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Forums - Nintendo - That lack of third party support is good for Nintendo

Well, its good for the certification department, with all those hours vague, that we can garantee :D.

But in reality, even if nintendo tried to cater to 3rd parties in some moment before the console launched, they come to then too late, and seems most of the input of the devs came long after the desing of console where alreadly defined. I remenber that declaration from a THQ developer upon the premature cancellation of Metro Last Light on the system:"Wiiu processor is slow and horrible". How nobody come to him and asked before? If they were serious about having that support, they need they feedback as much as they their own.

I remenber too that at a meeting at gearbox before ps4 was announced, the director of the studio (pitchford something) said for the head of sony project that if ps4 would have only 4GB, they were done, and everybody there agreed. Then that head came back to japan and made ps4 have 8GB. Some time later, that same studio stated that they were not working in any wiiu games because that product was something nintendo just put on the market and then came to them, having no real input from them.

So yeah, if they intend to have any kind of support on their next machine, they need to listen to developer around the globe(not only japanese), and this takes time. They can't start so late next time.

But in no way its good for nintendo to have less titles in its catalogue. Do you realize that some of the titles we saw at e3 will slip to 2016? That the lack of expressive games this summer will make people who just bougth the MK8 bundle will just put away the console or sell, and say that is crap because the lack of games? Lets take a look at hyrule warriors, devil third and sonic boom. Thoose are the game that you want to be wiiu exclusive? Do you really believe that those game will outsell another Wiiu multiplat release and will lead the return of 3rd parties? If splatoon, and other effort like yar yoshi and bayonetta 2 don't sell really well, you can bet nintendo will do what give them money: sequel after sequel.



"Hardware design isn’t about making the most powerful thing you can.
Today most hardware design is left to other companies, but when you make hardware without taking into account the needs of the eventual software developers, you end up with bloated hardware full of pointless excess. From the outset one must consider design from both a hardware and software perspective."

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This may be fine for Nintendo gamers but it isn't for the masses.



Nintendo will get more creative to survive but it wont fix the third party problem.





                
       ---Member of the official Squeezol Fanclub---

Mr Khan said:

Their historical and present pettiness aside, third parties are not the villains per se. They are trying to make their money (though not doing an especially good job of it, really). It also bears digging into some of the coded language we all use here. When we say "third party support" we mean "integrated in the multiplat ecosystem" which is why handhelds, where exclusives still rule, are eliminated from the equation. Similarly, the position I and other Nintendo fans advocate is not "kick all third parties to the curb" as i earlier said, but instead "screw trying to pursue parity." Parity in the multiplat realm is a severe uphill battle, as evidenced by the Wii U, and one that is ultimately fruitless, as Sony and Microsoft are already at the top of that hill and Nintendo would have to exert so much effort to even draw level with them that it is, as i said earlier, a fool's errand. The money and energy that would need to be spent to even buy admission into that arena could be better spent on a lateral-thinking kind of strategy. In this realm you could also pursue third parties, either whole companies or specific projects from the big guys, projects that can't work in the current ecosystem but could work in a third-way environment. That was how third party support (that wasn't party-game shovelware) ultimately worked on the Wii: the Wii was a low-risk environment, but still more stable and capable than Mobile at the time, where B-games could, not flourish necessarily, but make a living for themselves.

I said "eShop", but this solution could take multiple forms. Nintendo should better pursue kid-friendly third party games, which still come out from the West and still make appearances on Wii U, and thus is something they could deal with now. More partnership games like Devil's Third and Bayonetta 2 could work out as well, where you pursue games which would get ignored or lose money trying to compete with the Western AAA blockbusters. More games like No More Heroes, in short.

eShop is a possible way forward in that Nintendo could encourage indies and then, essentially, try to promote promising indies into doing boxed retail titles, or retail-grade titles like The Witness.

So this is a post explaining my earlier, more ornery and less thoughtful reply to Rol.

I do agree with you that staying out of the multi-plat arms race is one option for Nintendo.  I don't think it's the only option, though.  They could still enter the multi-plat domain on the low end.

The one thing that cannot do and hope to succeed is to hit that unappealing middle-ground where the Wii U lives.

In order to survive without multi-plats, they need to come in at a price point that is significantly cheaper than the competition.  This is where the Wii U failed badly.  It's far too expensive to NOT have multi-plats.  A Nintendo console that focuses on Nintendo exclusives would have, as I see it, a consumer base mostly comprised of: A) the Nintendo faithful, B) budget- or content-sensitive parents, and C) people who want it as a second console.  Two of those three categories are going to hold price to be a very important consideration.  Nintendo can continue with their gimmicky/innovative hardware designs but they CANNOT go with another expensive gimmicky/innovative design.

They also need variety, which I'm glad they've recognized.  It will be interesting to see how the Bayonetta/Devil's Third experiments go.  W101 looks to be a failure but the X series will almost certainly be a success.

With the Wii U, they decided to compete with Sony and Microsoft and did a poor job of it.  They didn't do the groundwork and they didn't bring a machine that could match the PS4 and XO over the long-run.  The whole situation is a mess of poor decisions.  It's like someone saying they want to get Valedictorian and then not studying.  The fierce competition between Sony and Microsoft has raised the barriers of entrying into that mutli-plat ecosystem way beyond the "build it and they will come" philosophy.  Now it takes work, it takes investments of time and money, and Nintendo has not shown that they are willing or able to do that in the west.

They still could, though.  If they started RIGHT NOW, they could build their processes for the new generation.  They could hire someone from Sony or Microsoft who has experience with western developers.  They could review their mistakes and weak areas.  They could enter the market with a console built from off-the-shelf parts (seriously, no one cares about that "low power draw" stuff) that is only slightly lower than the PS5 in both specs and price and they could compete quite well.  However, Nintendo has not demonstrated any ability to pull that off.

In the end, I mostly agree with you.  The safest path for Nintendo would be to go with that "second console" model.  Sell to the people who want Nintendo games and/or the cheapest option, then try to sell to the people who already have a Playstation or Xbox.  Forget the console war, forget being "number one", and exist within their own ecosystem.  

It will be very interesting to see which path they take.



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pokoko said:

I do agree with you that staying out of the multi-plat arms race is one option for Nintendo.  I don't think it's the only option, though.  They could still enter the multi-plat domain on the low end.

The one thing that cannot do and hope to succeed is to hit that unappealing middle-ground where the Wii U lives.

In order to survive without multi-plats, they need to come in at a price point that is significantly cheaper than the competition.  This is where the Wii U failed badly.  It's far too expensive to NOT have multi-plats.  A Nintendo console that focuses on Nintendo exclusives would have, as I see it, a consumer base mostly comprised of: A) the Nintendo faithful, B) budget- or content-sensitive parents, and C) people who want it as a second console.  Two of those three categories are going to hold price to be a very important consideration.  Nintendo can continue with their gimmicky/innovative hardware designs but they CANNOT go with another expensive gimmicky/innovative design.

They also need variety, which I'm glad they've recognized.  It will be interesting to see how the Bayonetta/Devil's Third experiments go.  W101 looks to be a failure but the X series will almost certainly be a success.

With the Wii U, they decided to compete with Sony and Microsoft and did a poor job of it.  They didn't do the groundwork and they didn't bring a machine that could match the PS4 and XO over the long-run.  The whole situation is a mess of poor decisions.  It's like someone saying they want to get Valedictorian and then not studying.  The fierce competition between Sony and Microsoft has raised the barriers of entrying into that mutli-plat ecosystem way beyond the "build it and they will come" philosophy.  Now it takes work, it takes investments of time and money, and Nintendo has not shown that they are willing or able to do that in the west.

They still could, though.  If they started RIGHT NOW, they could build their processes for the new generation.  They could hire someone from Sony or Microsoft who has experience with western developers.  They could review their mistakes and weak areas.  They could enter the market with a console built from off-the-shelf parts (seriously, no one cares about that "low power draw" stuff) that is only slightly lower than the PS5 in both specs and price and they could compete quite well.  However, Nintendo has not demonstrated any ability to pull that off.

In the end, I mostly agree with you.  The safest path for Nintendo would be to go with that "second console" model.  Sell to the people who want Nintendo games and/or the cheapest option, then try to sell to the people who already have a Playstation or Xbox.  Forget the console war, forget being "number one", and exist within their own ecosystem.  

It will be very interesting to see which path they take.

Lateral thinking is certainly deeply embedded in Nintendo's hardware design philosophy, to the point where i'd think it would be impossible for them to ever really think of building an "off-the-shelf" machine. This will only hurt them further into the future as Sony and Microsoft do return to the "Original Xbox" school of console design. Nintendo would *need* an x86 chip, or bust, because they'd have to supplicate themselves before third parties who can build the game once for PC/PS/XB, and then port it to the other two with almost no trouble at all, but then take all kinds of extra effort to go to the Nintendo one?

It's gotten to the point where Nintendo would have to change themselves fundamentally on several levels to get into the multiplat arena. It really isn't worth the effort that could be better expended in finding a third way.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

pokoko said:
Darwinianevolution said:
pokoko said:
Nintendo being cast in the role of the victim interests me. This is the company that tried to rule the gaming industry with an iron fist while vacuuming up most of the profits for themselves. That came back to sting them, perhaps is still stinging them, yet now people rush to say that third parties should are the villains here? Bullshit.

They are all companies trying to do the best they can to make money. Nintendo is no better or worse. Sorry, but that's the truth. We already know that they aren't altruistic saints simply fighting the good fight for the sake of humanity.

Now, as far as Nintendo improving because of the rift with third-parties, that's possible, though we have yet to see anything to prove it. Splatoon isn't going to be a big game. Neither is Giant Robot Dry Humping Simulator. Nintendo has yet to show us their next big IP. They've yet to show us an array of Nintendo owned IP that will finally provide diversity to their home consoles. They've yet to show us that they can provide the volume of content that the other consoles will offer.

Quite honestly, we probably wouldn't see any of that until their next console, anyway.


Oh, have some faith! Splatoon can become a big franchise, just like Pikmin became a big francise!

That was cold, yo.  Damn cold.


Why? Did I say something wrong? If Nintendo can create two new big IPs per generation people complaining about "Nintendo always uses the same franchises" might get a reason to buy a Nintendo system.



You know it deserves the GOTY.

Come join The 2018 Obscure Game Monthly Review Thread.

Mr Khan said:
RolStoppable said:
It's good in the sense that Nintendo should now know that they can't trust in what third parties say. That should make their next system something that isn't a piece of trash. Iwata already said as much, Nintendo plans to redefine video game platforms. Since third parties are all about maintaining the status quo, Nintendo's plan means as much as not sucking up to third parties. Good.

Honestly i agree with this. The intransigence and double-talk third parties went through from the early Wii U to how they actually supported Wii U, combined with the Wii's success at third parties' expense, should show Nintendo exactly the way forward. Sucking up to third parties is a fool's errand: kick 'em to the curb, keep expanding the eShop internal studios  and second parties instead.

Fixed



biglittlesps said:
Nintendo brought only one new IP splatoon but Sony doing many in AAA level all the time and trying to innovate with games like Hohokum, Helldivers, Resogun, Velocity 2X, Rime, Maurasaki baby etc., even with very good 3rd party support. So, first party alone is not enough and its just to provide a incentive to the gamers who own their hardware with some unique value but 3rd party gives huge library which is important.

This says hi:

 

These too:

This is why Nintendo keeps going back to Mario, Zelda and Pokemon. When it makes new IPs,  you don't acknowledge them. When the director of Codename: S.T.E.A.M. sits down to talk about the game, he gets bombarded with questions from fans of when the next Fire Emblem and Advance Wars is coming out.



Nah, unless the HW takes off like the wii did, Nintendo systems will never do consistantly as good as Playstation which has strong exclusives AND third party support.