By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General Discussion - Are you Pro-life or Pro-choice?

Final-Fan said:

[edit: Looking back, it seems that elprincipe has no problem killing fertilized eggs as long as they haven't been "implanted". Why the distinction, elprincipe?]

Easy, many eggs are fertilized and never implanted in the female and start to grow. I don't mourn these as lost lives because they never began life as a person; they were merely fertilized eggs. Once a fertilized egg is implanted in the female and begins to grow on its own, that is a separate, distinct, unique person and not just the two building blocks of a person together.



In Memoriam RVW Jr.

SSBB Friend Code = 5455-9050-8670 (PM me if you add so I can add you!) 

Tetris Party Friend Code = 116129046416 (ditto)

Around the Network

@Elprincipe.

The change from a bunch of cells to a person is not an instantaneous thing like you are making it out we are saying. In the same way as when a tadpole changes into a frog there is no instant where it changes but rather a process over which it slowly changes.
A reasonable conclusion is that a fetus is a person when it is viable without being inside its mothers womb, once again there is no clearly defined point at which this is the case however it is usually accepted that a child born before around the 24th week of pregnancy is unlikely to survive.



Maybe my apple seed analogy isn't the best, but the more important issue is that you've completely missed the point of "viability =/= self-awareness". You seem to say that I'm saying that being born premature somehow makes the infant not self-aware. Nothing could be further from the truth.

A fetus develops at a certain rate. Heartbeat, organs, etc. When a fetus is born prematurely, it has left the womb at an earlier stage of development. Ergo, if self-awareness develops at a certain stage (which it must), and medical science advances (or has advanced) to the point that a fetus born before that stage can be kept alive, that baby is not going to magically be self-aware just because it was born but rather continue at a more or less normal rate of development. (Or maybe development would be somewhat accelerated due to the birth, I don't know, but the point remains.)

I don't see how that is a strange argument at all. Rather, it would seem to me to be strange to argue the opposite. You are of course free to try to persuade me that the opposite is in fact the case, and I would be interested in seeing your arguments.

Self-awareness or intellect is to me critical to personhood and therefore to when it is no longer acceptable to terminate a pregnancy. The debate then devolves onto when that state of being develops.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

70% Pro-life 30% Pro-choice

Pro-life: if you dont want the baby, use condom not abortion.
You just cant kill the baby unless it's danger to the mom or the baby got some serious disease/defect

Pro-choice: in the first 2-3 months, it's not a human yet, it's just a piece of meat, i think it's okay.





elprincipe said:
Final-Fan said:

[edit: Looking back, it seems that elprincipe has no problem killing fertilized eggs as long as they haven't been "implanted". Why the distinction, elprincipe?]

Easy, many eggs are fertilized and never implanted in the female and start to grow. I don't mourn these as lost lives because they never began life as a person; they were merely fertilized eggs. Once a fertilized egg is implanted in the female and begins to grow on its own, that is a separate, distinct, unique person and not just the two building blocks of a person together.

OK, but [edit: never mind this part, you never said what I'm arguing against. I'll leave it in though.] what does the survival rate of the fertilized eggs have to do with anything? Back in the middle ages when infant mortality rates were just ridiculous would it be OK to have abortion? (I seem to recall that way back when they didn't even name infants in many cultures until a certain age, presumably because so many died soon after birth. I could be wrong though.)

Why does successful implantation into the female make the fertilized egg MORE separate, distinct, and unique? That doesn't make any sense to me at all. Cell division begins to occur immediately; the growth is already underway. Why is a blastocyst human after successfully burrowing into the uterus and not before?

Repeat: Growth begins BEFORE implantation.

Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Around the Network

Oh, so because you say it's valid, it is? Insanity and low IQ is-a bad, bad combo.



Rath said: "A reasonable conclusion is that a fetus is a person when it is viable without being inside its mothers womb, once again there is no clearly defined point at which this is the case however it is usually accepted that a child born before around the 24th week of pregnancy is unlikely to survive."

Such logic faces problems, since viability is dependent on the medical technology available. It would be odd to suggest that a 26 week old Scandinavian foetus is a person because their medical technology is so good while a 28 week old Rwandan foetus is not a person because the medical technology isn't so good. Also, as medical research progresses further and further, it will be possible to save the lives of those born prematurely earlier and earlier. Ultimately, the argument that personhood begins at the point of viability could become the argument that such a point is conception.



^ Or you could say that it has to be viable without the aid of medical technology. (Not that you CAN'T use technology but that would be the threshold.)



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

"Or you could say that it has to be viable without the aid of medical technology. (Not that you CAN'T use technology but that would be the threshold.)"

That is a horrible idea. We'll determine where life begins by its chances of survival without medical attention. There'd be tons of births that could be "aborted" after birth using this criteria.

No, the only logical times to define whether a fetus is "human" is at conception or at the moment of birth. Since almost nobody thinks aborting a 9 month fetus is acceptable, the only other logical option is conception. Anything in between is impossible to logically "prove" humanity.



Witty signature here...

Wii: 14 million by January  I sold myself short

360: 13 million by January I sold microsoft short, but not as bad as Nintendo.

PS3: 6 million by January. If it approaches 8 mil i'll eat crow  Mnn Crow is yummy.

With these results, I've determined that I suck at long term predictions, and will not long term predict anything ever again. Thus spaketh Crono.

@Declan and Crono.

Yes, whats so bad about that? If something cannot survive without essentially being placed inside of an artificial womb it isn't viable as far as I am concerned.

@Crono alone.

Thats like saying that because nobody thinks a fully grown frog is a tadpole and anything in between is impossible to 'prove' that its a frog not a tadpole it must be a fully grown frog since it hatched from its egg. That makes no sense either.