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Forums - Politics Discussion - How Will the Terrorist Attacks in Paris Impact the Refugee Crisis?

KungKras on 18 November 2015
outlawauron said:
Teeqoz said:

What do you mean "without the extreme right wing rising"? The extreme right wing has been rising in the west for at least the past decade, probably more.

I have no doubt that extreme right will grow over the next few years, but I don't think that's a good thing, neither for westerners nor for muslims. I think it'll lead to more conflict, and yes, I think it'll even lead to more terrorism.

Please point me to the extreme right rising, because I haven't seen a single bit of evidence of that outside of small irrelevant political parties that hold no power.

SD has about 20% of votes in Sweden. That's more than a nazi paty has had since the fourties or longer. Fucked up but true.



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outlawauron on 18 November 2015
Teeqoz said:
outlawauron said:

Please point me to the extreme right rising, because I haven't seen a single bit of evidence of that outside of small irrelevant political parties that hold no power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegida

It started in Germany, and has gotten sub-organisations across Europe. (This is the most recently). But over the last decade, yes, saying extreme right has been rising is exagerrating, but overall, the political landscape (and not just petty organisations) have gotten more and more right-turned, and in some cases those right-wing parties have some pretty extreme opinions, especially when it comes to immigration.

But I think the likes of Pegida, and its sympathisers are only contributing to legitimize the picture various Islamic terror organisations are trying to paint in their propaganda, and thus are helping them recruit more people, which is certainly a bad thing.

All that article tells me is that a few thousand pissed off Germans protested against immigration (with the largest group at 25k, shortly after the Hebdo incident which is understandable). It's pretty obvious that areas most negatively affected by the refugees are going to have movement sprout up against them. 

I would say that more right winged politics will gain popularity out of the refugee crisis, as the current left dominated landscape has set the current table.



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outlawauron on 18 November 2015
KungKras said:
outlawauron said:
Teeqoz said:

What do you mean "without the extreme right wing rising"? The extreme right wing has been rising in the west for at least the past decade, probably more.

I have no doubt that extreme right will grow over the next few years, but I don't think that's a good thing, neither for westerners nor for muslims. I think it'll lead to more conflict, and yes, I think it'll even lead to more terrorism.

Please point me to the extreme right rising, because I haven't seen a single bit of evidence of that outside of small irrelevant political parties that hold no power.

SD has about 20% of votes in Sweden. That's more than a nazi paty has had since the fourties or longer. Fucked up but true.

I'm obviously not Swedish, so I can only go on internet findings, but Wiki says they only got 12.9% of the vote in 2014. They also only have around 20,000 registered members. From what I've read, hardly seems like a honest comparison to Nazis. With only two parties on the right side of the spectrum, I have a hard time thinking it's a big deal.



"We'll toss the dice however they fall,
And snuggle the girls be they short or tall,
Then follow young Mat whenever he calls,
To dance with Jak o' the Shadows."

Check out MyAnimeList and my Game Collection. Owner of the 5 millionth post.

st0pnsw0p on 18 November 2015
Barozi said:
ISIS is a disease that can affect anyone who is open to terrorism.
Refugees aren't more vulnerable to that than locals.

People aren't concerned that the refugees will choose to join IS once they get here so much as they're concerned that they've already been recruited by IS and are using the crisis as an easy way into western countries.



Qwark on 18 November 2015
Poliwrathlord said:
hershel_layton said:
It'll let more ugly-ass xenophobic Americans throw crosses on people as they deem islam as a violent religion, but not christianity. It'll also help them create more propaganda to the situation, helping them spread their cults.

I don't care if I get banned for flaming, because this happens all the time. Americans are quick to attack islam, but when something involving christianity happens, they always lie and use propaganda.

I call BS, but who cares? Americans don't appreciate logic. They prefer their stupid opinions.


Could you give some examples on how Christianity is violent?

 

In recent historie only Breivik comes to mind which wasn't even part of an organisation.



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Barozi on 18 November 2015
outlawauron said:
Teeqoz said:
outlawauron said:

Please point me to the extreme right rising, because I haven't seen a single bit of evidence of that outside of small irrelevant political parties that hold no power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegida

It started in Germany, and has gotten sub-organisations across Europe. (This is the most recently). But over the last decade, yes, saying extreme right has been rising is exagerrating, but overall, the political landscape (and not just petty organisations) have gotten more and more right-turned, and in some cases those right-wing parties have some pretty extreme opinions, especially when it comes to immigration.

But I think the likes of Pegida, and its sympathisers are only contributing to legitimize the picture various Islamic terror organisations are trying to paint in their propaganda, and thus are helping them recruit more people, which is certainly a bad thing.

All that article tells me is that a few thousand pissed off Germans protested against immigration (with the largest group at 25k, shortly after the Hebdo incident which is understandable). It's pretty obvious that areas most negatively affected by the refugees are going to have movement sprout up against them. 

I would say that more right winged politics will gain popularity out of the refugee crisis, as the current left dominated landscape has set the current table.

Except it's the exact opposite. Eastern Germany has the lowest ratio of foreigners with only 2-3% and only a fraction of that come from countries where Islam is the main religion. The vast majority comes from Eastern Europe and East Asian states.

Pegida is just a group of ignorant and stupid people who have never seen a Muslim in their lifes and just hate them because they are different.
Basically the rednecks of Germany.



KungKras on 18 November 2015
Machina said:
 


Why do people always say this whenever I make a political or religious point they disagree with. My job on the site has nothing to do with politics or religion. My status as an Admin is utterly irrelevant.

You sound just as bad as Fox, but on the opposite end of the spectrum, so no I don't trust you. A quick google search shows immigrants account for 61% of reported rapes in Sweden, with those from the Middle East and Africa being 20 times more likely to commit rape than those born in Sweden, and those are the stats they're willing to publish. Here's a good rebuttal of the 'it's all because of better reporting' argument.


One of the worst cases occurred in 2012, when a 30-year old woman was raped by eight men in a housing project for asylum seekers, in the small town of Mariannelund. The woman was an acquaintance of a man from Afghanistan who had lived in Sweden for a number of years. He invited her to go out with him. She obliged. The Afghan man took her to a refugee housing project and left her defenseless. During the night, she was raped repeatedly by the asylum seekers and when her "friend" returned, he raped her too. The following morning she managed to call the police. Sweden's public prosecutor has called the incident "the worst crime of rape in Swedish criminal history."

In cases of gang rape, culprits and victims are most often young and in almost every case, the perpetrators are of immigrant background, mostly from Muslim countries. In an astounding number of cases, the Swedish courts have demonstrated sympathy for the rapists. Several times the courts have acquitted suspects who have claimed that the girl wanted sex with six, seven or eight men.


You'd feel comfortable going into the heart of a non-Muslim no-go area in Sweden? What about filming in one, because even this fairly benign video from someone who appears to be on your side of the spectrum says otherwise. I certainly wouldn't feel safe entering a Muslim area of the UK like Tower Hamlets. If I was a woman I'd feel even less safe about doing so.

You have a similar problem to us and you seem to perfectly illustrate it - a political class and set of organisations that simply will not acknowledge that there's even a problem for fear of being accused of being racist. But it's not a race, it's religion, and one with very violent teachings and some particularly abhorrent cultural beliefs, even amongst 'moderates'(1)(2)(3).

It's why over 1,400 children, CHILDREN, were allowed to be raped by predominantly Muslim gangs over a period of several years in just one town in the UK. The authorities turned a blind eye and allowed it to happen - and those are the kids we know about. It's not(1) an(2) isolated case(3), there are several examples in the past year from different towns and cities. You'll notice the euphemism 'Asian' is used for Muslim in most of those articles, which only furthers the confusion between race and religion that helps perpetuate the problem (and which I would find deeply offensive if I were Asian). It's such a damn controversial issue, but I shouldn't be - the protection of children and women from sexual abuse must be allowed to trump religious sensibilities.

But no. No problem whatsoever. Nothing to see here guys. Religion of peace and rainbows, etc.

I live in Gothenburg. Although not as immigrant-heavy as Malmö, there are areas with large muslim populations like Hisingen and I've went there to visit friends lots of times. Most of the violence comes from the criminal gangs, and they usually kill members from rival gangs. Sure I wouldn't walk the streets of Hisingen at night if I could avoid it but I've been there. A friend of mine was prevented from driving through at night because armoured police were doing an operation, so stuff does happen over there.

I wouldn't trust anything coming from sweden confidential (nowadays called Exponerat). You live in the UK so I'll grant you that you probably. don't know which sites are infamous in sweden but that site is particularly bad. It, along with "avpixlat" and some other sites are known neo nazi propaganda sites. They're always spewing out Anders Breivik level stuff.

https://www.bra.se/download/18.cba82f7130f475a2f1800012697/2005_17_brottslighet_bland_personer_fodda_sverige_och_utlandet.pdf
This is from BRÅ. An actual government organization that does these statistics. It has an english summary at the end. Its conclusion is that being an immigrant increases the chances of committing a crime by about 2.5. Among those crimes, violent crimes like rape are overepresented but it's nothing like the numbers you get from hate sites like avpixlat or exponerat.

Again, there is a problem with culture clashes when it comes to integration, but how are we supposed to judge people? We became tolerant toward homosexuality only about a decade ago yet now people point their finger at muslims for holding views similar to what was once mainstream in Europe. Their countries havent's had the same developments so they're obviosly gonna bring some horrific views with them. But most adapt to us, and not the other way around. Numbers back this. Islam is not the only religion with horrific holy verses. The bible is soaked in blood. The difference is that we're ahead of the curve when it comes to leaving that stuff behind. Not all muslims are the same, just like all with the christians.

The point I'm trying to get to is this. Should we at all let in people fleeing for their lives from war zones?  And should we discriminate when it comes to religions? I answer those with a no, because I think we can afford compassion. Then when we have these people here should we act like they are all criminals and push them out or should we try to integrate them? I think we should, and can integrate them. Because I believe in the power of our secular ideals, and I believe in humanity.



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Titanfalls on 18 November 2015

Hopefully is stop mass illegal immigration/refugees, its a giant FU to those that did it legally and went through the process and proved they are an asset and a law abiding human being.



Barozi on 18 November 2015
st0pnsw0p said:
Barozi said:
ISIS is a disease that can affect anyone who is open to terrorism.
Refugees aren't more vulnerable to that than locals.

People aren't concerned that the refugees will choose to join IS once they get here so much as they're concerned that they've already been recruited by IS and are using the crisis as an easy way into western countries.

So according to your logic, extreme European Muslims go to Syria or Iraq to fight for IS in their war (which they do) and in exchange, extreme Arabic Muslims make their way to Europe using the same routes that refugees need several weeks for.

Doesn't make any sense.

The terrorists are already here and they have been here even before the Islamic State started to exist.



Teeqoz on 18 November 2015
outlawauron said:
Teeqoz said:
outlawauron said:

Please point me to the extreme right rising, because I haven't seen a single bit of evidence of that outside of small irrelevant political parties that hold no power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegida

It started in Germany, and has gotten sub-organisations across Europe. (This is the most recently). But over the last decade, yes, saying extreme right has been rising is exagerrating, but overall, the political landscape (and not just petty organisations) have gotten more and more right-turned, and in some cases those right-wing parties have some pretty extreme opinions, especially when it comes to immigration.

But I think the likes of Pegida, and its sympathisers are only contributing to legitimize the picture various Islamic terror organisations are trying to paint in their propaganda, and thus are helping them recruit more people, which is certainly a bad thing.

All that article tells me is that a few thousand pissed off Germans protested against immigration (with the largest group at 25k, shortly after the Hebdo incident which is understandable). It's pretty obvious that areas most negatively affected by the refugees are going to have movement sprout up against them. 

I would say that more right winged politics will gain popularity out of the refugee crisis, as the current left dominated landscape has set the current table.


Pegida isn't just German. It started there, but it has movements throughout the rest of Europe. (Okay, strictly speaking I only know about Pegida Norway, but I'm fairly certain it has suborganisations throughout the rest of Europe as well). You could say that "a few thousand pissed of Germans" protested against immigration, but keep in mind that those are only the ones devout enough to march in a fucking protest. It's fairly obvious that the mindset is a lot more widespread than just the few thousand who have participated in actual protests.