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Forums - Gaming - Why Souls games shouldn't have an easy or normal mode

 

What do you think about the difficulty on the souls games

I like the challenge 61 69.32%
 
i hate it... 27 30.68%
 
Total:88

vivster said:

I'll open with the thing I edited in my last post which I think sums up the matter perfectly.

"Which is where your thread title fails.

You say: I don't want games to become less challenging.

Thread title and OP say: I don't want lesser skilled people to enjoy my games.

So your fear isn't that a game becomes more inclusive but that the devs fuck up the hard mode. Which is a completely different matter."

 

I think you have the wrong assumption here. No one is asking for a kiddie mode where you can't die ever. You seem to onoly know the two extremes between very hard and very easy. Believe me, even just making the health bar double as big an the potions double as effective goes a very long way. Then you could reduce the negative effects of dying. All this can be done with a push of a switch without affecting anything ingame. Yes, people will die due to mean traps and the way the game is designed. But if they're not completely brain dead they will only fall once for a trap. That's the charm of the game. I mean look at Minesweeper. It also has instant failure states that are not the players fault. Yet it's not described as a very difficult game. What makes it difficult is the timer.

 

 

Thread title and OP say: I don't want lesser skilled people to enjoy my games.
not really what i meant to say with this :/

So your fear isn't that a game becomes more inclusive but that the devs fuck up the hard mode. Which is a completely different matter.

ok i could have worded it better

and to the rest, as i said if they are able to keep the same level design (or make two level designs) to acomodate two difficulties then fine by me, as long as it doesnt affect that part of the game.



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RCTjunkie said:

How about this?

Hard mode: No hints

Normal Mode: Signs/hints that alert what is coming (Danger: Arrows ahead)

Easy Mode: Alert what is coming and hint to overcome it (Danger: Arrows ahead. Avoid Left door)

good point, that could work without changing the level design.



I remember a great time when if you played on easy, you weren't allowed to play the rest of the game past a certain point.



estebxx said:
RCTjunkie said:

How about this?

Hard mode: No hints

Normal Mode: Signs/hints that alert what is coming (Danger: Arrows ahead)

Easy Mode: Alert what is coming and hint to overcome it (Danger: Arrows ahead. Avoid Left door)

good point, that could work without changing the level design.

It doesn't even have to be an explicit hint. Maybe have dead bodies near a trap to show it's not a good idea (They might do this already, I don't know).

The point is, there's always a work-around to add very little that mean so much to more inexperienced players. And as long as those are kept optional, I think it can work.

Again, the creators seem to show lots of artistic integrity and would never compromise the difficulty for those that enjoy it that way. But at the same time, they should be rewarded with more fans, recognition, and profits by bridging the gap in an optional manner. It can be done in both a subtle but rewarding way.



estebxx said:

Thread title and OP say: I don't want lesser skilled people to enjoy my games.
not really what i meant to say with this :/

So your fear isn't that a game becomes more inclusive but that the devs fuck up the hard mode. Which is a completely different matter.

ok i could have worded it better

and to the rest, as i said if they are able to keep the same level design (or make two level designs) to acomodate two difficulties then fine by me, as long as it doesnt affect that part of the game.

Then the thread title is completely off the mark^^ Because now you're saying the opposite as long as it leaves the rest of the game intact.

I propose to you following thread: "Why I fear that the inclusion of easy modes will prompt the devs to also alter the hard mode"

See, that's why we have these useful discussions on here :)



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PRO:
There are two points that make people say that:
- They want bragging rights
- They want to preserve the dev vision of the game, from an artistic point of view (yep, i consider games a form of art, just like movies or music)

The first is somehow lame and could be answered with trophys/achievements only unlocking on hard mode
The second is pretty valid actually, though i don't know if the devs ever spoke about this

CON:
On the other hand, opitions are always a good thing and don't get on the way of who wants to have a challenging experience. This could also help it be more successful from a sales point of view.

I can point to Fire Emblem: Awakening as an example:
The casual mode, that removes perma deaths, most likely was key to the sucess of this title. The classic mode was still there for those who wanted it.

i.e: My sister never played FE and she only begun because of the casual mode, after beating the game she started over on classic, because she loved it.



RCTjunkie said:

It doesn't even have to be an explicit hint. Maybe have dead bodies near a trap to show it's not a good idea (They might do this already, I don't know).

The point is, there's always a work-around to add very little that mean so much to more inexperienced players. And as long as those are kept optional, I think it can work.

Again, the creators seem to show lots of artistic integrity and would never compromise the difficulty for those that enjoy it that way. But at the same time, they should be rewarded with more fans, recognition, and profits by bridging the gap in an optional manner. It can be done in both a subtle but rewarding way.

they actually do that, but its not very "explicit" for example the elevator with that instant kills you on the third floor has a lot of Blood on it (due to the spikes that kill you on the last floor), yet some people (including me) feel the need to "explore" and end up dead beacuse of it, (maybe a body filled with broken spikes on the elevator would be a better indicator).

i agree with youre idea (and i actually think its very good) but the hints would have to be a little bit more obvious than what they are using now.



RCTjunkie said:
estebxx said:
RCTjunkie said:

How about this?

Hard mode: No hints

Normal Mode: Signs/hints that alert what is coming (Danger: Arrows ahead)

Easy Mode: Alert what is coming and hint to overcome it (Danger: Arrows ahead. Avoid Left door)

good point, that could work without changing the level design.

It doesn't even have to be an explicit hint. Maybe have dead bodies near a trap to show it's not a good idea (They might do this already, I don't know).

The point is, there's always a work-around to add very little that mean so much to more inexperienced players. And as long as those are kept optional, I think it can work.

Again, the creators seem to show lots of artistic integrity and would never compromise the difficulty for those that enjoy it that way. But at the same time, they should be rewarded with more fans, recognition, and profits by bridging the gap in an optional manner. It can be done in both a subtle but rewarding way.

They do this already.

Players can leave messages for others on the ground.
You see multiplayer "ghosts" which are other players who have recently died in that area
And the walls and scenery and everything give hints as to what is coming.

In one area, you don't see any archers, but there are wooden rolling barricades with arrows in them along with bodies with arrows in them. Hint hint: there are probably archers in the windows of those towers that are conveniently placed along the path you're about to walk.



vivster said:

I think you have the wrong assumption here. No one is asking for a kiddie mode where you can't die ever. You seem to only know the two extremes between very hard and very easy. Believe me, even just making the health bar double as big an the potions double as effective goes a very long way. Then you could reduce the negative effects of dying. All this can be done with a push of a switch without affecting anything ingame. Yes, people will die due to mean traps and the way the game is designed. But if they're not completely brain dead they will only fall once for a trap. That's the charm of the game. I mean look at Minesweeper. It also has instant failure states that are not the players fault. Yet it's not described as a very difficult game. What makes it difficult is the timer.

I think you don't really understand here. You think about games, where the difficulty comes from the enemies. Give them less HP and let them deal less damage and they are easier. But this isn't working that easy on the souls-games. The level-design is part of the difficulty. Let's think a moment, how would you make Mario an easier game? Goombas only have half of the HP? What would that change. Let Mario jump higher? Do you think it would be the same game anymore?

Looking over the thread you have people saying from themself they are enjoying the game standing in opposition to the idea of an easy mode. People who claim they dislike souls are infavor of an easy mode. It could be of importance, that the people who like it may have played it a bit more. We can see, that an easy mode makes no difference (Goombas have only half the HP) or would change the game (Mario jumps double as high).

So, say, how would you add an easy mode to Donkey Kong, Shovel Knight or Sokoban?



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Ok, look at it another way.
I'm a chef.
I make excellent gourmet food at 60$ a plate which is perfectly seasoned.

When you receive a plate from me, should you even be allowed to add ketchup?

A lot of people would say yes. A lot of those people would rather have mcdonalds. A lot of other people would say, "let them go to mcdonalds".

 

Oh oh, even better:

I make bourbon whiskey. If the flavor is too intense for you, have yourself a wine cooler instead. I don't make wine-coolers.

EDIT: Should Mario have a hard mode?