By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General Discussion - How something can come from nothing

Jay520 said:
Player1x3 said:

They would, only on a very limited scale


If laws existed and laws are 'something', then doesn't that make it impossible for 'nothing' to exist, even theoretically?


''Nothing'' in its physical form...laws have no physical form. I thought we were talking about physial mater only here.

Basically, this whole conversation basically confirmes the theistic abrahamic God or deistic higher power i easly the most logical cause for the existence of the universe. (so far at least)



Around the Network
darkknightkryta said:
I remember when I took my philosophy in grade 12, can't remember who proposed this idea, but even if you have a "maker" there has to be something to have made that maker, and so on.

This is really the crux of the ontological and cosmological argument for God's existence. It all rests on whether or not necessary existence is a meaningful concept, and philosophers debate this problem quite extensively.



Player1x3 said:
Jay520 said:
Player1x3 said:

They would, only on a very limited scale


If laws existed and laws are 'something', then doesn't that make it impossible for 'nothing' to exist, even theoretically?


''Nothing'' in its physical form...laws have no physical form. I thought we were talking about physial mater only here.

Basically, this whole conversation basically confirmes the theistic abrahamic God or deistic higher power i easly the most logical cause for the existence of the universe. (so far at least)

By 'nothing', I meant everything, both physical and abstract entities. 

If anything, this conversating shows that 'something' must exist. It's not logically possible for nothing to exist. I don't see how this confirms that a single, conscious, omnibeloved, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, being started the universe.



Jay520 said:
Player1x3 said:
Jay520 said:
Player1x3 said:

They would, only on a very limited scale


If laws existed and laws are 'something', then doesn't that make it impossible for 'nothing' to exist, even theoretically?


''Nothing'' in its physical form...laws have no physical form. I thought we were talking about physial mater only here.

Basically, this whole conversation basically confirmes the theistic abrahamic God or deistic higher power i easly the most logical cause for the existence of the universe. (so far at least)

By 'nothing', I meant everything, both physical and abstract entities. 

If anything, this conversating shows that 'something' must exist. It's not logically possible for nothing to exist. I don't see how this confirms that a conscious, omnibeloved, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, being started the universe.


Well, you asked about the laws. But laws on their own can not make something happen (most certanly not something as complicated as the universe), they need something to enforce them...and that something cant be nothing. They need some sort of force, guidence, or physical matter. Its simple as that.  So even if if we say something did existe before the universe (and we dont include God) its still highly unlikely that that 'something'' caused the universe to exist



Player1x3 said:


Well, you asked about the laws. But laws on their own can not make something happen (most certanly not something as complicated as the universe), they need something to enforce them...and that something cant be nothing. They need some sort of force, guidence, or physical matter. Its simple as that.  So even if if we say something did existe before the universe (and we dont include God) its still highly unlikely that that 'something'' caused the universe to exist


True, but it is laws that stop things from happening in our universe. The laws of our universe prevent things from coming from nothing; everything has a cause. But before the universe existed, that law may or may not have existed. Therefore, before the universe existed, things may or may not have appeared without cause. Theoretically at least. 

Everything you've said is based on the laws and logic of our universe. But before the universe, who is to say that those laws and that logic applied?



Around the Network
Jay520 said:
Roma said:

1.) I gave an example before about dropping a glass for billions of years. will it one day form two perfect smaller glasses? lets add fire to melt it and water to cool it down will it ever take the form of two glasses filled with water?

2.) who decides what is perfect and what is not? if everything is meant to be the way it is then it is perfect. just because you don't think something is perfect it doesn't mean it wasn't meant to be that way for a specific reason. as I said everything has a reason weather you know that reason or not.

3.) so you are saying that if a plant can adapt to its environment that means there was no one that programed it to be the way it is today? don't confuse me with people who do not believe in evolution and mutation as that is part of the program in everything that exits. it changes to adapt and if it doesn't then its time is up and it has served its purpose.

4.) the very fact that a human has a soul is enough to prov Gods existence.

1.) I wouldn't know. What point are you making?

2.) How do you know things are meant to be a certain way? And how do you know everything is currently the way it was meant to be? How would you know if something wasn't what it was meant to be? How could you possibly know that? One could say humans weren't meant to fight each other, yet you see that happening today. Would that disprove your definition of perfect? And how do you know everythnig has a reason? Where are you getting this information?

3.) No, I was comparing a plant in a sidewalk to life in the universe. The plant exists in a very tiny crack of the sidewalk and only survives for a short amount of time. Just because the plant lived on the sidewalk doesn't mean the sidewalk was designed for the plant. The same goes for humans in the universe. Humans exists in a very tiny 'crack' of the universe and will only survive for a short amount of time. Like the sidewalk, the universe was not designed for life. Of course, this is assuming you belief the universe is perfect because of life.

4.) Define soul.

the point I'm making is that someone needs to form them in a form of two glasses. this goes to every thing in the universe! nothing can become something without guidance I mean I cant just through a bunch of wood and hope a bookshelf will build its self right?

how I know? well there are prophesies that are coming true yet have been written 1400 years ago. how can I not believe in things predicted to happen in that time frame and in to the future when they are happening everyday?

but this will take a lot of time to explain. I might do that tomorrow if your interested.

well it was not designed to live in that crack but it was designed to grow in dirt so wherever the seed falls and if the circumstances are right then it will grow. so that aria was not for it but because of the dirt it was designed to grow in it managed to do so for a short period. I'm not designed to have parasites on my body but the parasites are designed to jump on any body that they can suck on

how to define a soul... your life, consciousness



    R.I.P Mr Iwata :'(

Jay520 said:
Player1x3 said:


Well, you asked about the laws. But laws on their own can not make something happen (most certanly not something as complicated as the universe), they need something to enforce them...and that something cant be nothing. They need some sort of force, guidence, or physical matter. Its simple as that.  So even if if we say something did existe before the universe (and we dont include God) its still highly unlikely that that 'something'' caused the universe to exist


True, but it is laws that stop things from happening in our universe. The laws of our universe prevent things from coming from nothing; everything has a cause. But before the universe existed, that law may or may not have existed. Therefore, before the universe existed, things may or may not have appeared without cause. Theoretically at least. 

Everything you've said is based on the laws and logic of our universe. But before the universe, who is to say that those laws and that logic applied?


You know to whom logic and laws of our universe dont apply to? God. It is really the most logical explanation.

''But before the universe, who is to say that those laws and that logic applied?''

Nothing, but to create OUR UNIVERSE as it is now, you would need to use (or create) the laws that apply to OUR UNIVERSE. We can thus assume, that universe was created using the laws which it contains today. You cant use any laws to create something which later creates its own different laws and rules



Player1x3 said:


You know to whom logic and laws of our universe dont apply to? God. It is really the most logical explanation.

''But before the universe, who is to say that those laws and that logic applied?''

Nothing, but to create OUR UNIVERSE as it is now, you would need to use (or create) the laws that apply to OUR UNIVERSE. We can thus assume, that universe was created using the laws which it contains today. You cant use any laws to create something which later creates its own different laws and rules


True. but why must that God be conscious, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, omnibeloved, and how do you know there aren't more Gods. I can understand a belief in a creator, but where do these other  traits come from?

As for the second part: Who's to say? It seems like you're just making assumptions here. Just because laws have been constant for your life doesn't mean they weren't at some other time. 



Roma said:

1.) the point I'm making is that someone needs to form them in a form of two glasses. this goes to every thing in the universe! nothing can become something without guidance I mean I cant just through a bunch of wood and hope a bookshelf will build its self right?

2.) how I know? well there are prophesies that are coming true yet have been written 1400 years ago. how can I not believe in things predicted to happen in that time frame and in to the future when they are happening everyday?

but this will take a lot of time to explain. I might do that tomorrow if your interested.

3.) well it was not designed to live in that crack but it was designed to grow in dirt so wherever the seed falls and if the circumstances are right then it will grow. so that aria was not for it but because of the dirt it was designed to grow in it managed to do so for a short period. I'm not designed to have parasites on my body but the parasites are designed to jump on any body that they can suck on

4.) how to define a soul... your life, consciousness


1.) Yes, people must create a glass. Yes, some things are created by humans. But there are many more things not created by humans. People do not create planets, water, the sun, etc. so I don't see how this goes to every thing in the universe. Using that one example to explain the universe doesn't work because that one example doesn't make sense for everything else in the universe.

2.) What are these prophesies? Please, tell me.

3.) We're not talking about what the plant was designed to do. We're talking about what the sidewalk was designed to do. The sidewalk was not designed for plants, clearly. Just like the universe was not designed for life. Considering life is just barely hospitable in a very tiny part of the universe and it'll only be hospitable for a very short amount of time.

4.) How does life/consciousness prove God? Just because we cannot explain something today doesn't mean we should just jump and say "God did it!" That just means we don't know currently. There were plenty of things we didn't know in the past. Did that mean God did it? No, it just took us a while to learn more about the universe, ourselves, etc.



"law that "something cannot come from nothing" also doesn't exist. There are no laws governing nothingness that claim "something cannot come from nothing." Because no such laws exist, then something can come from nothing, in theory at least. "

Umm that isn't a law unless your saying the law of logic which exist just like abstract things.
If nothing existed numbers still exist laws are based from reactions in the physical world unlike abstract things.



"Excuse me sir, I see you have a weapon. Why don't you put it down and let's settle this like gentlemen"  ~ max