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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Nintendo will never be "third party friendly"

RolStoppable said:
If Nintendo were to make a console then said console would immediately enter the death spiral. Thus, any suggestions that Nintendo should make a console are prepostorous.


Fixed

 

OT: I think you're right. Nintendo have proven time and time again that their bottom line is what matters, and that they mostly prefer low risk endeavours (Okay, the Wii U wasn't low risk, but they've made it so that they can profit, even from a console that's selling horribly).



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RolStoppable said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
CarcharodonKraz said:
One could also argue your opinion plays into Nintendo's strategy of weaker hardware as well. The weaker the hardware the easier it is to develop for, giving a higher chance you produce a quality product in a timely fashion. It took probably around 4-5 years for most developers to start getting the best looking/functioning games last generation from the ps360. It took Nintendo and other developers about 1 to get the most out of the wii. Now I will say I think that they swung to low on power with the wii, but I do agree, to a certain degree, on their philosophy. A lot of early games in a generation end up being "practice runs" for the system and, although they end up selling pretty well, don't stand the test of time. Years later their sequels look and play insanely better.

Stop making excuses for nintendo. They ignored third party and when they realized with the wii that Sony and Ms were making hand over first on third party they wanted  to be he cool console too. Nintendo expects third party to dumb down their games when they aren't market leader and even in the event of last gen, the wii was only slightly more powerful than the gamecube. This exactly why epic gamea head didn't even  want nintendo to use unreal 4. The wii u is nothing for them to learn and build upon with slightly above last gen tech. All they would  learn about the console was limitation when themselves, ubisoft and otherw requested 8gb of ram from as far back as 2011. All third party is doing is porting their games....not creating it for he hardware nine times out of ten. As you can see assassin's creed unity, Witcher and batman won't be on last gen tech.

S.T.A.G.E., that reasoning is incredibly stupid even by your standards. Being envious of other companies' profits can't be a valid reason when the company in question (Nintendo) made multiple times more profit than the others combined.

Additionally, if third party royalties really generated such high profits, then Sony and Microsoft wouldn't charge extra for basic functionality like online multiplayer.


I stated that because  I read it. Nintendo wished  they could've had a thriving  third party on their console like got a and a a a third party  titles to boot. Nintendo had a falling out with third party after trying to court them. Anyone with half a brain knew epic, ubisoft and some others already laid out thearly requirements they required to  run the next gen gamespecially they had in development. There is nothing stupid about what I am saying and it makes total sense. 

 

MS and Sony make a good amount of money off of third party sales just like nintendo used to some twenty years  ago. It's insane to even think about how much money Sony made with the ps2 until they screwed up with the ps3.



RolStoppable said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:

I stated that because  I read it. Nintendo wished  they could've had a thriving  third party on their console like got a and a a a third party  titles to boot. Nintendo had a falling out with third party after trying to court them. Anyone with half a brain knew epic, ubisoft and some others already laid out thearly requirements they required to  run the next gen gamespecially they had in development. There is nothing stupid about what I am saying and it makes total sense. 

 

MS and Sony make a good amount of money off of third party sales just like nintendo used to some twenty years  ago. It's insane to even think about how much money Sony made with the ps2 until they screwed up with the ps3.

I don't doubt that you read that Nintendo wanted to have AAA third party titles on their console and that's something that is definitely true. However, that's not what is in question here. The point of contention is that Nintendo did so because they were envious of Sony's and Microsoft's profits.

Sony didn't make all that much money with the PS2. In fact, it's considerably less than Nintendo did with the Wii. You are seriously overestimating the revenue that is generated by royalty fees from third party software.

If we consider $5 per non first party game, I can guess ps360 didn't get any money back when you consider R&D + the loss they took on each console. it's worse for the 360 because of the 3rl.



Rogerioandrade said:
Materia-Blade said:
Rogerioandrade said:
Curiously, third party games have been doing very very well on the 3DS... Monster Hunter, Yokai Watch, Dragon Quest, Resident Evil, Lego games, Level-5 games, Capcom games, Atlus games etc. And there was a lot of good third-party games for the Wii, notably Just Dance, Monster Hunter 3, No More Heroes, PES, Fifa, Guitar Hero etc etc etc

I don´t think that Nintendo is not "third-party friendly". After seeing so many companies showing support for the WiiU in its launch, and seeing some great games made by small developers for the WiiU, it´s clear that programming/porting games for the WiiU is not the real problem.
The problem are low sales. They don´t want to develop or port games for Nintendo´s home console because its games doesnt´sell well on it - there´s very few exceptions (Rayman Legends, Sonic All-Stars Racing, Taiko, ZombiU). They don´t consider potential sales rewarding.

In the end, it´s all about how much money they expect to get. If the expectations are very low, then better not even start work.

Wich "many" companies showed support for wii u at launch? this "3rd part don't sell on nintendo" is just a myth.


Ubisoft (Just Dance, Assassin´s Creed, Rabbits), Eletronic Arts (With Fifa, Madden), Activision (with Cod, Skylanders, Wipeout), Namco (with Tekken), Sega (Sonic All Stars Racing), Square (Dragon Quest), Warner (Batman, Scribblenauts) Tecmo(Warriors Orochi)......

of course all of them adopted a "wait and see" approach with those games, but they all showed interest. With the low sales, they just abandoned the platform

As for sales..... we all know that 3rd party games sell better on other platforms, but that doesn´t mean they actually sell bad on WiiU - they just don´t sell what companies want. Rayman Legends and Sonic All-Stars Racing sold BETTER on WiiU than on any other platform, for example, but far from what Ubisoft or Sega wanted.  ZombiU and Dragon Quest sold quite well.

You forgot Mass Effect, for EA.



SanAndreasX said:
zippy said:
SanAndreasX said:
Personally, I wish Microsoft and Sony would stop kissing the asses of third party prima donnas like EA and Ubisoft as much as they do.

This, i believe that 3rd parties are gaing too much of a foothold in the industry and Sony/ Microsoft are becoming their bitches. Look at EA, they threw a hissy fit with Nintendo over their refusal to let them control their online infrastructure. If Nintendo can get by without them, good for them.

EA has a long history of pitching bitch-fits. They tried to bully Nintendo back in the 8-bit era and failed miserably. Then they successfully bullied their way onto the Sega Genesis extracting special treatment from Sega. I remember reading about that in Game Informer some time back.

Apparently, Sega had a "kill switch" that, if they'd used it at CES, would have caused EA's unlicensed Genesis games to fail publicly. This was by EA's own admission, not Sega's. It's a pity they caved in to EA and didn't use whatever kill-switch they had. They could have chased EA away for good with that kind of embarrassment. :)

I really can't understand why EA still has yearly sport releases. They can just 
update the roster of teams, right?



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Multishanks said:

I have been seeing a lot of wishful thinking about Nintendo's next hardware being third party friendly as some like to call it.

STOP DOING THIS TO YOURSELVES. They will never be that because their business model doesn't include that.

Actually, Nintendo has always (OK, it's more accurate to say "since Iwata took over") been third-party friendly. It's the third parties that haven't been friendly. Third parties complained about how they had to compete with Nintendo's own software, so Nintendo held back some of their games to give third parties an opportunity to release their titles... third parties completely ignored the gap, and instead focused on other hardware... and then complained about Nintendo not driving sales of their hardware.

Nintendo paid third parties to make games for them in the Gamecube era. Those games then got ported to the PS2. Nintendo drove massive system sales on the Wii, and third parties pumped out shovelware onto the system while putting their real titles on other systems. Nintendo pushed third party titles heavily on 3DS, and third parties completely ignored those titles. Nintendo designed the Wii, and later the Wii U, to be developer-friendly (including both ease of development and keeping down of costs), and third parties complained about the lack of power... but third parties certainly weren't interested in developing properly for Gamecube, which was more powerful than the market leader and comparable to the Xbox. And when given an opportunity to be the only notable game released in a six month window on the Wii U, Ubisoft decided to instead delay their big game to have it release simultaneously on other systems, thereby shifting the release date to right in the middle of Nintendo's big releases.

When it comes down to it, they just pump out excuse after excuse, but the truth is that the major third parties are simply far too risk-averse to actually make the kind of effort necessary to really establish a franchise on a Nintendo system, even though once the franchise is established on the system, it'll no longer be a risky move. It's why Nintendo is being more picky about which developers to actually support. Platinum makes risky moves all the time, for instance. Indies are always big on risky moves, so Nintendo is embracing the Indie movement.

If the major third parties weren't so risk averse, they'd try actually releasing quality products on Nintendo systems in genres and styles that aren't already present, and thus establish their own market on the system. They'd spend time developing real uses for Nintendo's innovations, rather than doing things like having a hacking game on a system with a touchscreen, and using it for a map. The few times that they've actually taken such risks, those risks have paid off.

Also note that you can tell a lot about the third parties' efforts on Nintendo systems by looking at which "badly-performing" exclusive titles ended up being ported to other systems. ZombiU? Nope, despite moaning about how Wii U owners just weren't buying their masterpiece, they haven't made any efforts to move the game over to the PS4 or Xbox One.

The only thing Nintendo isn't going to do for third parties is completely design their systems around them, because Nintendo knows that doing so isn't going to be a successful move, especially when two other systems are already doing exactly that (hence why, for two generations now, people have been referring to them as "twins" - because aside from certain issues with the PS3, Sony and MS have spent a lot of time developing what amounts to nearly-identical systems).

And to be clear, the risk-aversion is present elsewhere, too - it's why third parties didn't put any real effort into Move or Kinect. It's why most AAA titles are getting more and more alike. It's why RE is now a shooter game with a horror motif rather than a horror game. It's why franchises that haven't historically brought in multi-million sales have been thrown in the bin, and why the few such franchises that have survived have been turned into games filled with microtransactions, etc. It's why popular franchises are being annualised rather than being made even better. And it's why they run massive hype campaigns in the leadup to release while trying to keep reviewers from saying bad things about their games until after launch. They don't stand by their dev teams, they don't stand by their products, and it's all about maximising profit while minimising risk. And if it continues, we can expect a crash. Nintendo's relationship with third parties is nothing more than a symptom.



XanderXT said:
SanAndreasX said:

EA has a long history of pitching bitch-fits. They tried to bully Nintendo back in the 8-bit era and failed miserably. Then they successfully bullied their way onto the Sega Genesis extracting special treatment from Sega. I remember reading about that in Game Informer some time back.

Apparently, Sega had a "kill switch" that, if they'd used it at CES, would have caused EA's unlicensed Genesis games to fail publicly. This was by EA's own admission, not Sega's. It's a pity they caved in to EA and didn't use whatever kill-switch they had. They could have chased EA away for good with that kind of embarrassment. :)

I really can't understand why EA still has yearly sport releases. They can just 
update the roster of teams, right?

It's a lot easier to squeeze out 60 bucks a head from sports fans (or pretty much any other genre fan) when your incremental update is in a shiny new box with the current season year than it is if your update is just a DLC patch file on an online storefront. That's important because Madden and FIFA exclusivity and the money they bring in are pretty much the only way EA can get away with being as extortionist as they are. If MS or Sony see millions of football fans (either gridiron or association) potentially jumping ship, they'll jump at the crack of EA's whip.



S.T.A.G.E. said:
CarcharodonKraz said:
One could also argue your opinion plays into Nintendo's strategy of weaker hardware as well. The weaker the hardware the easier it is to develop for, giving a higher chance you produce a quality product in a timely fashion. It took probably around 4-5 years for most developers to start getting the best looking/functioning games last generation from the ps360. It took Nintendo and other developers about 1 to get the most out of the wii. Now I will say I think that they swung to low on power with the wii, but I do agree, to a certain degree, on their philosophy. A lot of early games in a generation end up being "practice runs" for the system and, although they end up selling pretty well, don't stand the test of time. Years later their sequels look and play insanely better.


Stop making excuses for nintendo. They ignored third party and when they realized with the wii that Sony and Ms were making hand over first on third party they wanted  to be he cool console too. Nintendo expects third party to dumb down their games when they aren't market leader and even in the event of last gen, the wii was only slightly more powerful than the gamecube. This exactly why epic gamea head didn't even  want nintendo to use unreal 4. The wii u is nothing for them to learn and build upon with slightly above last gen tech. All they would  learn about the console was limitation when themselves, ubisoft and otherw requested 8gb of ram from as far back as 2011. All third party is doing is porting their games....not creating it for he hardware nine times out of ten. As you can see assassin's creed unity, Witcher and batman won't be on last gen tech.



not sure what excuse you think it is i'm making.  In fact, i don't believe i really expressed much of an opinion as much as an observation.  In all seriousness i was just speaking on the op. I'm guessing you found something i said disagree-able.  Kinda hope it has something to do with the "test of time" comment since you brought up assassin's creed unity.  I would find the irony in that most amusing. 

     But again, not making any kind of excuses.  I have no problem pointing out N's faults; Nintendo isn't as popular as the others, it isn't as powerful as the others, it has a weaker online system as the others, it hasn't sold well as the others and it doesn't have nearly any 3rd party support.  Nintendo  does it's own thing.  I'm fine with that.  I keep my expectations realisitic based on their last 3 consoles.  I can't totally blame them for how they roll either.  Hell nintendo could have come out with an exact clone of the ps4, price included, and it would probably still would not have the same 3rd party support or sell as well as the xbox4.  The brand has definitely been damaged in regards to what has become the gaming community and specs on their machine aren't going to magically change that. 

     That's mostly business talk though anyway.  I'm a gamer not an exec, and as a gamer i'm pretty satisfied. So far the nintendo games have been my favorite.  I think only shadows of mordor has been able to come close to the fun i've had with 3dworld, smash, bayo and kart.  Every system had a game drought their first year then started coming out with some good games.    I've bought more games this year than any year previous, i think, ever. Now i'm not saying nintendo has the end all be all product.  I'm glad i have a ps4 as well, but  I'm pretty happy with nintendo as a gamer right now and i don't see why that shouldn't be the bottom line.  There's some opinions for your itchy typing finger ;) :)

 



RolStoppable said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:

I stated that because  I read it. Nintendo wished  they could've had a thriving  third party on their console like got a and a a a third party  titles to boot. Nintendo had a falling out with third party after trying to court them. Anyone with half a brain knew epic, ubisoft and some others already laid out thearly requirements they required to  run the next gen gamespecially they had in development. There is nothing stupid about what I am saying and it makes total sense. 

 

MS and Sony make a good amount of money off of third party sales just like nintendo used to some twenty years  ago. It's insane to even think about how much money Sony made with the ps2 until they screwed up with the ps3.

I don't doubt that you read that Nintendo wanted to have AAA third party titles on their console and that's something that is definitely true. However, that's not what is in question here. The point of contention is that Nintendo did so because they were envious of Sony's and Microsoft's profits.

Sony didn't make all that much money with the PS2. In fact, it's considerably less than Nintendo did with the Wii. You are seriously overestimating the revenue that is generated by royalty fees from third party software.

Yeah...I'm sure you doubt that, which is why the PS4 and Xbox One came out and the Wii U was the most powerful console, Reggie was claiming to have the most powerful version COD on the news and the reporter remained skeptical rumors of the level of power of the newer consoles. Look it up. She wasnt swayed by him at all. 

Iwata quote from 2011 alluding regret with the lack of third party presence on the WIi and to remedy that on the 3DS:

"I now regret that we didn't tie up with someone outside the company to market the Wii. If we had done that, the fate of the Wii might have been different," said Iwata.

"Now I am aware that we should not rely too much on ourselves. You will see what I mean by this when we market the 3DS and the Wii in the future."

Iwata regrets the marketing? What? It wasnt just the marketing. It was the games provided. Everyone knows Nintendo has a decent relationship with third party on the 3DS so getting third party isn't an issue over there. Denial is a terrible thing.

Source:

Iwata regrets lack of Wii third party:

http://www.t3.com/news/iwata-regrets-lack-of-wii-third-party-support

It was around that point that Nintendo started actively courting third party, but failed to maintain relationships with my of them after revealing the relationships at E3 2012. You have the timeline....sift through it.

I don't talk about things I havent read.



about third party support the third party developers started to Abandon Nintendo after the 16 bit era and every generation since its got worse and worse.

in 32/64 bit era they blamed it on Medium
128 bit era they blamed it on the size of the medium
Wii they blamed it on power of the console
Wii U they blame it on install base

it seems 3rd party developers are just full of excuses and are just looking for a quick buck and Nintendo fans don't buy crap. A game has to be able to stand up to the same polish of EAD and Retro Studios or us Nintendo fans will treat it with the disdain it deserves.