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Forums - Movies & TV - "10 Hours of Walking In NYC As a Woman "

contestgamer on 05 November 2014
sundin13 said:
contestgamer said:
 

Sexual discrimination is just as wrong and in most cases illegal. so call it what you want to call it, either way it's totally wrong.


Its illegal for businesses and whatnot. To my knowledge their are no laws on personal discrimination as long as you keep your actions below hate crime. If you honestly claim that you treat women exactly the same way you treat men, I can only assume you are lying. When I'm around my guy friends, I'm more likely to make innapropriate jokes or talk about sports or play sports. When I'm around my girl friends, I probably wouldn't be doing most of those things. Is that discrimination? Well yeah...does that make it wrong? I don't think so.

Also, I would like to point out, that I, as a straight male, only really hit on women. Should I start hitting on men to avoid that horrible, horrible discrimination?

contestgamer said:

Extreme feminism is ridiculous, most women just want equality. We don't want to be treated like sexual objects, like sidekicks to men. You don't need the state to do that, it can be done by educating men. A lot of things about how men interact with women and other men has changed for the better without the need of state action - simply social pressure and education has brought about those changes. Same idea is behind most civil rights movements.


The problem is when feminists start attacking things like someone saying "hello" to them. That is just ridiculous. We don't need social pressure to make us more impersonal... We don't need to protect women to this extent (and who exactly is here to protect the men from people who say "hello" to them on the street? Discrimination I say!)

I think most people are fine with equality (to a point), but some of these complaints are just ridiculous, and sensationalistly labeling it as "harassment" doesn't help your argument, it just makes people think you are being ridiculous.


What do you mean by "equality is fine (to a point)"?  When you say "people" you seem to be saying "men". Most women I've talked to that have seen that video lamented similar things happening to them on a regular basis and absolutely hate it. Your issue seems to be the word "harassment", however it doesn't seem like you really understand how much these types of social interactions actually effect women. Usually I ignore it and walk on by, but I've seen women flip out or cry after these types of interactions. A "hi" might seem harmless, but in a big city where everyone is anonymous (I'm from NY btw), the intemidation factor is very real, because we know that most men that say "hi"randomly on the streets in a city like NY aren't just trying to be "nice". They're typically doing it out of sexual motivation and a good chunk of guys don't leave it at that. If every guy in the world just said hi and a significant chunk of them didn't escalate it further in to butt grabbing, groping, following and threats then this wouldn't be an issue - but in my experience many if not most of the guys that have done that to me or my friends in the past have started with something inoccous on the street such as a "hi". If guys don't want to be dumped in the same category as them then as a rule of thumb don't say hi to a woman on the street unless she gave you eye contact first. Is that so hard?



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Nem on 05 November 2014
contestgamer said:
Nem said:

It should say as an "atractive woman in tight clothes". I'm pretty sure not every women gets that treatment and probably wish they would.

I think some of them were creeps, but most were just saying hi. That is not harassement. Its beeing nice. Even if it has a sexual motivation, doesnt mean you can't be nice back.

Imagine if she was in a muslim country. The comments would be something like "whore, harlot, stone her to death". This just reiterates my opinion that women do not want equal treatment, they want special treatment. This is quite honestly ridiculous. I wouldnt mind if women went around and said nice things when i walk in the street. I most certainly wouldnt be offended and would probably be nice back.


That's the male perspective. Most of my girlefriends do get cat called and more, even ones that would be considered fairly average appearance wise. It happens to most women. Most women I know hate it, because they feel that it sexualizes them (imo rightly so). It also makes it much more difficult for women to date men or even have conversations with them, because our experiences inform us that most things men do are motivated by sex somewhere down the line and not genuine interest. Obviously this isn't always true, but even some of the more inoccous experiences such as the ones in the video do inform us negatively about men which is a lose-lose for everyone, men and women alike.


What you are saying is that they dont want equal treatment, they want special treatment. I dont see how that is reasonable.  I think the real problem here is in themselves. They feel vulnerable by it. While men choose to be empowered by it. Is the only way to satisfy women, to completely shut off men when the problem is within themselves? Again i dont see how that is a reasonable demand.

I am all for equality and i support it, but this isnt equality, its special treatment, and that i cannot agree with. And lets not forget that this was an atractive woman in tight clothes walking on a ghetto area. You can't tell me this wasnt premeditated.

Give money to this? When there are children dying of hunger, when there are serious illnesses plaguing many people. I personally have a disease that cant be cured. It doesnt stop me from living, but it sure impairs me more than this does to women. No, this is not righteous in any way. Its quite arrogant actually.



o_O.Q on 05 November 2014
contestgamer said:


There is no such thing as a "right on the basis of being human". Those are simply social constructs. There isn't anything inherent about humans that procludes any of us from living in subjugation or in anarchy. All rights are man made. Feeling safe isn't a right, but neither is anything else regardless of what society tells you. We create rights, because social morality and norms guide us to. By the same token, not wanting to be sexualized, catcalled, paid less, discriminated against in male dominated jobs and educational paths, and more aren't rights, they're simply social norms that most women push for. Not by legislation (I'm counting all the hardcore feminists who try) but by changing social norms through social pressure and education.  I have met some of the crazy feminists who flip out when a guy holds the door open for them and that's nuts. Most women aren't looking for a reason to flip out over everything. We're just looking to morph social norms of gender behavior towards something more equitable. 


"There is no such thing as a "right on the basis of being human". Those are simply social constructs. There isn't anything inherent about humans that procludes any of us from living in subjugation or in anarchy. All rights are man made. "

 

true but i figured it would be obvious that i was speaking with regards to how society works

living in society grants certain rights to all who live within them 

blacks, for example, were denied these rights because they were seen as property

anyway the right to feeling safe does not exist if you want it to you have to push for the sacrifice of freedom to the state

and that is what i've been saying all this time

why do you think the right to bear arms exists? it exists to grant each individual the ability to defend themselves

and that's why there is so much anti-gun propaganda, to take away the freedom to defend yourself and instead force people to rely on the state for protection

 

"by changing social norms through social pressure and education."

 

look i'm done arguing on this point if you want to believe that through education we will reach a condition where women can always feel safe feel free to believe so

 

"By the same token, not wanting to be sexualized, catcalled, paid less, discriminated against in male dominated jobs and educational paths"

 

the issues with pay, discrimination in work and education were noble and great pursuits and have succeeded 

for example, the pay gap is a myth : http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-gap_b_2073804.html

with regards to sexualisation and catcalling i also want both to stop 

but what type of sexualisation though? are you talking about women sexualising themselves for attention?

 

"I have met some of the crazy feminists who flip out when a guy holds the door open for them"

 

they have the right to do so the man should have been minding his own business

 

"We're just looking to morph social norms of gender behavior towards something more equitable. "

 

nonsense if that were the case there wouldn't be calls by feminists to grant women extra protection 

also there would be calls for the gender divisions in sports to be taken out

for women to have equal representation in the hard dirty labour that is conducive to constructing everything you see around you that generally has to be done by men

there would be no feminist opposition to having women fight on the frontlines with men etc

when these issues are raised the excuse is that women are not cut out for such roles so men have to take up the slacka dn it can't be both ways

it is quite clear to me that what feminism wants is for easier lives for women at the cost of men




sundin13 on 05 November 2014
contestgamer said:
sundin13 said:
contestgamer said:
 

Sexual discrimination is just as wrong and in most cases illegal. so call it what you want to call it, either way it's totally wrong.


Its illegal for businesses and whatnot. To my knowledge their are no laws on personal discrimination as long as you keep your actions below hate crime. If you honestly claim that you treat women exactly the same way you treat men, I can only assume you are lying. When I'm around my guy friends, I'm more likely to make innapropriate jokes or talk about sports or play sports. When I'm around my girl friends, I probably wouldn't be doing most of those things. Is that discrimination? Well yeah...does that make it wrong? I don't think so.

Also, I would like to point out, that I, as a straight male, only really hit on women. Should I start hitting on men to avoid that horrible, horrible discrimination?

contestgamer said:

Extreme feminism is ridiculous, most women just want equality. We don't want to be treated like sexual objects, like sidekicks to men. You don't need the state to do that, it can be done by educating men. A lot of things about how men interact with women and other men has changed for the better without the need of state action - simply social pressure and education has brought about those changes. Same idea is behind most civil rights movements.


The problem is when feminists start attacking things like someone saying "hello" to them. That is just ridiculous. We don't need social pressure to make us more impersonal... We don't need to protect women to this extent (and who exactly is here to protect the men from people who say "hello" to them on the street? Discrimination I say!)

I think most people are fine with equality (to a point), but some of these complaints are just ridiculous, and sensationalistly labeling it as "harassment" doesn't help your argument, it just makes people think you are being ridiculous.


What do you mean by "equality is fine (to a point)"?  When you say "people" you seem to be saying "men". Most women I've talked to that have seen that video lamented similar things happening to them on a regular basis and absolutely hate it. Your issue seems to be the word "harassment", however it doesn't seem like you really understand how much these types of social interactions actually effect women. Usually I ignore it and walk on by, but I've seen women flip out or cry after these types of interactions. A "hi" might seem harmless, but in a big city where everyone is anonymous (I'm from NY btw), the intemidation factor is very real, because we know that most men that say "hi"randomly on the streets in a city like NY aren't just trying to be "nice". They're typically doing it out of sexual motivation and a good chunk of guys don't leave it at that. If every guy in the world just said hi and a significant chunk of them didn't escalate it further in to butt grabbing, groping, following and threats then this wouldn't be an issue - but in my experience many if not most of the guys that have done that to me or my friends in the past have started with something inoccous on the street such as a "hi". If guys don't want to be dumped in the same category as them then as a rule of thumb don't say hi to a woman on the street unless she gave you eye contact first. Is that so hard?


"What do you mean by "equality is fine (to a point)"?": Well people aren't all equal on an individual basis... You aren't going to see a 50/50 gender split in all avenues of life because that just isn't logical. 

"When you say "people" you seem to be saying "men"": Errr...excuse me? 

"They're typically doing it out of sexual motivation and a good chunk of guys don't leave it at that": Yeah, so the problem isn't that someone said hi. It is that some people obviously take things too far to the point of harassment. The harassment is the problem, not the greeting. Why should we ask people to stay silent in the streets? I think that there should be more friendly greetings and whatnot. Just because you are gunshy or triggered by friendly greetings doesn't mean that they are harassment. 

I repeat, the greeting is not the problem. We should not lambast people for being friendly. It isn't the world's job to protect you from your triggers, it is your own job to find a way to deal with it. Harassment is an obvious issue, but there is no reason to look down on friendly greetings.

This line of logic reminds me of all the people who attack video games after every school shooting. Yes, the person may have played video games, and hell, they may have even played video games while fantasizing about killing people, but that doesn't mean we should blame the video games. 

Its a bit of a "guilty by association" fallacy, in which you attack something peripheral instead of the obvious problem. 



contestgamer on 05 November 2014
sundin13 said:
contestgamer said:
sundin13 said:
contestgamer said:
 

Sexual discrimination is just as wrong and in most cases illegal. so call it what you want to call it, either way it's totally wrong.


Its illegal for businesses and whatnot. To my knowledge their are no laws on personal discrimination as long as you keep your actions below hate crime. If you honestly claim that you treat women exactly the same way you treat men, I can only assume you are lying. When I'm around my guy friends, I'm more likely to make innapropriate jokes or talk about sports or play sports. When I'm around my girl friends, I probably wouldn't be doing most of those things. Is that discrimination? Well yeah...does that make it wrong? I don't think so.

Also, I would like to point out, that I, as a straight male, only really hit on women. Should I start hitting on men to avoid that horrible, horrible discrimination?

contestgamer said:

Extreme feminism is ridiculous, most women just want equality. We don't want to be treated like sexual objects, like sidekicks to men. You don't need the state to do that, it can be done by educating men. A lot of things about how men interact with women and other men has changed for the better without the need of state action - simply social pressure and education has brought about those changes. Same idea is behind most civil rights movements.


The problem is when feminists start attacking things like someone saying "hello" to them. That is just ridiculous. We don't need social pressure to make us more impersonal... We don't need to protect women to this extent (and who exactly is here to protect the men from people who say "hello" to them on the street? Discrimination I say!)

I think most people are fine with equality (to a point), but some of these complaints are just ridiculous, and sensationalistly labeling it as "harassment" doesn't help your argument, it just makes people think you are being ridiculous.


What do you mean by "equality is fine (to a point)"?  When you say "people" you seem to be saying "men". Most women I've talked to that have seen that video lamented similar things happening to them on a regular basis and absolutely hate it. Your issue seems to be the word "harassment", however it doesn't seem like you really understand how much these types of social interactions actually effect women. Usually I ignore it and walk on by, but I've seen women flip out or cry after these types of interactions. A "hi" might seem harmless, but in a big city where everyone is anonymous (I'm from NY btw), the intemidation factor is very real, because we know that most men that say "hi"randomly on the streets in a city like NY aren't just trying to be "nice". They're typically doing it out of sexual motivation and a good chunk of guys don't leave it at that. If every guy in the world just said hi and a significant chunk of them didn't escalate it further in to butt grabbing, groping, following and threats then this wouldn't be an issue - but in my experience many if not most of the guys that have done that to me or my friends in the past have started with something inoccous on the street such as a "hi". If guys don't want to be dumped in the same category as them then as a rule of thumb don't say hi to a woman on the street unless she gave you eye contact first. Is that so hard?


"What do you mean by "equality is fine (to a point)"?": Well people aren't all equal on an individual basis... You aren't going to see a 50/50 gender split in all avenues of life because that just isn't logical. 

"When you say "people" you seem to be saying "men"": Errr...excuse me? 

"They're typically doing it out of sexual motivation and a good chunk of guys don't leave it at that": Yeah, so the problem isn't that someone said hi. It is that some people obviously take things too far to the point of harassment. The harassment is the problem, not the greeting. Why should we ask people to stay silent in the streets? I think that there should be more friendly greetings and whatnot. Just because you are gunshy or triggered by friendly greetings doesn't mean that they are harassment. 

I repeat, the greeting is not the problem. We should not lambast people for being friendly. It isn't the world's job to protect you from your triggers, it is your own job to find a way to deal with it. Harassment is an obvious issue, but there is no reason to look down on friendly greetings.

This line of logic reminds me of all the people who attack video games after every school shooting. Yes, the person may have played video games, and hell, they may have even played video games while fantasizing about killing people, but that doesn't mean we should blame the video games. 

Its a bit of a "guilty by association" fallacy, in which you attack something peripheral instead of the obvious problem. 


You're confusing friendliness with a greeting that is in large part sexually motivated.



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method114 on 05 November 2014
contestgamer said:
sundin13 said:
contestgamer said:
sundin13 said:
contestgamer said:
 

Sexual discrimination is just as wrong and in most cases illegal. so call it what you want to call it, either way it's totally wrong.


Its illegal for businesses and whatnot. To my knowledge their are no laws on personal discrimination as long as you keep your actions below hate crime. If you honestly claim that you treat women exactly the same way you treat men, I can only assume you are lying. When I'm around my guy friends, I'm more likely to make innapropriate jokes or talk about sports or play sports. When I'm around my girl friends, I probably wouldn't be doing most of those things. Is that discrimination? Well yeah...does that make it wrong? I don't think so.

Also, I would like to point out, that I, as a straight male, only really hit on women. Should I start hitting on men to avoid that horrible, horrible discrimination?

contestgamer said:

Extreme feminism is ridiculous, most women just want equality. We don't want to be treated like sexual objects, like sidekicks to men. You don't need the state to do that, it can be done by educating men. A lot of things about how men interact with women and other men has changed for the better without the need of state action - simply social pressure and education has brought about those changes. Same idea is behind most civil rights movements.


The problem is when feminists start attacking things like someone saying "hello" to them. That is just ridiculous. We don't need social pressure to make us more impersonal... We don't need to protect women to this extent (and who exactly is here to protect the men from people who say "hello" to them on the street? Discrimination I say!)

I think most people are fine with equality (to a point), but some of these complaints are just ridiculous, and sensationalistly labeling it as "harassment" doesn't help your argument, it just makes people think you are being ridiculous.


What do you mean by "equality is fine (to a point)"?  When you say "people" you seem to be saying "men". Most women I've talked to that have seen that video lamented similar things happening to them on a regular basis and absolutely hate it. Your issue seems to be the word "harassment", however it doesn't seem like you really understand how much these types of social interactions actually effect women. Usually I ignore it and walk on by, but I've seen women flip out or cry after these types of interactions. A "hi" might seem harmless, but in a big city where everyone is anonymous (I'm from NY btw), the intemidation factor is very real, because we know that most men that say "hi"randomly on the streets in a city like NY aren't just trying to be "nice". They're typically doing it out of sexual motivation and a good chunk of guys don't leave it at that. If every guy in the world just said hi and a significant chunk of them didn't escalate it further in to butt grabbing, groping, following and threats then this wouldn't be an issue - but in my experience many if not most of the guys that have done that to me or my friends in the past have started with something inoccous on the street such as a "hi". If guys don't want to be dumped in the same category as them then as a rule of thumb don't say hi to a woman on the street unless she gave you eye contact first. Is that so hard?


"What do you mean by "equality is fine (to a point)"?": Well people aren't all equal on an individual basis... You aren't going to see a 50/50 gender split in all avenues of life because that just isn't logical. 

"When you say "people" you seem to be saying "men"": Errr...excuse me? 

"They're typically doing it out of sexual motivation and a good chunk of guys don't leave it at that": Yeah, so the problem isn't that someone said hi. It is that some people obviously take things too far to the point of harassment. The harassment is the problem, not the greeting. Why should we ask people to stay silent in the streets? I think that there should be more friendly greetings and whatnot. Just because you are gunshy or triggered by friendly greetings doesn't mean that they are harassment. 

I repeat, the greeting is not the problem. We should not lambast people for being friendly. It isn't the world's job to protect you from your triggers, it is your own job to find a way to deal with it. Harassment is an obvious issue, but there is no reason to look down on friendly greetings.

This line of logic reminds me of all the people who attack video games after every school shooting. Yes, the person may have played video games, and hell, they may have even played video games while fantasizing about killing people, but that doesn't mean we should blame the video games. 

Its a bit of a "guilty by association" fallacy, in which you attack something peripheral instead of the obvious problem. 


You're confusing friendliness with a greeting that is in large part sexually motivated.


You can't possibly know if all these greetings are sexually motivated and even if they are so what we can't stop people from saying "hi" or some other friendly greeting that's just stupid. 

I was having a bad day one day me and my GF got into a fight. Well this huge african-american girl was on her porch and saw me walking to my car and said "don't be sad smile". Her comment was probably sexually motivated I'm a light skinned guy and afircan american women seem to be very attracted to me. Did I get all up in arms about it? No I actually smiled cause I thought it was great. More people need to be like this we need to be promoting more social interaction with eachother not protecting people who are afraid of a guy saying "hello".

Now when a women makes it clear she doesn't want to talk to you and it continues then we have a problem.



ParryWinkle on 05 November 2014
MoHasanie said:

I thought this video was interesting:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A

What do you think about it? Do you think all those guys were creeps or were some just being nice?


It's nice to know these type of feminists are such a small minority.



Soundwave on 05 November 2014

One thing I will say about the video and the "OMG, I can't even say hi to a girl anymore!" thing ... the thing is most of the guys in the video aren't saying just "hi".

If I come into your house and say "hi" to your mom, I'm sure you'd be OK with that.

If I come into your house and "hey baby" and then glare at her ass and say "Mmmmm, you look good today" ... I don't think most people would be OK with that.

"Hi" and the above is not the same thing.

I know some guys will say "well I wouldn't mind if women complimented me" ... would you also be just fine with gay men leering at you, following you around, saying "mmm and hey stud" as you walk past?

That said, I think women need to understand too that they're aren't men, and things are never going to be 100% equal in this regard. They hold many advantages in the male-female dynamic when it comes to relationships and sex ... hey it's not fair that decent-to-good looking women get ushered to the front of the line at nightclubs and other events, but it is what it is. It's not fair that men have to be the ones that generally approach and deal with issue of getting rejected, whereas women can basically sit back and "audition" guys. 

But I will say yeah, I can see a woman's POV here that getting cat called while just walking down the street would get annoying and highly uncomfortable after a while. I'm not sure what can be done about it. Some men just play a numbers game where they will have to try and interact (no matter how crude the fashion is) with every attractive woman they see.



curl-6 on 05 November 2014
Soundwave said:

I know some guys will say "well I wouldn't mind if women complimented me" ... would you also be just fine with gay men leering at you, following you around, saying "mmm and hey stud" as you walk past?

Obviously, I can't speak for women, but I have no problem with being hit on by gay guys, I find it flattering. But that's just me.



pepharytheworm on 05 November 2014
Soundwave said:

One thing I will say about the video and the "OMG, I can't even say hi to a girl anymore!" thing ... the thing is most of the guys in the video aren't saying just "hi".

If I come into your house and say "hi" to your mom, I'm sure you'd be OK with that.

If I come into your house and "hey baby" and then glare at her ass and say "Mmmmm, you look good today" ... I don't think most people would be OK with that.

"Hi" and the above is not the same thing.

I know some guys will say "well I wouldn't mind if women complimented me" ... would you also be just fine with gay men leering at you, following you around, saying "mmm and hey stud" as you walk past?

That said, I think women need to understand too that they're aren't men, and things are never going to be 100% equal in this regard. They hold many advantages in the male-female dynamic when it comes to relationships and sex ... hey it's not fair that decent-to-good looking women get ushered to the front of the line at nightclubs and other events, but it is what it is. It's not fair that men have to be the ones that generally approach and deal with issue of getting rejected, whereas women can basically sit back and "audition" guys. 

But I will say yeah, I can see a woman's POV here that getting cat called while just walking down the street would get annoying and highly uncomfortable after a while. I'm not sure what can be done about it. Some men just play a numbers game where they will have to try and interact (no matter how crude the fashion is) with every attractive woman they see.


Alot of what you are saying feminism is fighting. The male-female dynamic you're speaking of is mostly caused by men. Attractive women have advantages because of men. Who do you think ushers those ladies to the front? Men do so for men. Yes there are women who take advantage of man's weakness, but men usually don't care cause in the end it's to their advantage and the possibility of sex. And I agree that some women aren't use to rejection when it comes to sex, I have said no a few times in my life and they didn't usually take it well. But again women didn't make this dynamic we did by making the perception that men's main drive and goal is sex. But women do have plenty of fear of rejection in relationships with men.

I agree mostly with everything else you said.