By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Sales Discussion - X1 will never catch or match PS4 sales, it is a misfired product.

Drumaen on 23 June 2014

This is a very interesting thread. There is a lot of good arguments even if contradictory sometimes. I mean, they all have their own merit and value based on what we know and what we can garner from past console history.

Imho, I believe MS has lost already if we keep looking at the parameters we're used to (i.e. exclusives, performance of the console for 3rd party games, etc). That being said, I believe it puts MS in an interesting position whereas if you look at what everything people here think MS should do to improve, it is almost impossible to realistically execute a successful plan based on these parameters while Sony will still keep on plodding forward and do what they do best. MS knows that it isn't just a matter of catching up to Sony. They know that even if they do all of what we propose the right way, it still will not be enough. They have to do major changes to their approach of gaming and the type of experience they want to offer gamers.

One thing that is for sure, they are not in this business to be 2nd place. I believe that in order to make the most out of their current situation they will have to look at what hasn't been done before. They will have to innovate and bring not just exclusive titles but different gaming experiences and I'm not talking indies here. When you look at a good portion of their userbase, many of their customers were avid multiplayer gamers whereas Sony's userbase is in part more inclined to play single player games. I don't know, its just me but I think they will come up with amazing ideas for the future that will be based on multiplayer experience. I believe it is still one of their strenghts and that they will probably look to capitalize on this. They are known for their multiplayer network and everyone recognizes that it is top quality.



Around the Network
Dr.Henry_Killinger on 23 June 2014
sales2099 said:
jnemesh said:
sales2099 said:

Hopefully when you are unbanned we can continue this discussion.

MS changed their policies before the console launched. When their consumer makes enough noise and sales go to the competitor, things can and will change. Don Mattrick is gone. That said, the winner is always the laziest. Sony doesn't have to try as hard as they did last gen.

PS Now rental prices.....if those prices are any indication, being 1st has its drawbacks. I at least feel good to know MS HAS to go right by their fans this gen or otherwise suffer even more. In the end, I am marvelled at your ability to see Sony as perfect angels. 


Unfortunately, the problems with the Xbox One can't be fixed with the firing of a few executives, no matter how obnoxious they were.  The problems started 3 years ago, when they created the "vision" for what the XB1 was supposed to be.  Encouraged by how people were using the 360 as a media player, they envisioned "taking over the living room" with the XB1...making it the portal for ALL of your living room entertainment.  They envisioned (and patented) using the Kinect to charge you for movies based on the number of viewers.  They also patented having the Kinect scan logos present in it's field of view and marketing targeted ads to you based on those logos.  They envisioned mining all of your viewing habits and selling that data to advertisers as well.  They wanted complete control over everything you did in the living room, from games to TV, to streaming video.  They also had a "vision" for restricting the sales of used games, making it only possible to "resell" them at "authorized" resellers, like Gamestop...of course, they would take a chunk of THAT money too.

Fortunately for all of us, the majority outright REJECTED that vision.  Many of us wouldn't buy a console that forced Kinect upon us...and they "listened" by removing the requirement to have it connected.  They also (wisely) backed down on the onerous DRM and their used game restrictions. 

Now, they backed down on Kinect COMPLETELY, unbundling it from the console....which will eventually lead to it's death...and also the death of their vision.  Without Kinect, the XB1 is "just" a game console...which is what most of us really wanted in the first place.  Problem is, the hardware is set now...and if it's competiting as "just" a game console, it's underpowered and overpriced.  Oh, it also has less games (as of this writing, XB1 has 43 games available to play RIGHT NOW, and PS4 has 88!).

They can talk about GAMES GAMES GAMES (ghosts of Ballmer!) all they want...but the fact is, a "AAA" title takes about 3 years to complete once development starts.  So they have what they have right now...don't expect them to magically pull out a system selling exclusive out of nowhere.  Yes, they will be looking to add to their exclusive game library...but that is YEARS away. 

In the meantime, they are being outsold almost 3:1 globally, and up to 2:1 in their strongest regions, the US and the UK.  Without SYSTEM SELLING games, this won't change.  In 2014 we will see Sunset Overhype and Halo 1-4 remastered be released.  THAT'S IT.  Neither will move hardware.  Want proof of that?  Look at the Amazon best sellers...pre orders for Halo are high, but the systems themselves are still stuck in the low 40s.

By the time Microsoft DOES have something (like, say Halo 5) that will move consoles...it will be entirely too late.  Microsoft AT BEST can shoot for 2nd place over the WiiU this gen, but even that is not guaranteed.

Fortunately, the problems for Xbox 1 changed with actual policy shifts plus the firing of Don. Your entire 1st paragraph is Don Mattricks vision. That vision, and himself, are gone.

X1 may be underpowered compared to PS4, but then again so was 360 to PS3. Or DS to PSP. Or 3ds to Vita. Point being games will still come and specs are always secondary. Price can and will change. I don't see X1 and PS4 being the same price for a long time.

I am aware PS4 has the gen in the bag. But that doesn't mean X1 can't be a great option in itself. I mean right now X1 has Forza 5, Dead Rising 3, Titanfall vs Killzone and Infamous. This fall is Forza Horizon, Halo MCC, Project Spark, and Sunset Overdrive vs LBP 3 and Drive Club. Offcourse I am using the biggest name games, ones that can actually qualify as system sellers. I am just saying X1 is doing great so far on big name games.

Go ahead, blame Don Mattrick. I'm sure he was the mastermind that designed everything about the XB1 that people hated. And yet on the PR days, he didn't know enough about the box to know that removing the online requirement was possible. I'm sure MS gave him a nice diamond encrusted golden parachute when he "resigned" and took all the blame.



In this day and age, with the Internet, ignorance is a choice! And they're still choosing Ignorance! - Dr. Filthy Frank

krippaz on 23 June 2014

Well crappy HW for same price as better HW......who wins ?



Dark Chaos on 23 June 2014
S.T.A.G.E. said:
Dark Chaos said:
TheBlackNaruto said:

For instance, if Sony loses a billion dollars while MS profits a billion dollars over the course of the generation. Only Forum dwellers discuss victories based on sales. Real life is based on money firstmost. In addition, I never argued that the PS4 would not be a success rather that I believe both the PS4 and X1 can both become success's in the long run.


Are you saning Sony as a whole or just the PS division and the XB division profits? And to your point it is obvious MS cares about Sony outselling them. Sony is their closest compeitior and they have invested a lot of money into the XB1. If they didn't care they wouldn't have changed so many of their polocies nor would they have cut the price of the XB1 already. So yes they indeed care.

And also case in point in a discusion about X1/PS4 of course people are going to discuss the sales of the two products. Do finaces of the two compaies matter? sure they do! But to they matter when discussing one out selling the other...no....even if it was the reverse. But also yes they can indeed both become a sucess for both companies. 

The thread is not to discuss sales. The thread title assumes the PS4 will outsell the X1 and I agree, however I diasgree on it being a unsucessfull machine. Also, I'm talking about just their gaming divions. 

Their gaming division has been profiting since 2010 and the PS4 has already begun to profit.

Not according to official figures. They lost money the last two years.
http://i.imgur.com/1E9uv0y.png



Dark Chaos on 23 June 2014
jnemesh said:
Dark Chaos said:
DrDoomz said:
I don't get how Sony's stock prices have anything to do with how badly the XBOne is doing vs the PS4 in this generation so far.

Other than bringing in a completely irrelevant talking point, that is. Fox-news style.


It does matter when the Playstation division didn't profit last year and Sony is trimming the fat. The Xbox division proffited. Most of the shareholders don't care if theyre outselling the competition when they continue to lose money.


The Xbox division DIDN'T and HAS NEVER been profitable.  Go re-read the annual earnings report if you doubt me.


They have and I did read it. They profited last year.



Around the Network
S.T.A.G.E. on 23 June 2014
Dark Chaos said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
Dark Chaos said:
TheBlackNaruto said:

For instance, if Sony loses a billion dollars while MS profits a billion dollars over the course of the generation. Only Forum dwellers discuss victories based on sales. Real life is based on money firstmost. In addition, I never argued that the PS4 would not be a success rather that I believe both the PS4 and X1 can both become success's in the long run.


Are you saning Sony as a whole or just the PS division and the XB division profits? And to your point it is obvious MS cares about Sony outselling them. Sony is their closest compeitior and they have invested a lot of money into the XB1. If they didn't care they wouldn't have changed so many of their polocies nor would they have cut the price of the XB1 already. So yes they indeed care.

And also case in point in a discusion about X1/PS4 of course people are going to discuss the sales of the two products. Do finaces of the two compaies matter? sure they do! But to they matter when discussing one out selling the other...no....even if it was the reverse. But also yes they can indeed both become a sucess for both companies. 

The thread is not to discuss sales. The thread title assumes the PS4 will outsell the X1 and I agree, however I diasgree on it being a unsucessfull machine. Also, I'm talking about just their gaming divions. 

Their gaming division has been profiting since 2010 and the PS4 has already begun to profit.

Not according to official figures. They lost money the last two years.


If that happened it was probably because of the PSP Vita, but other than that Sony has two very profitable consoles.



Dark Chaos on 23 June 2014
S.T.A.G.E. said:
Dark Chaos said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
Dark Chaos said:
TheBlackNaruto said:

For instance, if Sony loses a billion dollars while MS profits a billion dollars over the course of the generation. Only Forum dwellers discuss victories based on sales. Real life is based on money firstmost. In addition, I never argued that the PS4 would not be a success rather that I believe both the PS4 and X1 can both become success's in the long run.


Are you saning Sony as a whole or just the PS division and the XB division profits? And to your point it is obvious MS cares about Sony outselling them. Sony is their closest compeitior and they have invested a lot of money into the XB1. If they didn't care they wouldn't have changed so many of their polocies nor would they have cut the price of the XB1 already. So yes they indeed care.

And also case in point in a discusion about X1/PS4 of course people are going to discuss the sales of the two products. Do finaces of the two compaies matter? sure they do! But to they matter when discussing one out selling the other...no....even if it was the reverse. But also yes they can indeed both become a sucess for both companies. 

The thread is not to discuss sales. The thread title assumes the PS4 will outsell the X1 and I agree, however I diasgree on it being a unsucessfull machine. Also, I'm talking about just their gaming divions. 

Their gaming division has been profiting since 2010 and the PS4 has already begun to profit.

Not according to official figures. They lost money the last two years.


If that happened it was probably because of the PSP Vita, but other than that Sony has two very profitable consoles.

So you were arguing with me based on lies???  The Vita doesn't lose them much if any.



eva01beserk on 23 June 2014
sales2099 said:
jnemesh said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
 


The Xbox division is profitable, but the profit is peanuts for Microsoft. The money the gaming industry provides is chump change. Their only reason for even existing is to stop Sony from growing in multimedia.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-11-07-huge-xbox-losses-hidden-by-patent-royalties-says-analyst

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/129463-Microsoft-Loses-2-Billion-Per-Year-On-Xbox-Analyst-Says

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/181337-microsoft-attempts-to-hide-anemic-xbox-one-sales-amid-lackluster-quarterly-earnings

http://bgr.com/2013/11/26/xbox-one-profit-estimate/

I'm sorry, you were saying?  It's pretty blatant that they are losing TONS of money on Xbox.  I don't know where you got the impression that they were profitable, but it's wrong.

1st link - "Estimates" from a analyst. Which are not expalined how he got them.

2nd link - Same news as the 1st link, you tried to pass it off like it is seperate. lol

3rd link - Just talks about PS4 outselling XB1, but gives no concrete information on Xbox losing money.

4th link - Same as the 1st and 2nd link news.

MS quarterly results since 2008 have shown that the Xbox division makes a profit. 360 profit now helps pad X1 losses.

what good can it do to show proof if fans take everithing as slander, trolling, hating, or anything and just ignore everithing. if you dont belive the sources he provided show him hes wrong and show your own sources.



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

Dark Chaos on 23 June 2014
eva01beserk said:
sales2099 said:

1st link - "Estimates" from a analyst. Which are not expalined how he got them.

2nd link - Same news as the 1st link, you tried to pass it off like it is seperate. lol

3rd link - Just talks about PS4 outselling XB1, but gives no concrete information on Xbox losing money.

4th link - Same as the 1st and 2nd link news.

MS quarterly results since 2008 have shown that the Xbox division makes a profit. 360 profit now helps pad X1 losses.

what good can it do to show proof if fans take everithing as slander, trolling, hating, or anything and just ignore everithing. if you dont belive the sources he provided show him hes wrong and show your own sources.

Showing Proof would mean Facts and not opinions based on some anaylst. Proof is numbers straight from MS.

Here this is facts:



eva01beserk on 23 June 2014
Dark Chaos said:
eva01beserk said:
sales2099 said:

1st link - "Estimates" from a analyst. Which are not expalined how he got them.

2nd link - Same news as the 1st link, you tried to pass it off like it is seperate. lol

3rd link - Just talks about PS4 outselling XB1, but gives no concrete information on Xbox losing money.

4th link - Same as the 1st and 2nd link news.

MS quarterly results since 2008 have shown that the Xbox division makes a profit. 360 profit now helps pad X1 losses.

what good can it do to show proof if fans take everithing as slander, trolling, hating, or anything and just ignore everithing. if you dont belive the sources he provided show him hes wrong and show your own sources.

Showing Proof would mean Facts and not opinions based on some anaylst. Proof is numbers straight from MS.

Here this is facts:

this is income. they can sale 5 consoles a year and it will show here. these are half the fact that they want you to see, and if they avoid showing all the facts then the predictions from analist are just as good proof as anything. these numbers dont mean anything without next to it we see a board of all the expenses. 

Including

manufactoring cost.

total production next to total sales.

the cost for R&D.

salary for all the division.

PR cost.

there are many more but i cant think of them wright now. I will not denie the there is no doubt that for 2 of thouse years it had to be profitable just looking at the high income.  



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.