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Forums - Sony Discussion - Will the PS4's First/Second-Party be more influential to hardware sales than with the PS3?

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Answer the damn question!

Yes! 49 57.65%
 
No! 23 27.06%
 
They will both suck! 13 15.29%
 
Total:85
HappySqurriel on 14 September 2012
Kresnik said:
HappySqurriel said:

But that only works if Sony has the cash-flow to support external development ...

If Sony is closing studios because they can't afford to keep them open and operating, I'm doubtful they can afford to fund similar development at an external studio. Likely the IPs won't die off, but rather than getting 6 or 8 games a year (in total) from the studios that closed we will likely see 1 or 2 games released involving these IPs each year.

If these were the only closures that are going to happen it might not be that bad, but if you add to it another series of closures of similar studios it will start to put a big hole in Sony's PS4 line-up compared to their PS3 line-up.


I think you're missing something here though, which Jay has mentioned in a couple of his posts.  There's a difference between closing a studio because you're in financial trouble, and closing a studio because they're just not productive enough or not profitable.  In the case of the 3 studios that Sony have shut, I'd say it was a mix of both.  They need to cut back wherever possible, so why not shut down:

a) A studio which has never had a game sell more than a million copies (Psygnosis)

b) A studio very much on the decline throughout the current generation (Zipper)

c) A studio without much of a purpose to be honest, and no big IP (BigBig)

They were very much the weak links in Sony's lineup.  And if they had the same output for any other publisher (EA/Acti, even Microsoft), they'd have been shut down ages ago.  I mean, don't get me wrong - I loved Studio Liverpool and WipEout is one of my favourite series ever, but from a business standpoint it has never - and will never - be big enough.

And this brings me to my point.  It's one thing to shut down an unproductive studio or three, because financial difficulties or not it just makes a lot of business sense.  And it's a completely different issue to invest in the external development of an IP that has traditionally sold very well.  Sony are in financial trouble - not denying that for a second, but they're not just going to stop making games.  As I'm sure someone once said, "You have to spend money to make money!", and in the case of an exterally developed game that's got a good chance of selling well enough to make a decent profit, then obviously Sony are going to invest. 

I don't necessarily disagree, but I also think that people are not fully considering the poor financial shape of Sony ... Sony as a company is in very rough financial shape which is putting a lot of pressure on their Gaming division, and their gaming division has had a very rough several years and has many significant challenges ahead.

With that said, the core question was whether the PS4's games were going to be more influential than the PS3's games were and its difficult to see how a company that is reducing the number of developers and is (probably) looking to have existing developers reduce costs as best as they can will produce more games that have a bigger impact on hardware sales with increasing development costs and longer development timelines. From a purely number's perspective I would expect fewer games that were shorter, had less features, and were (generally) less impressive in relative terms.



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Kasz216 on 15 September 2012
Jay520 said:
Kasz216 said:

Sure they were.  They were plenty impactful, each in their own small way.

The bigger studios won't be able to compensate for all of their smaller and many contributions.

Your falling into a common trap only looking at the things that score by miles, not realizing that in reality... the game is one by the inches.

If the BIG games only mattered, N64 would of eaisly did as well if not better then the PS1.  You look at the all time impactful games, N64 destroys the PS1. 

The only reason the PS4 games might do better won't be due to their individual impact ability, but possibly due to not having to go up against another Wii.  (impact wise.)

You seem to be misintrepreting what I mean by 'impactful.' When you say the N64 killed the PS1 in terms of impactful games, you must be using games that sell well over 8m as qualifying for 'impactful'. You must have assumed that I was excluding the moderately selling games (those that sell about 2-5m), considering the PS1 destroyed the N64 in that department.

However, I'm not excluding those 2-4m sellers as impactful. I recognize those as significant sales. But when it comes to the few studios that Sony shut down, they don't fall into this category. You say that things score by inches, but the games from those shut down studios weren't even inches. They were more like centimeters. Their games only sold a million - if they were lucky. Some of the studios didn't even make any retail games throughout this generation. That's why I firmly believe that their loss will mean much.

EDIT: See post below to see why those games weren't impactful

- - - 

To All: The PS4 could have a more impactful first/second party if some of the Sony's mid-level developers (like Guerrilla Games, Sucker Punch, etc) releases a 'big' game like say Uncharted or God of War. As of now, Sony really only has 3-4 big IPs, depending on how you rank LittleBigPlanet. Those are Gran Turismo, Uncharted, God of War, and maybe LittleBigPlanet. That's not a long list, so if two or three more games were to join it, then I think the outcome would be large.

You also have to also consider the fact that two of those IPs, Gran Turismo (By far, Sony's biggest game) and God of War, have only graced the PS3 once each. And when they did, it wasn't until 4 years after the PS3 launched. If developers can get their games out earlier - when hardware sales are most affected by software - and more often, then Sony's software would be a lot more influential on hardware sales imo. Even if Sony doesn't establish any new big IPs, then the mere fact that Sony's current games will come out earlier and more often should have a notable effect.

Your still missing it.  Actual numbers don't matter so much as demographics of games.

For example Disagaea games for example really don't sell well... however it's a very important series.

WAY more important than most 2-5 million selling series.  Sony cut a lot of it's diversity and speed in the first/second party, and has hurt itself.  It will need to rely on third parties to pick up the slack... it will rely on third parties to be much more impactful.  If your looking at why people buy specific consoles?  The big name games are a lot smaller part then you'd think for most.

The big number games can't make up for it.



Jay520 on 15 September 2012
Kasz216 said:

Your still missing it.  Actual numbers don't matter so much as demographics of games.

For example Disagaea games for example really don't sell well... however it's a very important series.

WAY more important than most 2-5 million selling series.  Sony cut a lot of it's diversity and speed in the first/second party, and has hurt itself.  It will need to rely on third parties to pick up the slack... it will rely on third parties to be much more impactful.  If your looking at why people buy specific consoles?  The big name games are a lot smaller part then you'd think for most.

The big number games can't make up for it.

Sony didn't really cut that much. They cut BigBig who didn't even make PS3 games to begin with, so they're not relavent to the point. They cut Liverpool, but they only made one game, a digital game, throughout the PS3's lifetime. I'd say Zipper was the only influential cut. Are you telling me that these cuts were really impactful? So, judging by what these developers did for the PS3, the only things the PS4 will be missing in comparison is: 1 digital game, a 1.2m selling game, and a 700k selling game. That's it

I think Sony's recent acquasitions (Media Molecule and Sucker Punch) more than make up for those losses. If you don't agree, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.



Heavenly_King on 15 September 2012

They will. That is the reason why they invested so much money in their first party studios this generation. At first people was like, "Sony is loosing their exclusives (3rd party), and releasing some new 1st party games; meh I dont give a damn", but now people are like "HOLY MOTHER OF GOD! Sony exclusives are the best!" and those are now 1st party.

The lose of the "exclusives" and the high price, hurt the PS3 a lot sales-wise, until Sony began unleashing the POWA of the "Black Beast" XD releasing games like Uncharted, God of War, LBP, Infamous, etc and lots of PSN games that with a price cut and re-design have made it the best selling console worldwide for years now.

When people hear about the PS3 now, they visualize in their minds Uncharted, God Of War, LBP, and also some 3rd party games like MGS4, PES, etc. But back then it was all about third party DMC4, Resident Evil, FFXIII, etc. And as time passes their 1st party exclusives will be even more important, and will be the ones that will drive the sales of the PS4.



Open World-Survival-Game Days Gone

Heavenly_King on 15 September 2012
Gamerace said:
Sony's 1st/2nd party exclusives have been fantastic this generation, and yet, Sony is still in 3rd place.

I think it will take more than great exclusives, PS4 must really distinguish itself from the competition in a much more fundimental way than PS3 did, otherwise, if 90% of it's games are shared, it'll have a hard time pulling ahead. Especially if it's last to launch next gen as expected.

Because the first years were a piece of crap.  It took a while for Sony to release their 1st party games, it was loosing 3rd party support, the console was really expensive;  and it took a while for people to realize how awesome the exclusives were.  The turning point of this debacle was the release of MGS4 (incredible game) in 2008.  After the whole vibe around the PS3 changed.  1 amazing exclusive turned the PS3 from a dying console; to a console, ready to continue fighting the good fight.   I know that MGS is no longer exclusive, but you get the idea on how a great game can influence the sales of a console.   So after the redesign, the price cut and the exclusives began to be released, the status of the PS3 in the gaming comunity got better and better.  We have seen the impact of the 1st party exclusives a bit late this generation, because they invested in their first party studios during the recent generation.   If they would have began the transformation in the PS2 era, the PS3 would be first.

Remember how people were at first, "Sony is loosing their exclusives (3rd party), and releasing some new 1st party games; meh I dont give a damn", now people are like "HOLY MOTHER OF GOD! Sony exclusives are the best!" and those are now 1st party.   those exclusives are getting better and better with each new release, and I think that by the time the PS4 arrives, they will be even better, and the people will be like "oh sh!t, another ND game HELL YEAH!" or "another Santa Monica game => MUST BUY".



Open World-Survival-Game Days Gone

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Heavenly_King on 15 September 2012
M.U.G.E.N said:
Jay520 said:
M.U.G.E.N said:


dunno man..lol nowadays it feels like every sony dev is working on two projects

ND is definitely working on a new project

SSM's stig is making a new game

GG is making a game other than KZ Vita

MM has another game in the making other than Tearaway

SP is making one game...there was a rumor of two games too I think (need to look this one up)

Evolution is making a game...with one of the devs of PGR joining them i think we might see a new direction for Motorstorm

Yeah...PS4 is gonna have a BEAST line up of games

Wow...good stuff. 

Do you remember that one thread which listed all Sony developers and what they were currently working on? If the author isn't still updating it, I may make a new one.

hehe well I barely step out of the official vita thread nowadays so I'm not sure. But I haven't seen it in ages. so no harm in making one i guess..and we can just update it as new rumors keep dropping

I think the biggest point many seems to be missing is that...all the things i just listed are the result of sony building a strong first party throughout ps3 life cycle. they did NOT have this luxury during the early days of ps3. But now we are going in to ps4 with many many titles to look forward to even excluding third party exclusives at all

oh and don't forget

GT6/GT6 prologue etc by Polypony Digital ;

Indeed.   Sony began this transformation during recent gen. that is why the PS3 is 3rd place, but alive and kicking outselling the other consoles worldwide every week for years.  If the 1st party exclusives + MGS4 ;D, were not released for the system, the PS3 would be dead right now.   The turning point of the debacle was the release of MGS4 (incredible game) in 2008.  After that the whole vibe around the PS3 changed.  1 amazing exclusive turned the PS3 from a dying console; into a console, ready to continue fighting the good fight.   Now the console is selling really good, because of the exclusives that people at first did not give a damn, but now that the studios have a more solid position and more experience, and people react are like crazy when a new ND game or SM game is announced. And that will be getting better with the PS4.

What Sony needs right now is studios to develop new exclusive IPs for the VITA :D



Open World-Survival-Game Days Gone

o_O.Q on 15 September 2012

i've only seen mentions of the studios closed by sony, but weren't media molecule and sucker punch bought by sony?



Corey on 15 September 2012
happydolphin said:

The PS4 situation will be the same as the PS3 situation, but with possibly less multi-plats (depending on ease of porting).

Reasons:
The PS3 offered some of the best 1st party games last gen, that won't chage.
Good relations with certain studios will not change.
Tarnished relationships will stay for next gen.
The WiiU and nextbox will dominate the market worldwide except for Europe, so multi-plat nextbox/U is to be expected after 2 years in.

I expect Sony's PS4 to commercially fail, and Sony to become 3rd party gen 9.


You have seen nothing from the next Xbox and Playstation and you're alreaady making ludicrous judgements about the success of the next playstation?

I doubt there will be less multiplats, the PS3 was a nightmare for devs and yet they still managed to put over the majority of 3rd party titles, sony will learn from their mistakes and make a console easier to develop for.

The continued first party support  would make it very enticing for gamers.

If the PS3 came in at a decent price point and launched at the same time as the 360 things would have been a lot different this gen, I don't expect them to make those mistakes again.



SunofKratos on 15 September 2012

Of course.Exclusive games will be the success of the future. Right now the in dustry is trending to release only multiplats and ports for the easy cash.

So i think the only way to seperate each console are the exclusive games and the price for each console.

And of course the technical aspect. I would rather spend 100 or 200 Dollars more for the advanced console before i buy a console which is outdatet after a year or two.

And the PS3 was really lazy the first years. I mean Motorstorm and Resistance are funny games but not really system sellers. For Sony it will be important to release games like God of War, Uncharted 4, Gran Turismo, Killzone 4 in the first 2 years. Thats when they will have the biggest impact. Totrally agree on your post Jay520



Andrespetmonkey on 15 September 2012
M.U.G.E.N said:


dunno man..lol nowadays it feels like every sony dev is working on two projects

ND is definitely working on a new project - Uncharted 4

SSM's stig is making a new game - no idea

GG is making a game other than KZ Vita - new shooter for PS4, not KZ

MM has another game in the making other than Tearaway - "mature" PS4 game

SP is making one game...there was a rumor of two games too I think (need to look this one up) - no idea

Evolution is making a game...with one of the devs of PGR joining them i think we might see a new direction for Motorstorm - new racing franchise, Motorstorm is dead (apoc sold 300k).

Yeah...PS4 is gonna have a BEAST line up of games

These are my guesses. 

And yeah it fucking is! Let's not forget ND will release a game every 2/3 years or even every year now.



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