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Forums - Sony - VG247: PS4's architecture offers more customisation than PC, says Cerny

I really don't want to get into this discussion very much, seems like a mess. This particular line caught my interest, though.

biglittlesps said:

I rather take exclusive games made by many great developers than modes in PC games which is only to have fun/high details and waste time instead of experience the game in different gameplays.

Many indie games are exclusive to PC so your point is invalid, and indie games are usually the ones that offer completely new experiences. PC gaming offers a lot more variety by default because it's an open platform. Consoles have the advantage only in high-profile, high-budget games, and those are the ones that usually offer the least innovation and new experiences. Also, I see you have never tried a mod, because while mods can offer smaller changes like you described, they can also change the experience completely. Oblivion is an example I have lots of experience with, and the game was made a lot better by mods, and it was made better by making it different in some key areas.



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biglittlesps said:

Can PC gets exclusive games created by the top develpers from the console Like naughty dog, santa monica, media molucules, quantic dreams etc.,?

I rather take exclusive games made by many great developers than modes in PC games which is only to have fun/high details and waste time instead of experience the game in different gameplays.

Also i don't want to waste my money in system upgrades every year, so I willing to support the developers of the games in consoles who are really working hard for giving great experiences. Always gamplay/story is more important than game graphics.


If you mean exclusives that are full of "Press A to win". Then no, that's not my idea of fun.
However, the PC does have big AAA exclusives, but a quick google can tell you that easily enough.

Unlike the consoles however, the PC is under going a kind-of "game revolution".
For years Publishers like EA, Activision, Ubisoft neglected the PC. - Valve and Blizzard continued to do really well as PC-centric developers and sell 10 million+ copies of games.
However if you hadn't noticed over the past year or so this "thing" called Kickstarter arrived and now PC gamers are voting for games with their wallets, games like Star Citizen and Planetary Annihilation have raked in the Millions for development budgets, greedy publishers get kicked out of the way, gamers get great games.
No more generic-stuff shoved down our necks.

As for upgrading every year? If you are gaming at only 1080P, then no. You don't have to upgrade every year or even every two years.
People still use Radeon 5870's which are what, 3-4 years old? Just fine.
People still use Core 2 Quads, overclock them a little and even after 6-7 years are capable of playing the latest games.

biglittlesps said:

How many people can afford 4k TV's today?  How many people can affoord an 1000$ console that does 4k gaming? Do you know how much time its needed for doing 4k games? Also the prices of the games needs to be increased by atleast 20% and the games needs to sell well otherwise the developers will be brankrupt.

The point is not how many people can afford a 4k TV today, but how many can afford a 4k TV tomorrow? Technology does get cheaper over time, who knows how cheap they will be in a couple of years!
It's a chicken and egg scenario, if no one builds it, no one will support it, someone has to make the first move and if the consoles were a little more forward thinking and made the first move, then all would have been fine in the world.

Also, 4k is just a resolution, developers don't design games with my resolution (7680x1440) in mind, yet I can run games at that level, didn't take any development time away did it?

biglittlesps said:


you can't get games made for PS3/PS4 on PC in another 10 years through emulators even we're unable to emulate PSP very well so far and I that doubt PS3 will never be emulated. 

If you really want to get great games coming then you have to support the developers in Consoles because PC sales aren't going to save them and its just only some extra cash that they're getting. Look at the sales of the recent games bioshockt infinite and Tomb raider then compare it with Last of US sales in PS3, you see PC is not helping developers much and its just an small addition.

If you like a game then buy it at the full price, if you can't afford then look for second hand game otherwise wait for 3-6 months and you'll get at resonable price but don't go with PC because its the platform with piracy and less sales always.

What is this, I don't even.

Some games sell better on PC than they do on consoles, it's the developers/publishers fault, not the platform.
There is a reason why League of Legends and Dota are some of the worlds most played games, the developers knew what gamers wanted.

But if you want to get into sales...
Diablo 3, sold what 15 million copies?
Half Life 2 sold about 12-15 million copies.
Minecraft is 11 million copies.
The Sims franchise has sold about 100 million copies.
Dota and League of Legends has 10's of millions of players.
World of WarCraft is over 9,000.

So I reiterate, it's not the platforms fault or even the gamers, people are obviously willing to part with their cash.

ethomaz said:

PC is not a stable platform and it won't be ever... you need always fix something in the PC (or format like "casual" uses pay to do)... you have errors messages everything with drivers issues and games not running like they are supposed to run.

Always fix something? Have you used a PC? I haven't formatted my PC in years, we aren't in the days of Windows 9x where ejecting a CD/DVD that is being accessed will crash the entire system.
Heck, I took my SSD out of my old AMD system with Windows on it and dropped it into my main Intel system when I built it, trouble free, no reformat or reinstall of windows required for me personally.

ethomaz said:

And fixed hardware, close to metal is better for developers than what PC have... there are advantages and disadvantages in both sides but in a developer point the first is better.

I never disputed the close-to-the-metal approach being better, I just said it's not wise to do it on the PC for blatantly obvious reasons.

ethomaz said:

You can uses everything for game development that exists on PC to PS4... you can even make a game using MS Visual Studio with DirectX (any DirectX version to date) to run on PS4.

Alright, go Install Direct X on the PS4, without modding it or Installing Windows. Right, you won't ever be able to, closed environment that's incredibly restricted.
I certainly can't grab a PS4 off the shelf and start making a game that's for sure.

ethomaz said:

So you can uses almost all Windows, Unix (Linux and BSD * BSD means Mac OS too *), etc tools, APIs, etc created for x86_64 and compatible with AMD GPUs on PS4.

Even ones that require certain Windows libraries? ;) The PS4 doesn't run Windows remember.

ethomaz said:

Bonaire is the GCN 1.0 with some new microarchitecture implements.

+ HSA (PS4 have it... the Unified Memory is HSA)
+ ACEs / Queues (PS4 have even more... we are talking about GCN 2.0 in PS4 here 8:8 instead 2:2)
+ New version of PowerTune (I think the PS3 power manegement is even better than PowerTune... thanks fixed hardware)

Bonaire is GCN 1.1.
Do you even know what the ACE's do?
PC's power management is superior, why? Because I can alter it personally.

 

ethomaz said:

 

Fermi is not suprerior in F64 than Kepler... nVidia just limited this feature in the PC games based chip models... the Tesla based in Kepler is more powerful in F64 than Fermi (the Titan GPU and new GTX 700 are based in that Kepler).

Ugh. Depending on usage, yes Fermi is superior to Kepler for compute scenarios because of FP64, we are talking Desktop chips here, Tesla is Server.




www.youtube.com/@Pemalite

BasilZero said:
biglittlesps said:


you can't get games made for PS3/PS4 on PC in another 10 years through emulators even we're unable to emulate PSP very well so far and I that doubt PS3 will never be emulated. 

If you really want to get great games coming then you have to support the developers in Consoles because PC sales aren't going to save them and its just only some extra cash that they're getting. Look at the sales of the recent games bioshockt infinite and Tomb raider then compare it with Last of US sales in PS3, you see PC is not helping developers much and its just an small addition.

If you like a game then buy it at the full price, if you can't afford then look for second hand game otherwise wait for 3-6 months and you'll get at resonable price but don't go with PC because its the platform with piracy and less sales always.


You actually took that part in my post about emulation seriously....l0l

PC sales arent saving them or helping them better put it? Do you have proof of that? Proof that digital sales are less than physical sales or non-existant?

If what you say is true, then why do third parties still continue to support PC gaming. If PC gaming is killing their sales, I wonder why they keep releasing titles on PC.

And to the last bit of statement...

I dont buy games at full price, its not even worth it when you can easily get games for cheaper within a year or in some cases within a few weeks or so - or even in the form of GOTY editions which consists of DLCs which cost additional money along with the full price of the game - and I dont buy used games/second hand games cause I like my games new (and I dont sell my games either).

And telling someone to not go PC cause of piracy and less sales? How do you know its less sales? So are you telling me that PS3/Xbox360 didnt have any piracy at all? Google can point you to a lot of sites that will prove you wrong lol.

Anyways, I'm sorry to be brutally honest but when I buy games - support for the developer/publisher is the least of my worries. I look out for decent prices/sales before purchasing my games or systems because in the end I'm buying games to play and enjoy games - not to support anyone o.O - as cold as that sounds because I'm a consumer and not a vivid pure supporter of any one brand or franchise as far as monetary concerns - corporations dont need me to worry about them - they've got financial advisors for that.

The most expensive game I've purchased on PS3 was my recent purchase of a new copy of Tales of Graces F for $43. I have yet to buy anything over that price and doubt I will do anytime soon.

I'm not saying you shouldnt buy games for consoles, there are pros and cons for different platforms - all I'm saying in the end is, dont tell me what not to buy friend :)

Sorry I did not mean to offend you or anything, i just wanted you to support developers by buying games for consoles at full price only if you like that game, if you/many of us don't support the developers then they won't risk in creating games so we won't get new experiences. Its upto you and i just recommended so you don't have to listen to me if it doesn't make sense.

 

"If what you say is true, then why do third parties still continue to support PC gaming. If PC gaming is killing their sales, I wonder why they keep releasing titles on PC."

Third party Developers makes games for PC because its been sponsored by AMD and Nvidia mostly for selling their GPU's. Can't you see the logo AMD Gaming evovled and Nvidia its meant to played in AAA games? 

Also PC never brought the gaming to more people and its the consoles which brought more innovation and access to gaming to more people in an affordable price.

 



GAMING is not about spending hours to pass/waste our time just for fun,

its a Feeling/Experience about a VIRTUAL WORLD we can never be in real, and realizing some of our dreams (also creating new ones).

So, Feel Emotions, Experience Adventure/Action, Challenge Game, Solve puzzles and Have fun.

PlayStation is about all-round "New experiences" using new IP's to provide great diversity for everyone.

Xbox is always about Online and Shooting.

Nintendo is always about Fun games and milking IP's.

Zkuq said:

I really don't want to get into this discussion very much, seems like a mess. This particular line caught my interest, though.

biglittlesps said:

I rather take exclusive games made by many great developers than modes in PC games which is only to have fun/high details and waste time instead of experience the game in different gameplays.

Many indie games are exclusive to PC so your point is invalid, and indie games are usually the ones that offer completely new experiences. PC gaming offers a lot more variety by default because it's an open platform. Consoles have the advantage only in high-profile, high-budget games, and those are the ones that usually offer the least innovation and new experiences. Also, I see you have never tried a mod, because while mods can offer smaller changes like you described, they can also change the experience completely. Oblivion is an example I have lots of experience with, and the game was made a lot better by mods, and it was made better by making it different in some key areas.

I was talking about AAA titles mostly, however as you're saying indie now almost every indie title is coming to PS4 because of new rules from Sony where they can sell and earn more than PC because Consoles have many users than PC.

But, indie titles can't tell the story and make us involved more than AAA titles like God of War, Last of US, Beyond two souls, Knack etc., and also most of us have limited time for playing games due to life and job so having few AAA titles is better than Hundreds of Indie games.

Regarding mods and PC, i think this is pointless to consier since it cannot be experienced by most of the people because they can't afford to buy the systems which cost atleat 500-800$ and needs regular upgrades to the hardware to play future games(due to poor optimization) and installation of new drivers to get it working etc., howerver still we have bugs/crashes more than Consoles in PC.

I'm talking about a product which can reach wider audience(consoles are affordable for this) not narrower audience(PC can do this).



GAMING is not about spending hours to pass/waste our time just for fun,

its a Feeling/Experience about a VIRTUAL WORLD we can never be in real, and realizing some of our dreams (also creating new ones).

So, Feel Emotions, Experience Adventure/Action, Challenge Game, Solve puzzles and Have fun.

PlayStation is about all-round "New experiences" using new IP's to provide great diversity for everyone.

Xbox is always about Online and Shooting.

Nintendo is always about Fun games and milking IP's.

Pemalite said:

Always fix something? Have you used a PC? I haven't formatted my PC in years, we aren't in the days of Windows 9x where ejecting a CD/DVD that is being accessed will crash the entire system.
Heck, I took my SSD out of my old AMD system with Windows on it and dropped it into my main Intel system when I built it, trouble free, no reformat or reinstall of windows required for me personally.

I work with PC remember? I'm a developer... and yes you have a lot of trouble with PC... my mon and brother are casual users and they had everytime... it is not stable.

Pemalite said:

Alright, go Install Direct X on the PS4, without modding it or Installing Windows. Right, you won't ever be able to, closed environment that's incredibly restricted.
I certainly can't grab a PS4 off the shelf and start making a game that's for sure.

You don't need to install DirectX on PS4... there are wrappers for that... you develop a DirectX game and it will run on PS4... of course at the cost of some overhead.

But at the end you don't need to change your DirectX game to run on PS4... you get you DirectX game and just compile using the wrapper plugin to PS4 ... every single DirectX instruction is converted by the wrapper to PS4 instruction.

And yes... you need the PS4 DevKit to run the games in PS4 not to develop them.... you can develop for PC/Windows and run on PS4 DevKit after.

Pemalite said:

Even ones that require certain Windows libraries? ;) The PS4 doesn't run Windows remember.

What specific libraries? The DirectX (using wrapper plugin) and OpenGL (native) ones are full supported by PS4 DevKit...

Pemalite said:

Bonaire is GCN 1.1.
Do you even know what the ACE's do?
PC's power management is superior, why? Because I can alter it personally.

It's not... the latest AMD ISA document didn't say that... AMD didn't give a archicteture name for Bonaire... reviews site are calling it GCN 1.1.

Yeap... in a easy way ACEs are schedules units for computer tanks... PS4 can schedule 4x more computer tasks than Bonaire... in fact the PS4 can do the same number than what is found into AMD GCN 2.0 ISA document... that means more efficiency in the execution of compute code when you don't need to wait others tasks finish to run more code (if you have GPU units free of course)... the same applies to Queue Pipelines (PS4 have 8 too compared with 2 of Bonaire).

PC power management is more flexible not superior... the PS4 one is better for what is designed... so the power consumption is better managed.

Pemalite said:

Ugh. Depending on usage, yes Fermi is superior to Kepler for compute scenarios because of FP64, we are talking Desktop chips here, Tesla is Server.

We are talking about architecture... what I can do if nVidia limits by driver (software... they limit the clock for FP64) the FP64 performance of GeForce Titan/780 compared to Teslas... they uses the same GK110... you can change that (mod) so the FP64 clock run like Tesla (the same than core clock).



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biglittlesps said:
Zkuq said:

I really don't want to get into this discussion very much, seems like a mess. This particular line caught my interest, though.

biglittlesps said:

I rather take exclusive games made by many great developers than modes in PC games which is only to have fun/high details and waste time instead of experience the game in different gameplays.

Many indie games are exclusive to PC so your point is invalid, and indie games are usually the ones that offer completely new experiences. PC gaming offers a lot more variety by default because it's an open platform. Consoles have the advantage only in high-profile, high-budget games, and those are the ones that usually offer the least innovation and new experiences. Also, I see you have never tried a mod, because while mods can offer smaller changes like you described, they can also change the experience completely. Oblivion is an example I have lots of experience with, and the game was made a lot better by mods, and it was made better by making it different in some key areas.

I was talking about AAA titles mostly, however as you're saying indie now almost every indie title is coming to PS4 because of new rules from Sony where they can sell and earn more than PC because Consoles have many users than PC.

But, indie titles can't tell the story and make us involved more than AAA titles like God of War, Last of US, Beyond two souls, Knack etc., and also most of us have limited time for playing games due to life and job so having few AAA titles is better than Hundreds of Indie games.

There will never be even nearly as many indie games on consoles, it's just impossible as long as consoles have any kind of an approval process. Indie games flourish on PC because it's so easy to release them on PC, and it will ever be equally easy to release them on consoles. You're somewhat right about stories though, albeit even that's not completely true. There's no reason why indie titles couldn't get you involved, often they just choose to focus on the core value of gaming, which is gameplay. Besides, more and more often these days these so-called AAA titles imitate either movies, TV series, or books so much that I'm better off watch movies or TV series or reading books than I'm playing games if I want a story that gets me involved. But anyway, there's lots of indie games that'll tell you a story and make you involved, I'm sure.

Also, who's saying instead of playing a few AAA titles has to be replaced my hundred of indie games? You could just, you know, play a few indie games. And then there's the thing that most AAA titles also come to PC, so for the most part, you won't miss much if you play on PC only.

It's kind of funny that originally you spoke about different gameplay experiences, then when I show you there's lots more gameplay variety on PC, you start talking about stories and getting involved and how much little most people have on their hands. The funny thing is, most console games play very much the same in the sense that if you know how to play one, you almost instantly know how to play another. Not only that, you'll also be pretty good in no time because the games have so similar rulesets.



ethomaz said:

Pemalite said:

Always fix something? Have you used a PC? I haven't formatted my PC in years, we aren't in the days of Windows 9x where ejecting a CD/DVD that is being accessed will crash the entire system.
Heck, I took my SSD out of my old AMD system with Windows on it and dropped it into my main Intel system when I built it, trouble free, no reformat or reinstall of windows required for me personally.

I work with PC remember? I'm a developer... and yes you have a lot of trouble with PC... my mon and brother are casual users and they had everytime... it is not stable.

my current build is some years old and i never had to fix anything. 



crissindahouse said:

my current build is some years old and i never had to fix anything.

You have lucky because most of users needs... the supports forums, chats and phone lines are always occuped with users... even for games you need to install new drivers to fix things and sometimes these drives create new issues.

You install a software that makes your windows get errors... or your software didn't works with your windows... your hardware support didn't have the best driver or always lakcs something.

Everything is relative... the PC have a lot of issues... is far far far away from stable.



Pemalite said:
ethomaz said:
Pemalite said:
What a load of crap, that's the only polite way I can say it. :P

Why? What he said is true... the changes didn't exists in PC yet.


It isn't true, they're advertising.
Like Microsoft claiming the Xbox One provides "Super Computing" levels of performance.
Both claims are laughable at best.

I'll be impressed when the consoles can do 4k resolution gaming, which is still 20-30% less pixels than my current set-up.

How much did your current set-up cost?



ethomaz said:

crissindahouse said:

my current build is some years old and i never had to fix anything.

You have lucky because most of users needs... the supports forums, chats and phone lines are always occuped with users.

no i'm not lucky, the other guys just do something wrong...or they have complicated settings with multiple monitors and bla...

i'm obviously not talking about driver updates you should do from time to time but that's not really a problem even with my slow interent.