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Forums - Microsoft - Cloud Computing - Xbox One developers team up with NASA to simulate 35 thousand light years of space

http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-US-Air-Force-Purchased-2-200-PlayStation-3-Consoles-127848.shtml

Didn't make PS3 a better console, don't see how that's different for Xbone



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disolitude said:
Slimebeast said:
disolitude said:


1. Its never been utilized on this scale with the type of cloud computing performance currently achievable by Azure

2. Internet is a lot faster today than in the 1990s.

3. Xbox One is designed with cloud computing in mind. According to the article it checks 500,000 times per second for cloud updates

Seriously though, Quake 3 bots used servers to calculate their AI. This idea isn't anything new. What is new is scale and design around it.

Also the fact its offered to everyone at no cost makes it the staus quo on the Xbox One side. Not so much on the Sony's end where a company like EA is still going to have to run their own servers, and shut them down when games arent popular...and not utilize the cloud whenever absolutely necessary in order to save cost. 

Why would it check that often? It doesn't make any sense to spam the internet connection with 500k calls per second, not when latency issues are in the 100's of milliseconds. I smell BS.

I could believe 500 calls per second, not 500,000. Isn't that speed almost as fast as the CPU cycle? I call total BS.

You believe in cloud computing with Xbone making a difference in games. I hope it is true but I just can't believe in it. I am tired of heaing promises and wishes without proof.

I don't know why it would check 500K times. And it does seem a little high...but the article says so. 

I personally don't think it will revolutionize gaming graphics, but that we may see more complex things like 10,000 zombies on screen in Dead Rising 3 all with a different AI behaviour. Little things like that it will change, not sure if that will be revolutionaryor not...

In terms of this being BS, looking at Microsofts track record, they usually deliver what they promise.

Sony tends to overpromise... Remember when PS2 was supposed to have CGI graphics equal to Toy Story? Or when PS3 was supposed to be more powerful than supercomputers with best GPUs. Or when PS3 was supposed to have 2 HDMI outs and support dual screns thanks to the awesome power of the cell.  Killzone 2 anyone...etc

Well now it sounds more reasonable. Those are reasonable expectations.

Yes, Sony tends to overpromise, but it's also a behaviour MS can't afford.

Sony has much more trusting and loyal fans.



disolitude said:
Slimebeast said:
disolitude said:
Slimebeast said:

No.

Milo was a proof of concept about possibly cool stuff working with an actual product (kinect).

This 35 light years space sim is a proof of concept about possibly cool stuff working with an actual product (cloud).

Don't tell me you are buying into the hype twice?


Space sim with Xbox One = proof of concept

Games utilizing cloud computing  = true since the 1990s

Microsoft Azure being one the best cloud services available = true

Xbox One offering free Azure based cloud computing for all Xbox one devs = fact

Devs utilizing cloud computing on Xbox one in games being released this year = fact

I am not sure what hype there is to buy. 

So it only gets worse. If games have been utilizing cloud computing since the freaking 90's, but we as gamers evidently don't feel any important results from it, then what else is this Microsoft cloud computing talk than empty marketing words without any tangible effect on the ground?


1. Its never been utilized on this scale with the type of cloud computing performance currently achievable by Azure

2. Internet is a lot faster today than in the 1990s.

3. Xbox One is designed with cloud computing in mind. According to the article it checks 500,000 times per second for cloud updates

Seriously though, Quake 3 bots used servers to calculate their AI. This idea isn't anything new. What is new is scale and design around it.

Also the fact its offered to everyone at no cost makes it the staus quo on the Xbox One side. Not so much on the Sony's end where a company like EA is still going to have to run their own servers, and shut them down when games arent popular...and not utilize the cloud whenever absolutely necessary in order to save cost. 


500000 times per second  1 second is 1000 miliseconds or ms. So 1000 updates per second would mean 1 update each milisecond So its basically checking in every 2 microseconds for updates ?  Isnt that impossible ? 

 

Whats new about it is nothing right now, we have seen NOTHING. The power of the cloud is UNPROVEN could just aswell be Milo 2.0. Atleast we had an example Video with Milo how this fantasy could look like one day.  MS needs to do something we havent seen before that actually can not work without cloud or else its all worthless PR talk.



Netyaroze said:

500000 times per second  1 second is 1000 miliseconds or ms. So 1000 updates per second would mean 1 update each milisecond So its basically checking in every 2 microseconds for updates ?  Isnt that impossible ?

Impossible... maybe possible in 100 years lol



Why would you even post this marketing / pr bunkum? This is just an advertising move, and MSFT either gave them the XB1's joined to gether to make a supercomputer (for free) or paid NASA to accept some "work" so that a nice article could be written. Same goes for similar PS4 stuff, just thought that you knew better than to be impressed by this kind of thing...



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@ethomaz Loll your connection sucks big time..... I haven't had a latency over 50ms in ages if I'm not behind my vpn... and even behind a vpn located in Manhattan (I'm in eastern France) I'm between 100-150ms



endimion said:
@ethomaz Loll your connection sucks big time..... I haven't had a latency over 50ms in ages if I'm not behind my vpn... and even behind a vpn located in Manhattan (I'm in eastern France) I'm between 100-150ms

What I can do lol... in fact I was over the IBM VPM.

Better now? Google is a great server for me because I have direct access to backbone where the google's servers are located... it is by far the best ping I have here (from the I site I tested).

Now a external server...



ethomaz said:

Machiavellian said:

1) The streaming games are 720p@30fps due internet restrictions... to 1080p@60fps you will need a internet that 99% of the users in the world haven't yet.

I do not understand what you are saying.  Netfix MS video service and many more can stream a 1080p compressed video, why would MS not be able to steam the game in 1080p at 30FPS.  Who said they needed to steam at 60FPS??

2) The issue with Cloud computing never was the server... I said Azure can have billions servers but your internet won't change.

are you sure about that because I am old enough to remember using 2400 baud modems to connect t the net.  Even when I went to DSL and experience 200ms pings with 1.2 down.  Now today you get fiber, and most major cities have 100mbs down or better.  Simes like the net is changing.

PS. MS already said every Cloud based game will works without internet WITHOUT CLOUD... the exceptio is for the online multiplayer.

I believe you are not understanding what I am saying.  I am talking about MS using their Cloud services like GaiKai to render the game video and send it to the client.  In such a scenerio, you have to use the cloud all the time.  There is nothing stopping MS or a developer for going down this route where internet connection is required.  It would not be any different from playing a MMo or a service like Onlive.

Ok... here we go.

1) OnLive official response (and sorry my mistaked... they stream games at maximum 720p@60fps).

"Today we have a target of 720p at 60 frames per second. The nature of the codec means we sometimes soften things a little bit depending on the state of the network. But if you give us a bigger pipe we can go to 1080p, do 3D. At the backend we already have the technology to do this. At the front-end it’s all down to the networks."

http://onlivefans.com/news/onlive-is-capable-of-1080p-and-3d-but-networks-apparently-are-not/6104/

The servers can do 1080p@60fps and even 3D but the Network that I'm using "internet connection" can't.

2)  The latencies never changes... what changed is the internet spped... now you can transfer a lot more than your old modem... but you know latencies is caused by how much time a data package needs to go from a point (server) to another (cliente)... It is physical distances... like a Server here in Brasil have a better latency for me (that lives in Brasil) than a Server in US.

I think that is a point because Xbone won't be available in all countries at launch... to archive the lowest latency possible they need to have a server more close possible to the user home... so they needs servers distributed in each country that Xbone will be release.

I made a test now for you...

My Work Machine to Google Severs: 130ms (Google is the fastest server response I have here... but it is not a dedicated gaming server)

I don't have the Azure IP server do make test but Digital Foundry stated that anything bigger than 100ms won't work for gaming cloud and I agree.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-in-theory-can-xbox-one-cloud-transform-gaming

And I will added to graphic processing they will need something below 50-40ms... that's almost impossible with the actual world network infrastructure.

For a comparison... the Killzone 3 controlls lateny is 6ms (the time you command in controller leaves to be processed by console in a offline simple-player campaing).

3) Like I said the World Internet Network doesn't support 1080p@60fps streaming for games... and the NetFlix uses a high compacted video that at the end the quality of 1080p is worst than a 720p offline video (or even worst)... five a look at the YouTube 1080p quality... for games you need better quality after all... so the streaming is way more massive (more data transfered by second).

2)  The latencies never changes... what changed is the internet spped... now you can transfer a lot more than your old modem... but you know latencies is caused by how much time a data package needs to go from a point (server) to another (cliente)... It is physical distances... like a Server here in Brasil have a better latency for me (that lives in Brasil) than a Server in US.

latencies change if you have servers local to your location as you stated.  Who do you think has the capability to provide more local resources within a given area.  Could it be the company that is spending billions on their infrastucture or is it the company who has to sell their buildings to post a profit.  You are still acting like things will remain the same as it is today.  You can easily google that MS has been for years building their servers with over 20K a week.  Do you think Sony is doing anything the same.  I do agree that MS is launching in the places they are because they have those local resources so the experience for people in those areas will be high.  The fact that MS actually has the cash to expand their services in other areas pretty quickly is also another advantage to their situation.

For a comparison... the Killzone 3 controlls lateny is 6ms (the time you command in controller leaves to be processed by console in a offline simple-player campaing).

Where did you get the latency number for the PS4 controller at 6ms.  I know most games are over 50 on the PS3 and 360 with COD being 33.  6ms would be huge.

On another note, isn't the X1 releasing in more terrorities than the PS4??

3) Like I said the World Internet Network doesn't support 1080p@60fps streaming for games... and the NetFlix uses a high compacted video that at the end the quality of 1080p is worst than a 720p offline video (or even worst)... five a look at the YouTube 1080p quality... for games you need better quality after all... so the streaming is way more massive (more data transfered by second).

If the world ran with want can be done today then we probably would never progress.  On the video front, if your game graphics is using raytracing for lighting and streamed at 1080P compressed video, I believe thats a compromise many people could live with.  Actually I do not have to look at youtube or nextflix, I can take a look at MS video 1080p service and see the results.  Do they look as good as native 1080p, Absolutly not but it looks good enough you have to have a side comparision to tell the difference.  Couple that with some very advance rendering within a game like raytracing and you probably woud not care.



radha said:
Machiavellian said:
Birimbau said:
I really want to see cloud computing improving games graphically, it is the solution to the problem of the lack of upgrade on consoles.

I wonder if people know that Azure is what Pixar uses as their render farm for their movies.  Yes, Pixar RenderMan is in the cloud and anybody can use it.  Here is a link that talk about the setup

http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/2010/10/28/pdc-why-steve-jobs-pixar-uses-microsoft-windows-azure/

People have used Azure for raytrace work and Azure is very capable of doing such things for games as well.  The problem is bandwidth which is always the issue.  MS could easily do what Gaikai does and re-render scenes using raytrace techniques and stream that video content to the user just like Giakai.  This is probably one of the differences between cloud computing and what Giakai does.  Gaikai can only stteam a game the way the game was created while MS cloud compute can actually plug into the games graphics pipline and use different rendering techniques to give a far better graphical output.

For people who are doubting this, a few google searches should ease your mind.


"MS cloud compute can actually plug into the games graphics pipline"  complely untrue, imposible currently. You are stating as fact something that is only your speculation, To do that would require GBps transfer speeds.

 

Your pixal example is not valid since that is not real time rendering.

If I am stating things that cannot be done then here is your proof of concept

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfenstein:_Ray_Traced

Since MS cloud can do the same thing, I am not speculation all that much.  Also if you just did a search raytrace and azure you would see that its also not as far fetch as you believe.  You do not need GPS transfer speed if you are compressing the video and sending it to the client.  MS cloud can do both.  It can render the scene and compress and send the results at the same time.

The pixar is just an example and whos to say that it cannot be scaled to real time.



Slimebeast said:
Imaginedvl said:

Yes very good post indeed.

Sadly, it will not change the fact that wanaba-developpers/internet readers will still come in this thread and call it a PR bullshit or compare it to something like Gaikai :)

The cloud computing is the future and Microsoft has been working for quite a time on this now; they are leader with Azure (alongside with Amazon) in this technology and I'm very glad to start seing some demo and "working" proof of concept like this.

The famous Milo demo was also a proof of concept of how groundbreaking and revolutionary Project Natal (Kinect) would be, and look how that turned out.

The difference here is that cloud computing is already being used for a lot of things but some people does not have a clue of what are the possibilities of it and are just comparing this with Gaikai (theprof for instance) even if it is totaly different. I was hoping this demo and the explaination of how they used the cloud computing would be enough to have the haters maybe understanding it.

Not the case... Still looking at the replies and some believe that Sony with Gaikai can do the same (most funny...) and others are still calling this BR bullshit.
My bad I mean, even with demo like that haters will still hate... Not sure why I epxected otherwise :)