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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Nintendo -V- 3rd Parties

STRYKIE on 07 August 2014

This is just my subjective perspective but, the problem seems to be that the cycle goes something like this:

- Nintendo gets into a scenario where they think they're finally back in the long term good books of 3rd parties
- They expect it to happen in a very NES-like fashion where 3rd parties only came to them because there no other viable competitors in the most established markets
- 3rd parties are not given the resources to achieve their visions, shift focus towards other platforms
- Nintendo evaluates dormant IPs/marketing strategies to fill the void
- Nintendo green-lights new game for said IP based on it's most successful title
- Usually ends up being a very average/antiquated game once the nostalgia goggles wear off (Yoshi's New Island)
- If it is commercially successful, Nintendo will eventually milk the trump card dry. (NSMB)
- Nostalgia-reboot hybrids =/= sequels
- Repeat.

This all being said, Starfox U will basically end up being Do-A-Barrel-Roll U. Mark my words.



Bet with Einsam_Delphin: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=172355&page=11

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DerNebel on 07 August 2014
impertinence said:
I laugh at all the people who go to the "just your opinion" card when they are confronted by the fact that Nintendo is the best video game developer in the world.

If you apply any sort of objective metric it's an obvious conclusion. Yet people insist on dismissing it based on their personal taste as if that has any bearing on the issue. Of course, this kind of reactionary behavior undermines the use of comparative adjectives all together and makes statements comparing anything meaningless.

For example if I say that Wii U has the best 3rd party support, people would get their panties in a bunch and go to the delusional argument or whatever. No one would care that my opinion is that for every iteration of Madden that misses a console, third party support gets better. In this case, it's perfectly acceptable to use objective measurements of what constitutes better or worse. So why is it so important to hold up subjective opinion when the fact that Nintendo rules the video game world come up?

Because it burns, that's why. It burns people to know in their heart of hearts that their personal favorite companies and entities will never reach past the ankles of Nintendo. Not in historical significance, not in hard sales, not in quality, not in any meaningful way. And when we burn on the inside, we look for ways to control that fire and go to irrational lengths to fool ourselves.

Cute rant you have there, still doesn't make the opinion that Nintendo is the best video game developer in the world more than an opinion though.



impertinence on 07 August 2014
DerNebel said:
impertinence said:
I laugh at all the people who go to the "just your opinion" card when they are confronted by the fact that Nintendo is the best video game developer in the world.

If you apply any sort of objective metric it's an obvious conclusion. Yet people insist on dismissing it based on their personal taste as if that has any bearing on the issue. Of course, this kind of reactionary behavior undermines the use of comparative adjectives all together and makes statements comparing anything meaningless.

For example if I say that Wii U has the best 3rd party support, people would get their panties in a bunch and go to the delusional argument or whatever. No one would care that my opinion is that for every iteration of Madden that misses a console, third party support gets better. In this case, it's perfectly acceptable to use objective measurements of what constitutes better or worse. So why is it so important to hold up subjective opinion when the fact that Nintendo rules the video game world come up?

Because it burns, that's why. It burns people to know in their heart of hearts that their personal favorite companies and entities will never reach past the ankles of Nintendo. Not in historical significance, not in hard sales, not in quality, not in any meaningful way. And when we burn on the inside, we look for ways to control that fire and go to irrational lengths to fool ourselves.

Cute rant you have there, still doesn't make the opinion that Nintendo is the best video game developer in the world more than an opinion though.

Despite your condesending attitude and dismisive language; I was not stating an opinion I was stating a fact. The fact(he, he) that you can't see it is an excellent example of what I am referring to when I say we go very far to hide unplesant truth from ourselves.

To make the argument simpler to understand for foreign readers: To use the word "best" with any kind of meaning (when not relating to personal taste) you have to look at objective measurable data. If people are willing to do that they will see that there is no way of looking at the numbers in the videogame world and come to any ther conclusion than this: Nintendo is the best video game developer in the world. Any other interpretation is subjective and a reflection of whomevers personal taste. In this day and age many people live under the false conviction that their personal opinion is somehow relevant and interesting to other people and such warrents whole threads on discussuion boards dedicated to them stating their opinions about all manner of things. All of this is just noise however, the facts and numbers are the same no matter how much you and others plug your ears and make up criteria to fit what you want to see.

For example, in my personal opinion Sid Meier is the best video game designer ever. This is a statement of my opinion, but it is not a fact. A factual analysis would require looking into number of games designed, their impact, their reception etc and the result would probably be that Shigeru Miyamoto is the best video game designer ever (I don't know that this is true, but I suspect it might be). The difference is that finding out who is the best video game designer is a topic of general interest, finding out who my favorite game designer is is useless and interesting only to myself and no one else in the entire world.



Intrinsic on 07 August 2014
impertinence said:
I laugh at all the people who go to the "just your opinion" card when they are confronted by the fact that Nintendo is the best video game developer in the world.

If you apply any sort of objective metric it's an obvious conclusion. Yet people insist on dismissing it based on their personal taste as if that has any bearing on the issue. Of course, this kind of reactionary behavior undermines the use of comparative adjectives all together and makes statements comparing anything meaningless.

For example if I say that Wii U has the best 3rd party support, people would get their panties in a bunch and go to the delusional argument or whatever. No one would care that my opinion is that for every iteration of Madden that misses a console, third party support gets better. In this case, it's perfectly acceptable to use objective measurements of what constitutes better or worse. So why is it so important to hold up subjective opinion when the fact that Nintendo rules the video game world come up?

Because it burns, that's why. It burns people to know in their heart of hearts that their personal favorite companies and entities will never reach past the ankles of Nintendo. Not in historical significance, not in hard sales, not in quality, not in any meaningful way. And when we burn on the inside, we look for ways to control that fire and go to irrational lengths to fool ourselves.

People like you sincerely scare me. I can wrap my head around the idiots that post idiotic (albeit highly opinionated) rhetorics and pass them along as facts. But when I see obvious deductive brilliance in posts like yours but yet oozing blind bias and for lack of a better word pure fanaticism; it genuinely sends a shiver down my spine. If for nothing else, makes me see just how strong a persons convictions can be even though they are wrong or limited. Truly scary.

That being said, it may also all be that you just don't know what it means to have an opinion or better yet, that it may just be possible that people see or look at things differently from you. But hey, everyone that doesn't share your view or opinion must be "looking for ways to control that fire and going to irrational lenghts to fool themselves" so I guess its ok.

Whats really interesting though, is that your post defines you more than it does any other poster so far. Funny how that works right?



impertinence on 07 August 2014
Intrinsic said:
impertinence said:
I laugh at all the people who go to the "just your opinion" card when they are confronted by the fact that Nintendo is the best video game developer in the world.

If you apply any sort of objective metric it's an obvious conclusion. Yet people insist on dismissing it based on their personal taste as if that has any bearing on the issue. Of course, this kind of reactionary behavior undermines the use of comparative adjectives all together and makes statements comparing anything meaningless.

For example if I say that Wii U has the best 3rd party support, people would get their panties in a bunch and go to the delusional argument or whatever. No one would care that my opinion is that for every iteration of Madden that misses a console, third party support gets better. In this case, it's perfectly acceptable to use objective measurements of what constitutes better or worse. So why is it so important to hold up subjective opinion when the fact that Nintendo rules the video game world come up?

Because it burns, that's why. It burns people to know in their heart of hearts that their personal favorite companies and entities will never reach past the ankles of Nintendo. Not in historical significance, not in hard sales, not in quality, not in any meaningful way. And when we burn on the inside, we look for ways to control that fire and go to irrational lengths to fool ourselves.

People like you sincerely scare me. I can wrap my head around the idiots that post idiotic (albeit highly opinionated) rhetorics and pass them along as facts. But when I see obvious deductive brilliance in posts like yours but yet oozing blind bias and for lack of a better word pure fanaticism; it genuinely sends a shiver down my spine. If for nothing else, makes me see just how strong a persons convictions can be even though they are wrong or limited. Truly scary.

That being said, it may also all be that you just don't know what it means to have an opinion or better yet, that it may just be possible that people see or look at things differently from you. But hey, everyone that doesn't share your view or opinion must be "looking for ways to control that fire and going to irrational lenghts to fool themselves" so I guess its ok.

Whats really interesting though, is that your post defines you more than it does any other poster so far. Funny how that works right?

It burns doesn't it?

Please find a meaningful objective metric that does not imply that Nintendo is not the best videogame developer in the world. Persoanlly, the last time I was even remotely interested in a 'Console War' was during the SNES vs. Genesis days, and I was firmly in the Sega camp. I have no strong emotional attatchment to Nintendo, what I do have is the maturity to see past what I personally would want to be true and look at the basic metrics to find out what is really true.

There is no reasonable analysis that can be made of the numbers behind the video game industry that comes to any other conclusion. You cannot find any other devloper better than Nintendo without bringing in subjective opinion.

I appreciate your attempts to dismiss the argument by labeling me as fanatic and blinded by bias, but you still have not grasped what I am saying. I have layed out clear as day what it means to have an opinion and understand perfectly well that people have different tastes and view things differently. That's why I am saying that for comperative adjectives like 'best' to have any sort of useful meaning (outside describing your personal preference) you have to disregard subjective opinion and look at measurable data. Predictably many people refuse to do this, because it burns them.



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DerNebel on 07 August 2014
impertinence said:
DerNebel said:

Cute rant you have there, still doesn't make the opinion that Nintendo is the best video game developer in the world more than an opinion though.

Despite your condesending attitude and dismisive language; I was not stating an opinion I was stating a fact. The fact(he, he) that you can't see it is an excellent example of what I am referring to when I say we go very far to hide unplesant truth from ourselves.

To make the argument simpler to understand for foreign readers: To use the word "best" with any kind of meaning (when not relating to personal taste) you have to look at objective measurable data. If people are willing to do that they will see that there is no way of looking at the numbers in the videogame world and come to any ther conclusion than this: Nintendo is the best video game developer in the world. Any other interpretation is subjective and a reflection of whomevers personal taste. In this day and age many people live under the false conviction that their personal opinion is somehow relevant and interesting to other people and such warrents whole threads on discussuion boards dedicated to them stating their opinions about all manner of things. All of this is just noise however, the facts and numbers are the same no matter how much you and others plug your ears and make up criteria to fit what you want to see.

For example, in my personal opinion Sid Meier is the best video game designer ever. This is a statement of my opinion, but it is not a fact. A factual analysis would require looking into number of games designed, their impact, their reception etc and the result would probably be that Shigeru Miyamoto is the best video game designer ever (I don't know that this is true, but I suspect it might be). The difference is that finding out who is the best video game designer is a topic of general interest, finding out who my favorite game designer is is useless and interesting only to myself and no one else in the entire world.

Yeah...again, you can continue pulling that bullshit out of your ass for as long as you like, but it's still an opinion and is forever going to be an opinion. There is no "objective measurable data" that shows that Nintendo are the best game developers.



impertinence on 07 August 2014
DerNebel said:
impertinence said:

Despite your condesending attitude and dismisive language; I was not stating an opinion I was stating a fact. The fact(he, he) that you can't see it is an excellent example of what I am referring to when I say we go very far to hide unplesant truth from ourselves.

To make the argument simpler to understand for foreign readers: To use the word "best" with any kind of meaning (when not relating to personal taste) you have to look at objective measurable data. If people are willing to do that they will see that there is no way of looking at the numbers in the videogame world and come to any ther conclusion than this: Nintendo is the best video game developer in the world. Any other interpretation is subjective and a reflection of whomevers personal taste. In this day and age many people live under the false conviction that their personal opinion is somehow relevant and interesting to other people and such warrents whole threads on discussuion boards dedicated to them stating their opinions about all manner of things. All of this is just noise however, the facts and numbers are the same no matter how much you and others plug your ears and make up criteria to fit what you want to see.

For example, in my personal opinion Sid Meier is the best video game designer ever. This is a statement of my opinion, but it is not a fact. A factual analysis would require looking into number of games designed, their impact, their reception etc and the result would probably be that Shigeru Miyamoto is the best video game designer ever (I don't know that this is true, but I suspect it might be). The difference is that finding out who is the best video game designer is a topic of general interest, finding out who my favorite game designer is is useless and interesting only to myself and no one else in the entire world.

Yeah...again, you can continue pulling that bullshit out of your ass for as long as you like, but it's still an opinion and is forever going to be an opinion. There is no "objective measurable data" that shows that Nintendo are the best game developers.

I wonder how long before Intrinsic decides to call you out for not understanding what an opinion is? My guess is never since you guys seem to be in agreement that it is somehow detrimental to your world view to aknowledge the fact that Nintendo is the best videogame developer in the world.

Contrary to your unsubstantiated claim there are a number of reliable sources for measurable data about the videogame industry. Pick anyone you'd like: total sales, profits, number of titles, critical reception. If you had any interest in actually challenging your own narrow view of how the world must be, you'd already know by now that regardless of metric there is no (meaningful) way to claim that someone other than Nintendo is the best videogame developer in the world. This isn't even touching on the (harder to quantify) metrics of cultural impact and influence.



DerNebel on 07 August 2014
impertinence said:
DerNebel said:

Yeah...again, you can continue pulling that bullshit out of your ass for as long as you like, but it's still an opinion and is forever going to be an opinion. There is no "objective measurable data" that shows that Nintendo are the best game developers.

I wonder how long before Intrinsic decides to call you out for not understanding what an opinion is? My guess is never since you guys seem to be in agreement that it is somehow detrimental to your world view to aknowledge the fact that Nintendo is the best videogame developer in the world.

Contrary to your unsubstantiated claim there are a number of reliable sources for measurable data about the videogame industry. Pick anyone you'd like: total sales, profits, number of titles, critical reception. If you had any interest in actually challenging your own narrow view of how the world must be, you'd already know by now that regardless of metric there is no (meaningful) way to claim that someone other than Nintendo is the best videogame developer in the world. This isn't even touching on the (harder to quantify) metrics of cultural impact and influence.

Your objective data is completely arbitrary to the question who is the best game developer

Sales and profit: Well I guess Angry Birds, Candy Crush and Wii Sports are the best games in existence. Also to get away from the games industry for a second, I guess Tyler Perry is on of the best directors out there, cause he makes some most money with his films.

Number of titles: Whoop-de-do they've made a lot of games, that naturally means that they must be the best.

Critical Reception: The developer with the highest average on Metacritic I believe is ND and even if it's someone else (it's certainly not Nintendo) then that still would be nothing but aggregated opinions of people.

Also it's hilarious how you try to color my world view as the narrow one here, while you, as is typical for a teenager of your age,  are dead set on your point being the right one. Face it, your statement is wrong and will always be wrong, there is no scientifically right way to quantify something like "best developer", cause that is always a matter of opinion.



Carl on 07 August 2014

Y'all. Dont make things personal. Opinions vary. If you disagree with what someone says argue against the points they make, not the person making the post. If you disagree with what impertinence is saying, pick apart his post and debate it out.
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Impertinence, I think the key thing youre getting wrong is the whole "developer" thing. Nintendo isnt a straight-up developer, Nintendo is a publisher with several dev teams under the name. Putting the entirety of "Nintendo" up against one other dev team is just not cricket. Its simply not fair. "Nintendo" would need to be put up against Sony Computer Entertainment as a whole, or Activision-Blizzard, or Take-Two Interactive with Rockstar under the roof... To Ubisoft or EA.

Nintendo as a Publisher is on a totally different level to 99% of the industry. No arguing against that, but when you split "Nintendo" down into the development teams (Like you would for Sony to get to Naughty Dog, Polyphony Digital, etc.) you get a totally different picture when matching the teams up against other teams from other publishers.

I dont think we can realistically pick out one single developer as being the best, because a lot of different dev temas are damn good at a whole lot of different things.



                            

impertinence on 07 August 2014
DerNebel said:
impertinence said:

I wonder how long before Intrinsic decides to call you out for not understanding what an opinion is? My guess is never since you guys seem to be in agreement that it is somehow detrimental to your world view to aknowledge the fact that Nintendo is the best videogame developer in the world.

Contrary to your unsubstantiated claim there are a number of reliable sources for measurable data about the videogame industry. Pick anyone you'd like: total sales, profits, number of titles, critical reception. If you had any interest in actually challenging your own narrow view of how the world must be, you'd already know by now that regardless of metric there is no (meaningful) way to claim that someone other than Nintendo is the best videogame developer in the world. This isn't even touching on the (harder to quantify) metrics of cultural impact and influence.

Your objective data is completely arbitrary to the question who is the best game developer

Sales and profit: Well I guess Angry Birds, Candy Crush and Wii Sports are the best games in existence. Also to get away from the games industry for a second, I guess Tyler Perry is on of the best directors out there, cause he makes some most money with his films.

Number of titles: Whoop-de-do they've made a lot of games, that naturally means that they must be the best.

Critical Reception: The developer with the highest average on Metacritic I believe is ND and even if it's someone else (it's certainly not Nintendo) then that still would be nothing but aggregated opinions of people.

Also it's hilarious how you try to color my world view as the narrow one here, while you, as is typical for a teenager of your age,  are dead set on your point being the right one. Face it, your statement is wrong and will always be wrong, there is no scientifically right way to quantify something like "best developer", cause that is always a matter of opinion.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the confusion comes down to language differences. You seem to be thinking I am using the scioentifc meaning of 'fact', perhaps my insistance on objective measurrements is what have lead you in this direction, but in English a fact can mean more than a scientific fact. For example, an event or a thing that is true. Something that has happened, or as I am using it, a conclusion that follows reasonably from observations.

Let me try to put this into terms you might understand better. If I say "Franz Beckenbauer is the best German footballer ever", this can not be considered a fact (although it is pretty close). People can make semi-reasonable arguments for Gerd Müller or Rummenigge, maybe even Lothar Matthäus or even Mirosalv Klose. If I say Beckenbauer is the best German defender of all time then we are getting much closer to what I am describing as a fact. I am sure that you know at least one person who will claim that Phillip Lahm is better than Beckenbauer, and that would be their opinion and as an opinion it can't be wrong, but it doesn't change the fact that Beckenbauer by any reasonable comparison is a better and more important defender. It will still be an accepted fact that Beckenbauer is the best German defender no matter what your uninformed friend thinks.

In the case of Nintendo vs everybody else the seperation is even clearer than in my example. If you follow hockey substitute with Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux in my example above.

As for the rest of your post that is worth responding to: Of course the metrics are arbitrary, I've basically said so myself, the point is no matter what metrics you use the conclusion remains the same. That is the whole point, and that's why I don't hesitate to call it a fact, because Nintendo really is that dominant. And yes, if we remove subjective taste out of the equation, a lot of highly accessible music movies etc will also climb on the 'best ever' lists in their field. So what?