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Forums - General Discussion - Are you Pro-life or Pro-choice?

Final-Fan on 25 January 2008
segajon said:
That picture is a devoloping human it would be wrong to kill it.
Yes, and I'm so glad you decided to ignore my asking WHY you think so, in actuality as opposed to in potential. 

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elprincipe on 27 January 2008

Final-Fan: I don't think I can be more explicit. Letting nature take its course is hardly murdering anyone, whereas killing the person we've created is the opposite of that. I'm not sure I understand why you are confused. If we prevent the fertilized egg from being implanted, we are just preventing the process from getting to the point where personhood is obtained - like any other form of contraception, only at a different point in the process.



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Final-Fan on 27 January 2008

Yes, I understand you perfectly: You believe that a growing embryo before implantation is not human, and that after implantation the growing embryo is human. What I do not understand are the justifications you have given for believing why we should define humanity to begin at that point as you do.

You are perfectly free to believe that humanity begins at implantation without any reason. But do not expect us to agree to your definition without a compelling reason, which you have completely failed to deliver.



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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elprincipe on 28 January 2008
Final-Fan said:
Yes, I understand you perfectly: You believe that a growing embryo before implantation is not human, and that after implantation the growing embryo is human. What I do not understand are the justifications you have given for believing why we should define humanity to begin at that point as you do.

You are perfectly free to believe that humanity begins at implantation without any reason. But do not expect us to agree to your definition without a compelling reason, which you have completely failed to deliver.

It is difficult when you refuse to understand a clearly stated post.  I don't really expect to convince someone like you in any case, as you clearly have your own well-developed viewpoint on this issue (which I completely disagree with, of course).



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Final-Fan on 28 January 2008

You appear to have clearly stated that you define an embryo to be human once it has been successfully implanted because it is at that point that the survival of the embryo becomes dramatically more likely. *

Is that an accurate summation of your viewpoint? If it is not accurate, in what way is it mistaken? If it is accurate, why do you choose survival rate as your decisive factor in the humanity of an embryo?

*(Wikipedia sez 30-60% of embryos are lost prior to implantation and thereafter only 25% of the survivors are miscarried in the next few weeks.)



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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Final-Fan on 28 January 2008
Also:
elprincipe said:
If we prevent the fertilized egg from being implanted, we are just preventing the process from getting to the point where personhood is obtained - like any other form of contraception, only at a different point in the process.
I think it's a bit misleading to refer to killing an embryo prior to implantation as "contraception". The etymology is clearly "contra-" (against) and "conception", the act of concieving. Drug-induced miscarriages done prior to implantation are referred to as "medical abortions".  What you describe would be contragestion.

However, I will say that there are apparently many who define "conception" as the very act of implantation under discussion.  (From what I can tell -- and I may have a mistaken impression, as this paragraph is the result of 20 minutes of internet research -- this was a bit of social engineering meant to make it easier for people to end something that isn't yet 'really' a prengancy.)  But that is not what I thought we both understood conception to mean, which is the successful creation of a zygote.  Am I wrong? 

On the plus side, I do see that we agree that the question hinges on when personhood is obtained.


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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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Copycon on 28 January 2008

Why are pro-life people often against public healthcare? Isn't letting people die through structural violence bad as well?



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akuma587 on 28 January 2008
Copycon said:
Why are pro-life people often against public healthcare? Isn't letting people die through structural violence bad as well?


Because most of them are self-serving hypocrites.  Once you are alive, they don't give a shit about you.  Before you are born, then you have rights that need to be protected.

No surprise the pro-life party is not on the side of women or minorities either.  In many ways not allowing abortion is just another way to control women.  Republicans, at least on social issues, force people to adopt their viewpoint, which I think is wrong when the debate involves something where there are at least two or more sides.



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Final-Fan on 28 January 2008

There is at least two or more sides, eh?



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

coolestguyever on 28 January 2008

I'll go for pro-choice. Do you really want to see thousands of 14 yr. old girls having to keep the baby when it was a mistake/accident? It'll ruin their lives.

There was a girl in my Gr. 9 or 10 math class (can't remember) who was pregnant at 14 or 15, then her boyfriend dumped her, so she, and her parents were stuck with the baby all by themselves.