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Forums - General Discussion - Are you Pro-life or Pro-choice?

Metallicube said:
one last thing I need to add. It seems odd to me that although most of the pro lifers here would agree that abortion would be ok only if the woman was raped, they still want abortion to be illegal.. Well if abortion was illegal, what happens to the rape victims (you know, the only ones that get the ok from you pro lifers?) Being illegal would obviously mean illegal no matter what, no questions asked..

And even if you DID make it a law to be illegal except for cases of rape, what's to stop some desperate women from making up stories about how they were raped (not saying it's right, but it's possible)? What is the governemt going to investigate each and every case and find out whether or not the female was really raped? The "illegal accept for cases of rape" argument just doesn't make much sense to me. At least the more hardcore pro-lifers that want it illegal no matter what seem to have a little more logic in this sense..

This is not a problem for me at least since I don't support abortion being legal in cases of rape or incest.  See my above posts for details.  I agree that it's inconsistent to allow it in those cases, but then again I understand why people are torn over this issue due to the incredibly difficult circumstances.



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Stillwell said:
"pro-life" people should mind their own goddamn business. Incredible what some people think they can mingle in.

Next time someone wants to murder you will you feel the same way?  Shall the police mind their own business when someone tries to kill you?



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elprincipe said:
Metallicube said:

 

Because half the country does not see abortion as a crime, whereas 99.9% of the country believes that robbery is wrong and is a crime. Don't you find it the slightest bit odd that half the country would support this form of "murder" as you call it?

You are misunderstanding me.  You say we should not attempt to make abortion illegal since people would do it anyone.  In my and others' view, abortion is the same as murdering a child.  Therefore, why would we NOT want to make it illegal?  And I do find it incredible the way people rationalize on this issue of life and death, but then again it's what they've been taught to think. 

Nowhere did I make the claim that making abortion illegal would increase the amount of abortions (although I really don't think it would decrease as much as you think. A woman who would go through such a dramatic procedure such as abortion would probably go through severe lengths if the situation was dire enough). What it WILL do is make the system more chaotic, more gruesome, more unhealthy for the woman, and far less civilized.

Well, we have a disagreement then, since I think it would dramatically decrease the amount of abortions.  Not everyone is willing or able to seek out a back-alley butcher to kill her child, nor are many willing or able to travel to another country to have her child killed.  Some would, of course, no doubt about that.  And abortion is already murdering a defenseless child, so it can't be too much more gruesome than it already is (I could, of course, look up pictures of some unbelievably gruesome things found in dumpsters behind abortion clinics if you want...perhaps you should really take a look at them to see if you still have the stomach to support its legality).  Abortion is also already a dangerous procedure even when legal.  And it's hard to believe that less murdering of children would be "far less civilized."

I guess I misspoke on this part. If you want my honest opinion, no I do not believe that a fetus is a true "human being" yet since it is part of the mother and depends on her for life. So I should not have said "baby" because in my view a fetus becomes a human "baby" once it is born and it independant from the mother for support. So no, I do not believe abortion is murder. I understand you do, and I respect that. But this is where we should agree to disagree because neither of us will change eachother's minds on this matter. At the end of the day it boils down to the individual's perspective of morallity and this perspective will never change in a person's mind.


 


Infants depend on their mothers for life.  Do you think a newborn can survive without someone to feed him or her, someone to take care of them?  Ditto a lot of seniors.

It's hard to understand as well why being born makes someone a person.  If a fetus can be born after four months in the womb and survive, would it then have been okay for that fetus to be aborted after five months in the womb?  After all, the only thing making it not a person in your view is a thin layer of skin and fluid enclosing it in the womb.  What about a baby about to be born, the mother in labor?  Should it be okay to kill the baby at that point in time - so long as it hasn't yet emerged?  And what about partial-birth abortion, where the baby's head is delivered, the "doctor" stabs the baby in the neck, kills him or her, and then removes the rest of the body?  Sorry, tried not to be too graphic (maybe I should be more graphic?  I don't think some people are fully informed of the realities of abortion). 


Look, bottom line is I don't believe a fetus should be looked at as a true "human" until it is born. It's still a part of the mother. I do agree that partial birth abortions are a terrible thing but the vast majority of abortions that take place are not partial birth so it is a small factor in the overall picture and really besides the point I'm trying to make.

 Everyone has a different view of when the fetus "becomes" a true human being so you have to draw the line somewhere. If abortion did become illegal where do you draw the line as to when the fetus becomes a "baby?" At what month in the pregnancy is the abortion simply birth control and at what point does it become murder? Who's to say when life really begins? Should we also ban birth control pills because it's cutting off the potential of a "baby" to be created? Making abortion illegal would require the government to come up with a precise defined time in the pregnancy when the fetus becomes a "baby" and I really don't think it's possible to set one specific timeframe in the pregnancy that will satisfy everyone.



Metallicube - it'd be easy to ask a few hundred doctors to create a framework around defining where and when human life begins.

In the US, when abortion was legalized, there were no ultrasounds, or any sort of technology to understand what was going on in the womb. Now we do. Now we see what the baby is doing. Did you know that 90% of all women that get ultrasounds and see their fetus (or child, depending on what you want to call it) decide that it is indeed real life, and decide against the abortion?

America has already defined a few specific limits on what abortionists can do - Ever hear about our partial birth abortion ban?

Better yet, what do you think about partial-birth abortions?



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

mrstickball said:
Metallicube - it'd be easy to ask a few hundred doctors to create a framework around defining where and when human life begins.

In the US, when abortion was legalized, there were no ultrasounds, or any sort of technology to understand what was going on in the womb. Now we do. Now we see what the baby is doing. Did you know that 90% of all women that get ultrasounds and see their fetus (or child, depending on what you want to call it) decide that it is indeed real life, and decide against the abortion?

America has already defined a few specific limits on what abortionists can do - Ever hear about our partial birth abortion ban?

Better yet, what do you think about partial-birth abortions?

There is no true answer to when human life truely begins, it all depends on the point of view, this is not an absoulte science that can be defined by some doctors, never has been, never will be, because there will always be someone who will want to take it a step farther back and claim that entity to be a human life. Hell the hardest of hardcore pro-lifers will even tell you that life begins at fertilization of the female egg... What do you say to them?

As for partial-birth abortions, like I said, it's a gruesome procedure, but you have to look at it this way; why would ANY woman actually go through this horrific procedure if not for a REALLY important reason where it is the only feasible solution (mother's life is threatened, some severe physical deformities that would cause the fetus/mother to suffer/ etc)? Yes partial birth abortion is an extreme procedure but believe it or not there may be EXTREME situations that call for it. Why else would any woman put herself through that unless for a dire reason? Also like I said, the VAST majority of abortions that take place are not partial birth.
 
The more I read these pro-life arguements, the more I realize that way too many people let their emotions and perspective of what is "morally right" cloud their judgment of logic and reason.

 



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elprincipe said:
Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:

How can you justify abortions when the mother's life is in danger? And people under the age of consent?

How is killing someone else for those reasons any more right then killing people for other reasons? If you legally define a fetus as a person, you can't at all have abortions. For ANY reason. Including situations where there is literally no chance of either patient surviving.

It would go against the Hippocratic Oath. No doctor would perform a "legal" abortion.

Also, anyone who voted for such a law would be a hypocrite of the highest order. Giving fetuses conditional humanity is worse then none at all. It's something I can't understand in people who see fetuses as kids. It's the real inhumanity in this debate.

Well they wouldn't be hypocrites if they believed in speeding up people's deaths to save people on trasnplant lists and the like. But like I said. Inhuman.

(slight spelling corrections and the like have been performed by me on the above)

Epic win. Pro-lifers who make exceptions for rape and so on are hypocrites.

Every pro-lifer needs to be able to fully address this post.

As for me, pro-choice. Up to some point more than halfway through the pregnancy the life is not a person but rather a potential person, and in many cases the likely outcome of that potential is not good or even ruinous to the person, the mother/family, or both.

1. I've already addressed the points above. But they are important questions that people should think about. Why do some support allowing abortion in cases of rape and incest, as if that makes a child less a child? I don't see the logic in it.

2. How do you decide that a fetus is human randomly at the halfway point in a pregnancy? That is a ridiculous statement. Not only have children been born before that point and survived, but what makes a fetus non-human one day and human the next? How do you even know what is halfway through a pregnancy since they aren't the same length?

This kind of thinking is what most mystifies me about those who are pro-abortion (or at least pro-keeping-abortion-legal). It can lead easily to the conclusion that you are merely rationalizing the issue for convenience's sake, since it is completely illogical. Also, please explain to me how a fetus with its own genetic code, growing on its own, with its own body, beating heart and brain wave activity is not human but merely a "potential" person.

Normal human gestation period:  37-42 weeks
Earliest living premature birth:  21 weeks 6 days
So, you are wrong. 

More importantly, viability is not equal to self-awareness. 

It's a potential person similarly to how an appleseed is a potential apple tree:  given time, it will grow into one, but that doesn't mean it is one RIGHT NOW. 

fkusumot has been talking about cognition in some detail and I think you would do well to take another look at those posts.  You say, "living tissue that has human DNA = human person" and we disagree.  Calling all legal-abortion supporters illogical is ... illogical. 

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elprincipe said:
If a fetus can be born after four months in the womb and survive, would it then have been okay for that fetus to be aborted after five months in the womb?

From a completely rational standpoint: yes, feti born prematurely are OK to "abort" until the point in their development that it would not be OK to abort them were they inside the womb.

However, humans are not completely rational animals so I do not expect this to ever become law even in the most abortion-tolerant climate imaginable. Birth is a huge psychological step for everyone involved, and crossing that barrier pretty much makes the fetus "safe".



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My take:

rape/medical complication = pro-choice

people forgetting protection = pro-life

it's those people's own fault and they shouldn't take the "choice" away from the fetus as soon as it's fertilized. it was their choice not to use protection. if they don't want the baby, give him/her up for adoption as there are many people who want kids but cannot have any. Better than killing off something that already started to live. They used their choice for not having protection, they should not be given another choice. But for rape, the victim had no choice so they should be able to chose this time around. (IMO)



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Delusional: Kasz216 is quoted in my post above. Take a look at that and tell us why you aren't either a hypocrite or very very mean to bad decision makers.



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mrstickball said:

Did you know that 90% of all women that get ultrasounds and see their fetus (or child, depending on what you want to call it) decide that it is indeed real life, and decide against the abortion?


If a woman were thinking about getting an abortion, why would she want an ultrasound in the process?