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Forums - Politics Discussion - What does Putin want with Ukraine

 

What is his end state

Annex Ukraine As a whole 337 40.60%
 
Annex Crimea 286 34.46%
 
Defend Russian People Fro... 184 22.17%
 
Total:807

BTW, Crimea parlament just made a desicion. 16th of March will be referendum, so people of Crimea wil decide, if they stay in Ukraine on join Russian Federation.



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Mnementh said:
Kasz216 said:
 


They were Ukranian Cossacks....

It was an independent Ukranian state, that was comprised mostly of the Ukraine.  That makes it a Ukranian state.

LOL, that sounds desperate. So the Apache-nation was an US-nationality, because it was on the territory that later became the US. Sounds legit. :D

Yes.   Well depending on whether or not you consider the current Apache run areas as nations.  (I don't.)

Of course you also have to consider that most geneologists believe the Kossacks do descend from native Ukrainians at least in part.  



Good one on the snipers...
http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-secretive-neo-nazi-military-organization-involved-in-euromaidan-snyper-shootings/5371611



ultima said:
Kasz216 said:
ultima said:

So wait, the leaks are fake because of the email address? Because, you know, that'd be a very easy thing to change for the leakers. So that's a suspiciously dumb mistake (if it is one), considering they actually used a plausible domain for Klitschko. Are you also one of the people that deny US involvement in the Orange Revolution?

Russia actually has territory on the Black Sea. So the assertion that Crimea is the only place for their fleet is false. Especially when one takes into account the lease into 204X, which gives Russia plenty of time to develop a base in their own territory. Also, talk of Russia not wanting Ukraine in the Customs Union is nonsense. There have been many talks within Russia and Ukraine of that happening.

It's unfair to blame current Russia for the deeds of the Soviet government. Holodomor happened before WWII; is it fair to blame current Germany for things done by the Nazis? Regardless of what you (and many others) say, Russia has been a very good ally to Ukraine.

The Leakers are just Anoynymous Ukraine.  So just regular internet people really.  So yeah.  It was a dumb mistake.  It's not an unheard of thing, the Ukrainian people who linked it probably just didn't know anything about Lithuinian email addresses except what the popular one was, because they also tried, but failed to make some inroads in the Ukraine.

It wasn't some diliberate russian propaganda move.  Just someone from the intenret who favored one side making up a fake email.   

You really can't see just how  huge a gaping problem that internet it?

Maybe they can leak some conversations next betweek Klitchko and Obama, from his BHObama@Gmail.com email address.

 

As for the Orange revolution... the results of the second election showed the protestors were fully in the right.  So I'm not quite sure what the big complaint is there.

 

And no.  Russia really doesn't have anywhere else to put the black sea fleet.  Why the hell else would they station it in a foreign nation? 

Eventually they'll have a base built in Novorossiysk... even then it's a much poorer location then Sevestapool.  

and again... that 42 year lease means, nothing.  Since it was made under the deposed president.

So let me rephrase.  Crimea is far more important to Russia then the rest of the Ukraine.  They need it.

 

...and no.  Russia has pretty much always been the same to the Ukraine.

Terrible, and unwilling to let it actually stretch it's own wings...pretty much threatening it in various ways anyway it's tried to establish some independence.

Yeah, because it's really hard to google things, right? Also, government officials may never have other email addresses, right? Especially a country like Lithuania, with a lot of enemies wanting to get their greedy claws on their secrets. Hey, I'm not conclusively stating that the leaks were legit; however, the reason you give to refute them is horrible.

About Orange Revolution: the point is not that it may have been warranted (in addition, it being warranted is debatable). The point is that US was involved in the domestic issues of Ukraine. So claims of current involvement are not as outrageous as you try to make them out to be.

Why is the Black Sea Fleet stationed in Chrimea? Because that's where it's been historically, since 18th or 19th centry. They had the infrastructure there, and Russia did not have the funds to relocate after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. A naval base is not something you can load on a truck and move to a different location. Is that not obvious?

And Russia has been terrible to Ukraine? Really?

And check that out: EU approved a $15B loan to Ukraine now. There goes your justification of previous EU offers. This says two things: EU had the money to cough up and that EU is more willing to help out the current renegade government, that was able to come to power thanks to street thugs who hired snipers and blamed the murders on the democratically elected officials.

1) You've given no reasons why the emails aren't legit, just why the people who made them made really stupid mistakes in faking them.

2)  Except during the Orange Revolution, the US and EU were upfront about it through people who trained non-violent protestors.   That's a whole lot different then what's going on here.

3) So you more or less made my point for me on the need for Sevestapool.  You say they can move the base, but that they couldn't move the base now, because it takes time and money.   So if the Kiev government decides to invaldiate the Russians and kick out the Black Fleet... then what?

 

4)  Yes.  Russia has been terrible to the Ukraine.   That should be a fairly undeniable statement.  Outside which, did you look at the EU offer?  It's the same as the Greece offer... and the previous offer basically.

Some money upfront with further conditions.

So, it doesn't change anything, accept putting out a big number that better explains that money will be there if the Ukrainian government actually reforms it's economy.

 



Mnementh said:

Sharu said:No. I have some pieces of info pointing on it, but no proof.

By the way, do you have any proof that Yanukovich ordered snipers to shoot people?

Oh no, the unfaillable west and the maidan claimed that the snipers were from Yanukovich. That does not need to be proofed, just beli3ve!!!!

If you have some points that pointstoward another explanation (as unearthed), that is not enough to beat the claims of the West. You have to provide proof, and double that. Because the western government never ever lie or claim stuff without evidence. Like WMDs in Iraq.

I'm guessing you don't know much about the whole WMD's in iraq thing outside the fact that there weren't any there, if you think the Sharu/West is behind everything statements remotely are the same.

There was plenty of evidence pointing to Iraq having WMDs.  Just none of it ended up being true.  The Bush administration more or less got taken in by info they wanted to believe provided by third parties, while ignore other information.

It's a much more fascinating story then simply "Bush made up some stuff".



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In the end, this is what will happen: Ukraine won't react with their military because they are far inferior to Russian forces. US and EU won't defend them military because it would be crazy to start a war against Russia only to defend Ukraine (let's be honest, if Russia invaded and ocupied them, nobody would move a single troop because of that). 

US threatened them with economic sanctions. But they are alone in that since EU won't do it. They depend of the Russian natural gas and, in 2006, Russia already just closed the valves and let EU without gas just because they wanted to give a lesso to Ukraine (that gets a percentage of the gas sales profit, since the pipes pass through their territory). So sanctions won't help.

The problem is simply militar. It's similar to the China/North Korea situation. When NK started doing nuclear tests, the US wanted to intervene, basically the entire OTAN wanted it. China didn't want it. Why? Because if that happened, the OTAN would ocuppy the country. And it would become a militar base for the US in China's borderline. For China, it's better to have the crazy anti-US dictator there than an US militar base right in their backyard. They won't go as far as defending NK, but will try to stop any intervention. That is similar to Ukraine's situation. The new government is pro-US. Russia don't want to lose a coutry it influences that is right in their backyard. The recent US$ 1 B loan from US probably only made things worse. Putin know that Ukraine will become a closer ally to US and EU. So the new plan is to separate Crimea, so they will still have a militar base in the middle (Crimea is full of Russians anyway). They will simulate a full scale invasion just to go to the negotiation table in the end and declare Crimea an independent country. Of course, they will want some deal about the gas pipes, in a way they can't get screwed by Ukraine and maybe they will think in some things to make more difficult for Ukraine to get closer to US and EU.   

 

Danman27 said:

Not really. The UNA is just a pawn of the US in most cases. They don't really have much power. The USA is the only country that's considered a super power by most scholars. Most believe that China, India, EU, and Russia may become super powers in the 21st century. 

UN is a pawn for the 5 security concil member. US started to want to end the North Korea problem, China vetoed it. Syria was the same thing but with Russian vetoing. 

 

Sharu said:
BTW, Crimea parlament just made a desicion. 16th of March will be referendum, so people of Crimea wil decide, if they stay in Ukraine on join Russian Federation.

That would be the most reasonable method.



Kasz216 said:
Mnementh said:

Sharu said:No. I have some pieces of info pointing on it, but no proof.

By the way, do you have any proof that Yanukovich ordered snipers to shoot people?

Oh no, the unfaillable west and the maidan claimed that the snipers were from Yanukovich. That does not need to be proofed, just beli3ve!!!!

If you have some points that pointstoward another explanation (as unearthed), that is not enough to beat the claims of the West. You have to provide proof, and double that. Because the western government never ever lie or claim stuff without evidence. Like WMDs in Iraq.

I'm guessing you don't know much about the whole WMD's in iraq thing outside the fact that there weren't any there, if you think the Sharu/West is behind everything statements remotely are the same.

There was plenty of evidence pointing to Iraq having WMDs.  Just none of it ended up being true.  The Bush administration more or less got taken in by info they wanted to believe provided by third parties, while ignore other information.

It's a much more fascinating story then simply "Bush made up some stuff".

LOL, I guess you don't know much about the missing EWMD-thing. There was ONE source, and the reliability of that source was already doubted internally in secret services. Even with public information at the time it was pretty unlikely the Iraq had WMDs. Most sane people were pointing to the missing proofs and even indications towards this theory. At the time was an official UN-inspection already running - instead of waiting for a result the war was started.

The Bush-administration was all aware of it, but ignored it to have a pretty thin reason to go to war. But the claim the Iraq had WMDs was as believable as now Putins claim the unmarked soldiers in crimea are not russian. In europe (except UK) the war against iraq wasn't justified with WMDs, as even our leaders didn't thought that anyone would buy that here.



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Sharu said:
BTW, Crimea parlament just made a desicion. 16th of March will be referendum, so people of Crimea wil decide, if they stay in Ukraine on join Russian Federation.


Which more or less proves my point.

 

The wisest move for the Ukraine would be to just let national pride take a hit, let Russia have Crimea and it's naval base and work doublespeed towards Europeon Union/NATO integration



torok said: 
Sharu said:
BTW, Crimea parlament just made a desicion. 16th of March will be referendum, so people of Crimea wil decide, if they stay in Ukraine on join Russian Federation.

That would be the most reasonable method.

It's always the sane decision to let the people decide upon their own future instead of corrupt leaders. And let not lie to ourself: the leaders involved are all corrupt, it doesn't matter which side they are on in this conflict.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

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10 years greatest game event!

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Mnementh said:
torok said: 
Sharu said:
BTW, Crimea parlament just made a desicion. 16th of March will be referendum, so people of Crimea wil decide, if they stay in Ukraine on join Russian Federation.

That would be the most reasonable method.

It's always the sane decision to let the people decide upon their own future instead of corrupt leaders. And let not lie to ourself: the leaders involved are all corrupt, it doesn't matter which side they are on in this conflict.


Of course. I just fear that Russians won't accept peoples decision if it doesn't come as they expect it.