague rough back story. 

There is nothing in the movie that's not canon anyway if it does turn out Rey had some training as a child. 

The fanboys are idiots in some ways anyway ... the "Force" is a mystical concept, it's not a goddamn video game power where everything is segmented into things like "Jedi Mind Trick takes XYZ hours to learn", "Jedi Force Push is level 2 Jedi power" ... this is like nerdy people who get all excited by martial arts but think ability is tied to their belt color ("ooh a black belt will always beat a orange belt! The chart says so!"). Star Wars is not a video game or a nerdy board game RPG and never was. 



kurasakiichimaru on 09 January 2016
sabvre42 said:
NightDragon83 said:
AbbathTheGrim said:
NightDragon83 said:

The funny thing is that if we were to apply Episode VII logic to the original trilogy, then Leia, as a direct descendant of Anakin Skywalker, should have been AT LEAST as in tune with the Force as her brother was since they are the exact same age.  Yet she exhibited hardly any ability with the Force throughout the entire trilogy 1) other than to be able to sense that her brother is either in danger (end of Empire) or is OK (end of Jedi).

2) Apparently nobody explained to Han that in Rey's case, why yes, that's EXACTLY how the Force works... as a tool to quickly get our characters out of tricky situations and advance the plot when necessary.

1) Or maybe it was Luke that used his power to call on her? I must admit I always felt like Leia was sensitive to the Force, I even considered the possibility she would be a Jedi in TFA, but maybe Luke called on to her using his power?

I want to believe that Luke somehow activated (lmao) Rey's powers from afar, like next-level Force power from when he called on to Leia.

2) To be fair with Han, he never witnessed Rey doing Force-stuff to have a chance to tell her: "You aren't supposed to do any of that!" :P

I still think JJ & Co rushed Rey's character arc in the film out of both timing / convenience, and of fan service with the repeated callbacks to episodes IV-VI.

2) LOL!  But to be even more fair with Han, here was there pretty much from Day 1 of Luke's training with Obi Wan and saw him go through his early trials and tribulations in developing his understanding and command of the Force firsthand, so Han at the very least was aware that people don't usually go from not even knowing what the Force is to Force Level 10 over the course of a few days lol.

The reason people like me are angry about Rey is not because she has a vagina and is powerful. Rey isn't a mutant from Marvel/DC -- shes a force sensative human being.

Its because they changed the whole concept of the force from being a mystical power that people tap into to just being some major power people are born with. They removed the whole concept of people people needed to attain mastery and just turned Rey into a super hero (although most super heros still take time to come into their full powers).

By breaking cannon with this - they most likely just implemented power creep, and will turn this into the Jedi version of Dragon Ball Z.


That' like being angry over someone being born beautiful because genetics. I think bothered is a much softer word that you should be looking for. It's not a good look to be angry at woman with actual power, after all.

They are aliens who knows what they really are and the force isn't real anyway so why involve science anyway in the most fictional way to probably to rip off of one of those bible stories.

It's not like the force requires you to recite incantations to produce electrical bolts anyway or master a certain hand wave to do a jedi mind trick. Or go to a school to learn spells. What's so mystic about jedi training anyway besides battling your demons and meditation. People dont need that if you are already a stable person as you are. tHat.s like going to church because you want to attain the highest level of spirituality and yet still comes back home saying and doing the same evil things you always do.



sabvre42 on 09 January 2016
Soundwave said:
sabvre42 said:

 

Because they pulled down their pants and took a shit on cannon. The cannon that hardcore fans have been reading, and playing for years.

 


Puh-leaze. The canon has 1000 different hilariously stupid things in it and was already throw in the toilet after Lucas wiped his ass with it with the prequels. 

It was *obvious* he did not have the full story plotted out and just a very vague rough back story. 

There is nothing in the movie that's not canon anyway if it does turn out Rey had some training as a child. 

The fanboys are idiots in some ways anyway ... the "Force" is a mystical concept, it's not a goddamn video game power where everything is segmented into things like "Jedi Mind Trick takes XYZ hours to learn", "Jedi Force Push is level 2 Jedi power" ... this is like nerdy people who get all excited by martial arts but think ability is tied to their belt color ("ooh a black belt will always beat a orange belt! The chart says so!"). 

Actually the force IS just that. Its essentially martial arts mastery. The user through intense training, mediation, and control learns how to channel the force to do their bidding.

They do not just hit puberty and have the ability to manipulate the universe instantly.