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Forums - General Discussion - Are you Pro-life or Pro-choice?

pro-life



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I don't remember how the Presidential Candidates stand on abortion, anybosy know.
Isn't usually dem, for
Rep, against.



^ Pretty much. Of the presidential candidates, Giuliani is the only one I know who breaks this rule, and he's almost like a Democrat who hasn't come out of the closet.



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Final-Fan said:
^ Pretty much. Of the presidential candidates, Giuliani is the only one I know who breaks this rule, and he's almost like a Democrat who hasn't come out of the closet.

Giuliani is basically a republican that just happens to be more liberal on some social issues. If you look at his stance on things like the war in Iraq, his views seem far more conservative.



elprincipe said:
Stillwell said:
"pro-life" people should mind their own goddamn business. Incredible what some people think they can mingle in.

Next time someone wants to murder you will you feel the same way?  Shall the police mind their own business when someone tries to kill you?


Wow, because that just the same! Great comparrison you got there! It's intelligence at this level most "pro-life" people have, and it's scary. Like I said before, if you don't believe in abortion, don't do it, but if someone else wants to abort, you just stay the fuck out of their private matters. Unbelievable.



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It absolutely boggles my mind that pro-lifers equate murdering someone to abortion.. I'll never understand it, and I think it's probably best that I don't. That to me doesn't show a value of life, but rather a devaluation of the life of the already born people.



Stillwell said:
elprincipe said:
Stillwell said:
"pro-life" people should mind their own goddamn business. Incredible what some people think they can mingle in.

Next time someone wants to murder you will you feel the same way? Shall the police mind their own business when someone tries to kill you?


Wow, because that just the same! Great comparrison you got there! It's intelligence at this level most "pro-life" people have, and it's scary. Like I said before, if you don't believe in abortion, don't do it, but if someone else wants to abort, you just stay the fuck out of their private matters. Unbelievable.


It's exactly the same and a perfectly valid comparison.  Surely you can accept the logic that if you hold the view that a fetus is a human being, killing said fetus is murder.  It doesn't take much intelligence to understand that it therefore follows that the government should outlaw this kind of murder as it does all other kinds.  You seem not to get the view that when you have one person trying to kill another it is most certainly the government's responsibility to prevent the killing from  happening.  You also seem to think that we should "stay the fuck out of private matters" that aren't private at all since they involve two people in a life or death situation.



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It's easy enough to understand the principle: Think about the way you'd feel about someone carrying a baby to term and, feeling herself too incompetent to be a good mother or maybe just too inconvenienced, suffocating the newborn and tossing the body in a dumpster.

Now apply that sentiment that you feel for the "newborn" all the way back to "fertilized egg".

That's why I can respect elprincipe more than people making exceptions for rape, incest, etc. They're complete hypocrites. I disagree very strongly with elprincipe, but he's not inconsistent in the way those others are.

[edit:  Looking back, it seems that elprincipe has no problem killing fertilized eggs as long as they haven't been "implanted".  Why the distinction, elprincipe?]



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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Final-Fan said:
elprincipe said:
Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:

How can you justify abortions when the mother's life is in danger? And people under the age of consent?

How is killing someone else for those reasons any more right then killing people for other reasons? If you legally define a fetus as a person, you can't at all have abortions. For ANY reason. Including situations where there is literally no chance of either patient surviving.

It would go against the Hippocratic Oath. No doctor would perform a "legal" abortion.

Also, anyone who voted for such a law would be a hypocrite of the highest order. Giving fetuses conditional humanity is worse then none at all. It's something I can't understand in people who see fetuses as kids. It's the real inhumanity in this debate.

Well they wouldn't be hypocrites if they believed in speeding up people's deaths to save people on trasnplant lists and the like. But like I said. Inhuman.

(slight spelling corrections and the like have been performed by me on the above)

Epic win. Pro-lifers who make exceptions for rape and so on are hypocrites.

Every pro-lifer needs to be able to fully address this post.

As for me, pro-choice. Up to some point more than halfway through the pregnancy the life is not a person but rather a potential person, and in many cases the likely outcome of that potential is not good or even ruinous to the person, the mother/family, or both.

1. I've already addressed the points above. But they are important questions that people should think about. Why do some support allowing abortion in cases of rape and incest, as if that makes a child less a child? I don't see the logic in it.

2. How do you decide that a fetus is human randomly at the halfway point in a pregnancy? That is a ridiculous statement. Not only have children been born before that point and survived, but what makes a fetus non-human one day and human the next? How do you even know what is halfway through a pregnancy since they aren't the same length?

This kind of thinking is what most mystifies me about those who are pro-abortion (or at least pro-keeping-abortion-legal). It can lead easily to the conclusion that you are merely rationalizing the issue for convenience's sake, since it is completely illogical. Also, please explain to me how a fetus with its own genetic code, growing on its own, with its own body, beating heart and brain wave activity is not human but merely a "potential" person.

Normal human gestation period: 37-42 weeks
Earliest living premature birth: 21 weeks 6 days
So, you are wrong.

More importantly, viability is not equal to self-awareness.

It's a potential person similarly to how an appleseed is a potential apple tree: given time, it will grow into one, but that doesn't mean it is one RIGHT NOW.

fkusumot has been talking about cognition in some detail and I think you would do well to take another look at those posts. You say, "living tissue that has human DNA = human person" and we disagree. Calling all legal-abortion supporters illogical is ... illogical.

Accepted that I was six days off; close enough, however.  Realize also that as science advances we are able to keep babies alive at earlier and earlier points after premature birth or emergency C-section.  So soon we will have babies being able to survive at 20 weeks, then 19, and so on.  Why are babies in the womb at those points in development not human now if you can accept they are human later?

And what is self-awareness?  Are you saying that babies that have been born prematurely are not self-aware?  That is a strange argument.

Lastly, your apple seed example is not a good one at all.  It would be more apt if you said you wouldn't classify an apple tree seedling as the same species as an apple tree.



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Metallicube said:
 

The more I read these pro-life arguements, the more I realize that way too many people let their emotions and perspective of what is "morally right" cloud their judgment of logic and reason.

That's funny because I feel the same way many times about arguments made by pro-abortion-legal folks.  It is not logical to arbitrarily define humanity based on birth or time in the womb, as most of you do.  Strangely, a lot of you will tell us that a baby past his or her due date that could easily be delivered by C-section is not human yet since a thin layer or skin and fluid separates it from the outside world.  Or that a non-human fetus magically becomes a human baby after 180 days in the womb, or 120 days the womb.  Or that a non-human fetus magically becomes human because it develops a certain organ or feature, despite the fact that newborns - obviously people - still are developing many of their internal systems and bone structure.  All of these arguments must be based on some degree of emotion, since they are not reasonably concluded from all the medical knowledge available to us.



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