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Forums - General - How something can come from nothing

happydolphin on 24 November 2012
Jay520 said:
happydolphin said:
The laws don't apply when there is nothing... seems illogical, or at best unfounded. I can't disprove it, but you're going on faith.


its not faith as I don't believe it. I just thought it was interesting.

The "if you believe it" was implicit. Okay, have fun I guess it could be interesting to think about.



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Jay520 on 24 November 2012
Player1x3 said:
Jay520 said:
As an atheist, this has been the seemingly biggest problem I've personally had with myself: the idea that something can come from nothing. It makes no sense at all. It goes against one of the basic laws of the universe. Things don't just pop up out of nowhere. But I recently watched a video (I can't find it now) that has convinced me that it's at least plausible for something to come from nothing, and I thought I would share it with you all. It would be interesting to hear the opinions of fellow VGCharters.

Okay, why can't he universe come from nothing? Most would say because of the fact that "something cannot come from nothing". This is one of the core laws about our universe. Now imagine nothingness; there are no objects, no people, planets, air, dust, etc. While that is true, there also aren't any abstract things. Laws, limits, rules, etc. do not exist in nothingness. If no laws exist in nothingness, then the law that "something cannot come from nothing" also doesn't exist. There are no laws governing nothingness that claim "something cannot come from nothing." Because no such laws exist, then something can come from nothing, in theory at least.

Now, I'm not using this as absolute proof that our universe did come from nothing. But I think this at least makes it plausible, which is more than what I and many others may have believed. I just thought this was interesting and was wondering what many of you guys think about it. With no laws to say otherwise, is plausible for something to come from nothing? I'm not asking you to accept this as true or to lose faith in a creator or anything. I just want to know if you think this is plausible, at least.

Also, is it theoretically possible for there to be nothing? Think about it; if there is nothing, then there are still facts - the fact that there is nothing; otherwise, something would exist. It's impossible for facts not to exist.. But a fact is something. So, if facts always exist as something, then is it possible for nothing to exist? But then again, a fact that "nothing exists' seems paradoxical, doesn't it? Whatever you believe in - God, the universe coming from nothing, multiverse, etc- I think its safe to say no theory seems to make 'sense', no matter which you believe. At least not to me.

What do you think about this?


You seem to froget that nothingness is exactly that - nothing. Zero. Emptiness. There's one law governing nothingness and that's its own definition (the very definition of nothingness) And the definition of something is always supported by facts. 



Would laws/facts exist? Do laws/facts count as something?

Roma on 24 November 2012
Jay520 said:
Roma said:
Soleron said:
Roma said:
...

I have already explained my view on that matter and why it is more logical that there is a creator rather than the universe deciding to create itself from nothing as in no dust no nothing at all.


What created the creator?

I'll answer both in this post +Ja

if every creation has a creator then it would go on for ever and we would not exist therefore God is no creation to begin with.

anything that is finite has a creation. God is infinite that means he has no creator. and by looking at how things are designed they fallow pattern and a pattern indicates intelligence. its like a human would create but way more advanced anything a human would ever be able to understand no matter how far science goes.  

where does the soul/consciousness come from? is it particles?


How is this universe perfect exactly? Because there is life? From what we know, the universe can only support life in an extremely minuscule segment. Also, from what we know, life has only existed for an extremely short amount of time. Imagine a plant that managed to grow out of a crack in the sidewalk and managed to live for only a few days. The sidewalk is not perfect for life; it was not designed for the plant. Rather, the plant adapted to the sidewalk. The same applies to life and the universe. Life sprouted in the tiny segment where it was possible. And from what we know, its only going to surivive for an extremely short amount of time.

I don't know where consciousness came from. I don't claim to, either. That doesn't support that God caused it.

I gave an example before about dropping a glass for billions of years. will it one day form two perfect smaller glasses? lets add fire to melt it and water to cool it down will it ever take the form of two glasses filled with water?

who decides what is perfect and what is not? if everything is meant to be the way it is then it is perfect. just because you don't think something is perfect it doesn't mean it wasn't meant to be that way for a specific reason. as I said everything has a reason weather you know that reason or not.

so you are saying that if a plant can adapt to its environment that means there was no one that programed it to be the way it is today? don't confuse me with people who do not believe in evolution and mutation as that is part of the program in everything that exits. it changes to adapt and if it doesn't then its time is up and it has served its purpose.

the very fact that a human has a soul is enough to prov Gods existence.



    R.I.P Mr Iwata :'(

Player1x3 on 24 November 2012
Jay520 said:
Player1x3 said:
Jay520 said:
As an atheist, this has been the seemingly biggest problem I've personally had with myself: the idea that something can come from nothing. It makes no sense at all. It goes against one of the basic laws of the universe. Things don't just pop up out of nowhere. But I recently watched a video (I can't find it now) that has convinced me that it's at least plausible for something to come from nothing, and I thought I would share it with you all. It would be interesting to hear the opinions of fellow VGCharters.

Okay, why can't he universe come from nothing? Most would say because of the fact that "something cannot come from nothing". This is one of the core laws about our universe. Now imagine nothingness; there are no objects, no people, planets, air, dust, etc. While that is true, there also aren't any abstract things. Laws, limits, rules, etc. do not exist in nothingness. If no laws exist in nothingness, then the law that "something cannot come from nothing" also doesn't exist. There are no laws governing nothingness that claim "something cannot come from nothing." Because no such laws exist, then something can come from nothing, in theory at least.

Now, I'm not using this as absolute proof that our universe did come from nothing. But I think this at least makes it plausible, which is more than what I and many others may have believed. I just thought this was interesting and was wondering what many of you guys think about it. With no laws to say otherwise, is plausible for something to come from nothing? I'm not asking you to accept this as true or to lose faith in a creator or anything. I just want to know if you think this is plausible, at least.

Also, is it theoretically possible for there to be nothing? Think about it; if there is nothing, then there are still facts - the fact that there is nothing; otherwise, something would exist. It's impossible for facts not to exist.. But a fact is something. So, if facts always exist as something, then is it possible for nothing to exist? But then again, a fact that "nothing exists' seems paradoxical, doesn't it? Whatever you believe in - God, the universe coming from nothing, multiverse, etc- I think its safe to say no theory seems to make 'sense', no matter which you believe. At least not to me.

What do you think about this?


You seem to froget that nothingness is exactly that - nothing. Zero. Emptiness. There's one law governing nothingness and that's its own definition (the very definition of nothingness) And the definition of something is always supported by facts. 


Would laws/facts exist? Do laws/facts count as something

They would, only on a very limited scale



Player1x3 on 24 November 2012
Roma said:



the very fact that a human has a soul is enough to prov Gods existence.


And may God have mercy on yours, cuz you're about to enrage LOT OF PEOPLE to the point of mental breakdown with that statement



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Roma on 24 November 2012
Player1x3 said:
Roma said:



the very fact that a human has a soul is enough to prov Gods existence.


And may God have mercy on yours, cuz you're about to enrage LOT OF PEOPLE to the point of mental breakdown with that statement

*runs and hides behind the sofa!*



    R.I.P Mr Iwata :'(

Jay520 on 24 November 2012
Roma said:

1.) I gave an example before about dropping a glass for billions of years. will it one day form two perfect smaller glasses? lets add fire to melt it and water to cool it down will it ever take the form of two glasses filled with water?

2.) who decides what is perfect and what is not? if everything is meant to be the way it is then it is perfect. just because you don't think something is perfect it doesn't mean it wasn't meant to be that way for a specific reason. as I said everything has a reason weather you know that reason or not.

3.) so you are saying that if a plant can adapt to its environment that means there was no one that programed it to be the way it is today? don't confuse me with people who do not believe in evolution and mutation as that is part of the program in everything that exits. it changes to adapt and if it doesn't then its time is up and it has served its purpose.

4.) the very fact that a human has a soul is enough to prov Gods existence.

1.) I wouldn't know. What point are you making?

2.) How do you know things are meant to be a certain way? And how do you know everything is currently the way it was meant to be? How would you know if something wasn't what it was meant to be? How could you possibly know that? One could say humans weren't meant to fight each other, yet you see that happening today. Would that disprove your definition of perfect? And how do you know everythnig has a reason? Where are you getting this information?

3.) No, I was comparing a plant in a sidewalk to life in the universe. The plant exists in a very tiny crack of the sidewalk and only survives for a short amount of time. Just because the plant lived on the sidewalk doesn't mean the sidewalk was designed for the plant. The same goes for humans in the universe. Humans exists in a very tiny 'crack' of the universe and will only survive for a short amount of time. Like the sidewalk, the universe was not designed for life. Of course, this is assuming you belief the universe is perfect because of life.

4.) Define soul.

Also, I understand the belief in a creator. For some people, it's the only option that makes sense. What I don't understand is the traits and specifics that people assign to this creator. For example, the fact that he loves humans, the fact that there's only one god, that he knows everything, etc. You have the right to believe in a creator. But on what basis do you believe in a single, conscious, omnibeloved, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, creator?



Jay520 on 24 November 2012
Player1x3 said:

They would, only on a very limited scale


If laws existed and laws are 'something', then doesn't that make it impossible for 'nothing' to exist, even theoretically?



darkknightkryta on 24 November 2012

I remember when I took my philosophy in grade 12, can't remember who proposed this idea, but even if you have a "maker" there has to be something to have made that maker, and so on.



SvennoJ on 24 November 2012
Roma said:
Player1x3 said:
Roma said:



the very fact that a human has a soul is enough to prov Gods existence.


And may God have mercy on yours, cuz you're about to enrage LOT OF PEOPLE to the point of mental breakdown with that statement

*runs and hides behind the sofa!*

Enrage why? Just 1 simple question, what is a soul?